Our debt has increased 133% to £474.1 million

Lebowski

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Sh!t like this is what I was alluding to earlier.

1. These two posters are around 88% aligned.

2. To the average joe, this is all Greek to them.

And the Glazer/Woodward can and will take advantage of #2 if needs be.
Yeah, it's an oddity of the Glazer takeover that being a United supporter can now mean trying to wrap your head around PIK loans, Cayman Island tax laws and corporate equity fundraising.

At some point I'd love to write a small tome on each aspect of their ownership and why I think it's relatively unusual in comparison to other clubs to try and counter the idea that's popped up a few times in this thread of 'it's all fine, stop over reacting. You guys just don't understand corporate finance'. However ultimately I think it's common knowledge to most people that the Glazer's primary concern is extracting wealth for themselves and that our current economic system is set up so that wealthy people can do this through increasingly complex but perfectly legal means.

Whether you have a problem with it comes down to your politics and moral outlook I suppose. A radical free market adherent will have no issues with a foreign family buying a football club as a vehicle to increase their own wealth, whereas on the other end of the spectrum some people will consider the concept of United being the property of any small group of individuals as being deeply immoral.

Even parking the legality and morals, the Overton window on this stuff is interesting too. As our stagnation has continued, it seems to have become rarer to read a United fan argue that their ownership has been a net positive for the club. They've also been getting an absolute battering in the UK press over the last year or so, with a regularity and strength that I can't recall since back when the takeover was originally mooted.
 

Chesterlestreet

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However ultimately I think it's common knowledge to most people that the Glazer's primary concern is extracting wealth for themselves and that our current economic system is set up so that wealthy people can do this through increasingly complex but perfectly legal means.
Yep - sure.

But the reason why some (and in my opinion most of those aren't "Glazer apologists" in any meaningful sense of that term) fans are indeed saying "stop overreacting", or words to that effect, is that it remains very much a question whether United's ownership (structure) is the reason behind our poor results as a football club in recent years.

Or - if you want - the main reason, or even a significant reason.

They aren't primarily interested in winning major trophies - I think we can all agree on that. City's owners aren't primarily interested in that either. Nor are the money men involved with Bayern Munich, a supposedly "fan owned" club - not primarily (not from their perspective, as money men).

They all have other interests (whether it be making money or whitewashing their reputation - which ultimately is a step towards making more money *, but hey) in mind. They don't prioritize football over money (or other concerns) - in short. You have to be incredibly naive to think so, at any rate.

The Glazers have spent enough money on transfers + wages to make United competitive if you look at the overall picture. The figures speak for themselves.

* One of my favourite movie quotes:

"Makes the world go around."

"What's that?"

"Gold."

"Some people say love."

"Well, they're right too. It is love. Love of gold."
 

Adam-Utd

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The reason people were shocked was the magnitude of change, not the direction of change. If it was true that the debt had increased by 133% that should be shocking. If enough people dismissed that as "well of course we've lost that much, it's entirely explained by factors outside our control, what's the fuss" then that attitude alone would create conditions ripe for exploitation by the powerful people it's protecting (directly or indirectly).

But the figures don't appear to be accurate. Which is what makes it all the more alarming that people can just brush those numbers off as business as usual.
The fact that people were still shocked we made a loss is what baffles me. Surely they realise by now the finances won't be looking good?

I don't think 90% of people understand these reports anyway and are misled by the daunting headlines, but it was always going to be "bad"
 

Nou_Camp99

what would Souness do?
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Can't decide who I despise more... Tories or Glazers. All I know is the world would be a better place without both.
 

Steve Bruce

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Can't decide who I despise more... Tories or Glazers. All I know is the world would be a better place without both.

Can we not have so many threads with political remarks. It's very easy to turn a legit thread into a political slanging match
 

united for life

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You assume that the club should not be run as a return generating business. The business is not under threat of bankruptcy or in any dire financial state. Why would they dilute equity and thus either increase or decrease their relative ownership? It makes no sense. Also, why would they stop dividend payout? To cause the share price to crash? Again, it makes no sense.
let’s agree to disagree;)
 

SadlerMUFC

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If you say so mate :houllier:

Anyway, do you think the Glazer debt has played any part in the decline of Manchester United?
I think it's silly to think that every penny that has gone towards the debt would have instead been spent on transfers. I rememeber the debates when Ronaldo was sold and how we spent the money and it was a boring argument back then just like it is now. The way some of our supporters act I'm glad they aren't in charge of transfers because they would just spend money for the sake of spending money and waste it on buying the shiny new toy. We are a club that has always spent wisely, but also aren't afraid to splash big on some occassions. But for the most part, those big spends haven't worked out. Yet we seem to have supporters who like to blame the debt for us not spending big more often when the truth isn't so crystal clear. Sure, the debt has had effect on the club and I absolutely hate what the Glazers have done. But business' are run with debt and believe it or not, Manchester United is a business and debt isn't always a bad thing. Just read some of the educated posts that are in this very threat. "Debt" doesn't need to be the trigger word that it is...
 

