Their CBs are better, and two of them were purchased with the money our manager paid them for Maguire.
Our Collapses
- Thread starter SER19
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Why was the Leicester game at the end of the season massive? Because after pulling ahead with a run of good form, we suddenly dipped and dropped points left and right. Sound familiar?
All you seem to be saying is their clubs have been better run, despite less finances, not shown me anything they've achieved as managers. Neither has won anything in England, actually I'll give Poch credit for a League Cup.
Didn't know it was Ole that paid it. I thought that was a player our board were interested in before Ole, and pretty sure Ole has next to nothing to do with price. Just like Rodgers has very little to do with the players he gets or the price.
You can't argue with the no show in crunch moments, a pattern is there with this manager. We wouldn't accept it from any other manager, why should we with Ole. If he bombs out of the europa you can't argue about a change. Time to start winning trophies, going out with a whimper shouldn't be tolerated anymore.
Yes the manager gets a text message out of the blue saying we’ve purchased a player just turn up for the press conference please.
I’d say we’ve won and lost equally in crunch moments. PSG away, Leicester at the end of the season we could not lose and we didn’t. Liverpool in the FA Cup. City the other week. People act like we crumble under the slightest pressure which is bizarre. We have had so many comebacks. Sometimes the players just aren’t good enough or we just lose for other reasons.
Being intentionally obtuse?
The manger says if he like the player identified and if he'd like them in the team, that is pretty much the limit of their input. They have zero to do with price, and pretty little to do with intentifying the player in the first place.
What managers haven't demonstrated the same in your opinion?
This is factually incorrect
Sorry but this is just such a disingenuous argument or at least it is to the original post. I have pointed to 5 cup ties in single year, with a final in touching distance that ok, we lost, but its the manner of these losses that has a clear pattern. This isn't about one off ties but about timid failure when a final is in reach. Chelsea last season, both semi defeats to city and today were really terrible weak uninspired defeats that took no pride at all. Seville we actually played well and should have taken chances but once we went behind we were like pussy cats with 15 minutes to try salvage a european final! Id be expecting kitchen sink stuff, goalkeeper in the box and we just ran the game out and kind of shrugged. Again, even a weakened team cant lose in a manner so unworthy of United. So that's 5 examples in a calender year, without counting the same no shows against psg and leipzig (where we got interested about 80 minutes in after barely stringing a pass against a team we'd beaten 5 nil under minimal pressure)
As i said im pro ole, this isn't a go at him, but i can't comprehend how anybody who has watched us through the years can't see the common, weak failings in those games when a final was so close. Its not about losing, it's the manner of it
Maguire was intentified before Ole came. Probably by John Murtough.
Judge and Woodward deal with the purchase and price.
What am I missing?
Even if this were true - I personally think it’s debatable as City, United, Chelsea, Spurs all have big enough squads to compete across multiple cups. Pool do normally too without their injuries - it wouldn’t change the fact that managing the squad is Ole’s job.
It’s the small things that baffle me, like bringing first team players on the second leg versus Sociedad when the game was over. If anything now 5th place has fallen away the real benefit of the EL is defunct as we’ll be in the CL next year so this was probably the easiest and more logical trophy (beat Leicester and you’re two games away from a trophy) whereas EL is still a 2 legged QF, a 2 legged SF and then a final.
Personally I don’t actually mind that we went out, I mind that we were completely outplayed for most of the game.
No club does challenge on all fronts except City for a reason.
I agree with the other concerns though, and they are worth highlighting.
Crunch moments is when you win the game that gets you to a final, better still win a trophy. Beating city away when the league is done isn't one. Either is PSG in the opening game of a group stage. It's when it matters. Ole wins big games at the wrong times now and again, papers over the cracks. Shit performances against West Brom and palace and then beats city, always does enough to hang on. Time to win trophies, no more no shows. The board are a huge problem but that shit show today from team selections, in game management, subs and flat performances from his players. It's not good enough and he shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
What is shows is quite clear. At a better club, with better players, Ole hasn’t achieved what they did at lesser clubs with no real expectations.
Get a grip because you posited an argument driven by emotion and unsupported by the facts.
I don't buy this weak mentality issue. Performance vs Leicester was no different than anything we've been served the last few weeks. They were a better team today.
We do well in the League because we scrap wins against weaker sides. We are not a "Cup" team.
We do well in the League because we scrap wins against weaker sides. We are not a "Cup" team.
The facts are clear. We are where we were last season. We are still widely inconsistent, even in a 90 minute spell of football.
There are no facts to suggest Ole is improving the team. He has spent £300 million and we are in the same situation. Still slumping out of competitions against inferior competition.
Anyway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a better coach to get more out of these players. It’s as valid an opinion as your own and I’m not being anymore emotional.
you struggle with English?
You’re reaching to try to put the Sevilla semi in the same category as this one. We played well in that game.
Well again, aside from the fact we’ve reached three semi finals of cup competitions under him in two years, and are one winnable tie away from another, would say he’s been pretty decent in the cups. You don’t win the cup every year, which is why we’ve won the FA Cup 12 times in our entire history.
Secondly, we had 45 points after 29 games last season. We have 57 this season. I would say that fits anybody’s metric of signs of improvement.
Thirdly, he’s spent 250M and brought in 105 in sales, while drastically reducing the age of the squad, improving its balance, and trimming the wage bill substantially.
No one is saying he’s the messiah, but your argument is spurious and it has been since you started it. You continue on this emotional downward spiral of doubling down on an already discredited opening gambit.
You don’t like Ole, we get it. You think he’s a shit coach, we get it. But don’t use made up arguments to support it.
Teams have bad days, it happens. Welcome to football. Is this your first time watching? You’re in for a rude awakening if you think any coach is coming in and not ever having bad days or a bad run. You just decide if you are going to view it holistically, or if you are going to have wildly varying reactions based on individual performances.
It’s okay to be upset/disappointed/ even angry at losing a match, or the nature of a loss, and still be able to reconcile the fine work the manager has done across a larger sampling size.
We haven’t finished back to back seasons in the top four since Fergie retired. If we finish top three last year and this, I don’t know how anyone could say it isn’t significant progress.
Jesus fecking Christ. Grow upOle is a fecking loser. You just have to watch him and listen to him to realise this.
He leaves, no big club would hire him.
That's my Trump take on us right now. And it isn't wrong
How many bad losers do we have in the dressing room?
Ole for sure. Then I do not know.
How about all the performances in the middle that took us to second in the league, not saying they were all master pieces of good football, but to ignore all the other games and pinpoint these two specific games (where we were obviously behind fitness-wise) as a pattern is a terrible argument
So you're saying Ole who finished 14 points clear of Leicester in his first season and having De Gea who still wasn't in full decline, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, finding a fantastic talent in Greenwood, having decent talents like Fred (yes he is) Bailly, Tuanzebe. Leicester losing their best (?) defender to us and Ole spending 300m and they're still a better team than us throughout?
Maybe coaching a team is more important than people think.
That is clearly true. It it also very shallow and I would like to take a deeper view. In my mind, the main - if not only - reason for this is that last season we had Fernandes only starting February onwards, while this season we've had him since day 1. Compare the football we've played in the latter part of last season and the football we've played this season, and you won't see an improvement.
Which suggest that in terms of our performances we've actually stalled, and that there's not much scope for improvement unless we bring in other game changers like Fernandes, which is very difficult.
Bingo. You can’t win domestic trophies while playing Europa league. It’s just too much to ask for any normal squad, especially one as lacking of good back ups as ours.
This
United have won the FA Cup once in 17 years. These so called collapses have been happening long before Ole arrived as manager..
You seem very agitated about a differing opinion mate! You should get a grip
But seriously, I have never discounted the positives he has done, and have always given credit where it’s due.
I just don’t think he will ever be consistent enough to take the final steps to win something important. I love him, but I don’t think he is a top coach and I don’t think he ever will be.
It’s ok that you have your opinion and choose to focus on more points in a league with a tighter schedule having added a world class player. I see losses coming at key moments costing us any real progress this season. I see confusion on the pitch and disjointed performances and scraping points far too often. It’s ok to see two different things.
I am being perfectly reasonable, have never been abusive, always watch the games and support the team and am entitled to my opinion.
It’s not emotional and hysterical to not believe he is the right man for the job. Your opinion isn’t any more valid and you aren’t the voice of reason in the room.
Its ok, no one is upset, no one needs to calm down. We just think two different things based on what we see. It’s fine. Time will tell us who is right.
Care to explain how we do that?
We could really say the same thing about almost all our players. Right now I only see Bruno and Shaw good enough to play every week as starter in a title challenge team. Many of ours players would be good as squad players.
Pretty much every team gets worse when you take their best player out of the side. Fact is that Ole recruited him and integrated him into the side.
I struggle with the idea that dropped points against the bottom 10 and as a result of an inability to see out games are somehow more acceptable because we "weren't going to win the title anyway". Do you struggle with a basic understanding of how competitive sports work?
Depressing to think if he rejoined them tomorrow he'd be their third best center back at best
That's not the question, though. The question is, we clearly got better the moment Fernandes joined last season, and it reflected on our point tally this season because a full season with him is better than half a season with him. But compared with our performances after his early impact, has our football improved? Are we better now than how we were last season after his signing?
I said in the post you quoted that we played well. But the game ended as soon as they scored their second. We were so lax and half hearted after it the ref may as well have blown early.
We got 66 points last season which is our joint second lowest and wasn’t acceptable, that shouldn’t be the benchmark. Given how well we finished last season that 12 point improvement is going to be hard to maintain and will probably end up dropping off a bit.
I still think Ole has spent two and a half years getting us back where we were three years ago.
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