UnitedFan93

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I think it's silly to think that every penny that has gone towards the debt would have instead been spent on transfers. I rememeber the debates when Ronaldo was sold and how we spent the money and it was a boring argument back then just like it is now. The way some of our supporters act I'm glad they aren't in charge of transfers because they would just spend money for the sake of spending money and waste it on buying the shiny new toy. We are a club that has always spent wisely, but also aren't afraid to splash big on some occassions. But for the most part, those big spends haven't worked out. Yet we seem to have supporters who like to blame the debt for us not spending big more often when the truth isn't so crystal clear. Sure, the debt has had effect on the club and I absolutely hate what the Glazers have done. But business' are run with debt and believe it or not, Manchester United is a business and debt isn't always a bad thing. Just read some of the educated posts that are in this very threat. "Debt" doesn't need to be the trigger word that it is...
Got there in the end, thanks.
 

Lebowski

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Yep - sure.

But the reason why some (and in my opinion most of those aren't "Glazer apologists" in any meaningful sense of that term) fans are indeed saying "stop overreacting", or words to that effect, is that it remains very much a question whether United's ownership (structure) is the reason behind our poor results as a football club in recent years.

Or - if you want - the main reason, or even a significant reason.

They aren't primarily interested in winning major trophies - I think we can all agree on that. City's owners aren't primarily interested in that either. Nor are the money men involved with Bayern Munich, a supposedly "fan owned" club - not primarily (not from their perspective, as money men).

They all have other interests (whether it be making money or whitewashing their reputation - which ultimately is a step towards making more money *, but hey) in mind. They don't prioritize football over money (or other concerns) - in short. You have to be incredibly naive to think so, at any rate.

The Glazers have spent enough money on transfers + wages to make United competitive if you look at the overall picture. The figures speak for themselves.

* One of my favourite movie quotes:
I don't strongly disagree with anything you said to be honest, but I think you're either conciously or unconsciously disregarding a few of the exceptions that make United fans feel uniquely 'exploited' by our owners.

Unlike all the other clubs you named, our club was purchased against strong fan protests in a hostile takeover and a leveraged buy out that saddled the club with a level of debt unprecedented in football.

It was a completely unwanted and unneeded takeover with no benefit to the supporters of the club.

The elected CEOs of fan owned clubs like Bayern, Real and Barca may be motivated by money, but they have maintained low ticket prices, incredibly high on field standards, and a larger voice for fans (see Barca's socios triggering a vote of no confidence in Barthomeo to replace the board).

Other PL clubs with foreign owners have seen incredible levels of investment and been taken from relative obscurity to on field success.

In contrast, not only have United's owners not invested a penny but they've siphoned millions out of the club with no accountability to fans.

They've also presided over the demise of a club once considered one of the most well run and successful clubs in the world to the state we're in today with a comical CEO and embarrassing failure after failure.

It's easy to say 'most football club owners and executives are more concerned with making money than winning trophies', and they probably are. But there are levels. United's owners are perhaps the worst combination for supporters - rapaciously greedy and at worst completely incompetent or at best largely ambivalent about on field success and supporters concerns.
 

ATXRedDevil

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From what I understand about US tax law, Delaware is basically a mini Luxembourg and is favoured for it's shareholder anonymity so yeah, it doesn't surprise me that the duty for disclosure is considerably less!

If I remember correctly you are a US tax lawyer so you might get a kick out of the level of statutory disclosure required for limited companies in the UK - https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02570509 that's the Companies House page for one of the private limited holding companies in the United group. The information contained on a private company's statutory accounts and on directors and shareholders will probably surprise you!

Your question about how foreign holding companies fit into the picture is a complex one to answer. It's true that a number of clubs are owned through overseas holding companies but all of these structures will still have a holding company in the UK which needs to statutory disclosure criteria. In short it is very unusual for football clubs (or any company that generates profit in the UK) to engage in the sort of base erosion or profit shifting that Amazon / Facebook etc are famous for because of our tax law. To grossly over simplify our controlling foreign company tax laws, revenue generated in the UK generally can't be siphoned to other jurisdictions to prevent paying tax. There was a good study on the corporate structure of UK clubs by the Tax Justice Network. To paraphrase, the corporate structure of UK clubs is designed to allow foreign entities to funnel money into UK companies with minimal oversight and shareholder anonymity, but not to funnel profits out. Foreign holding companies bring the larger existential tax avoidance issue for sale or disposal, but there's currently no evidence that UK clubs are extracting operating profit to pay dividends via foreign parent companies. Again, it's pretty unusual for football clubs to declare dividends full stop.

I do agree with your conclusion that they aren't doing anything illegal or that unusual for corporate finance. It is however very unusual for a football club. The LBO and hostile takeover was unique in football as far as I'm aware. So is the level of debt in the club to non connected parties (except for spurs, but they borrowed to build a stadium). So is the dividend policy and the level of money they extract. As was the decision for a public share offering to refinance expensive PIK debt.

One question which you may be the perfect person to answer... as you're likely aware, United the PLC are incorporated in the Cayman Islands. Most reporting say that although this will increase the Glazer family's personal tax bill (for the reason I stated above - they'll be paying tax twice in some cases), it was done to give anonymity and a sweeter deal to new public shareholders. This makes sense since they moved the club to the Cayman Islands shortly before the decision to publicly offer stock. However... The Glazer family ownership of the PLC is also notoriously complicated and is constructed of several family trusts, almost all incorporated in Nevada. Does any reason jump out at you why they'd pick Nevada rather than say, Delaware?

It's a tiny point, but the club have always refused to comment on why their corporate setup is structured the way it is, and it's always annoyed me that I can't see the logic of family trusts in Nevada.
Appreciate the insight here. The lawyer-nerd in me enjoys it.

As to the Nevada question, I’m actually a corporate attorney. My practice was historically public company reporting, m&a and capital markets transactions, but I recently moved to a new firm where I’m only doing capital markets/securities work now.

Long way for me to get to the point that my practice very rarely requires me to know anything about trusts, and if it does, it’s for section 16/13 beneficial ownership reporting requirements. As a result, I can’t opine on the use of Nevada trusts but I’m sure there’s some tax or privacy benefits under the state’s statutes because in the course of many transactions I’ve done I’ve also noticed a lot of wealthy owners with their trusts set up under Nevada law without an obvious (residency) reason for that choice.

the cayman incorporation makes obvious sense for the tax benefits, but having worked on a transaction for a cayman incorporated client that was going to issue a considerable amount of shares to an EU-incorporated seller of multiple businesses, it seems the EU isn’t too fond of those Cayman tax codes. The seller wanted us to reincorporate into a non-tax haven jurisdiction as part of the deal.. not sure if there are similar issues in the UK with the Cayman tax scheme, but I’m sure United’s lawyers are earning their fees based on the club’s structure..
 

Lebowski

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Appreciate the insight here. The lawyer-nerd in me enjoys it.

As to the Nevada question, I’m actually a corporate attorney. My practice was historically public company reporting, m&a and capital markets transactions, but I recently moved to a new firm where I’m only doing capital markets/securities work now.

Long way for me to get to the point that my practice very rarely requires me to know anything about trusts, and if it does, it’s for section 16/13 beneficial ownership reporting requirements. As a result, I can’t opine on the use of Nevada trusts but I’m sure there’s some tax or privacy benefits under the state’s statutes because in the course of many transactions I’ve done I’ve also noticed a lot of wealthy owners with their trusts set up under Nevada law without an obvious (residency) reason for that choice.

the cayman incorporation makes obvious sense for the tax benefits, but having worked on a transaction for a cayman incorporated client that was going to issue a considerable amount of shares to an EU-incorporated seller of multiple businesses, it seems the EU isn’t too fond of those Cayman tax codes. The seller wanted us to reincorporate into a non-tax haven jurisdiction as part of the deal.. not sure if there are similar issues in the UK with the Cayman tax scheme, but I’m sure United’s lawyers are earning their fees based on the club’s structure..
Interesting, thanks for the insight.

UK solicitor here and I do a lot of corporate stuff. It's good to know that between us, if the Cafe ever got a few billion together, we'd have the legals on both sides of the Atlantic to purchase the club covered!