Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

[Annihilate Now!]

I am convinced our defence either a) don't communicate with each other during games or b) do and are feckin' horrible at it.

 

[Bestietom]

No our defence still needs serious coaching.

 

[Ekeke]

Its the CBs but also the protection from the DMs isnt right. Also our fullbacks are expected to get all the way up the pitch because we play with inside wingers, which means we're vulnerable on the counter attack. The CBs and DMs need to be able to deal with that and they are too weak defensively to do that right now.

 

[Strelok]

Its the CBs but also the protection from the DMs isnt right. Also our fullbacks are expected to get all the way up the pitch because we play with inside wingers, which means we're vulnerable on the counter attack. The CBs and DMs need to be able to deal with that and they are too weak defensively to do that right now.

Imo the tactic in the last match is not right. Our wingers rarely track back, Matic, Pogba, Maguire are slow af, Lindelof is Lindelof yet our FB, especially AWB were asked to be really up high when we attacked. Which lead to our right wing repeatedly exposed again and again. It's a bloody miracle that we only conceded one goal from all that.

AWB is basically shit going forward, why didn't Ole just leave him at the back? It's not like he can add much to our attack if he goes forward. I'm a big OleIn but imo that's some very questionable tactical decision from him.

 

[harms]

Based on what we saw against Brighton, I believe it is fixed.
We brought in a player on a free transfer and he has solved our defensive issues.
His name is T. Woodwork.
He also goes by other nicknames: T.Post and T.Crossbar.

Pretty sure that his first name is Ed. Ed Woodwork.

 

[Ekeke]

Imo the tactic in the last match is not right. Our wingers rarely track back, Matic, Pogba, Maguire are slow af, Lindelof is Lindelof yet our FB, especially AWB were asked to be really up high when we attacked. Which lead to our right wing repeatedly exposed again and again. It's a bloody miracle that we only conceded one goal from all that.

AWB is basically shit going forward, why didn't Ole just leave him at the back? It's not like he can add much to our attack if he goes forward. I'm a big OleIn but imo that's some very questionable tactical decision from him.

Its so that Greenwood doesn't have to be out by the touchline as a proper winger. He gets to play inside in the spaces where he gets the ball and shoots from the edge of the box, which is where all his goals come from.

If we had a proper winger we wouldnt need the width from a fullback, but this is a continuation of Mata and Lingard playing inside with Valencia becoming the right winger. It didnt work out for us then, and its not AWB's strength either.

 

[Strelok]

Its so that Greenwood doesn't have to be out by the touchline as a proper winger. He gets to play inside in the spaces where he gets the ball and shoots from the edge of the box, which is where all his goals come from.

If we had a proper winger we wouldnt need the width from a fullback, but this is a continuation of Mata and Lingard playing inside with Valencia becoming the right winger. It didnt work out for us then, and its not AWB's strength either.

The point is with or without AWB up there our right wing is pretty much the same, aka useless. AWB is there or not Greenwood will still drift inside anyway. And there's basically no overlap, no link, no pass between those two.

What's the point of having him that high up so all he can do is to pass the ball back to a midfielder or Lindelof? And when we lose the ball our wing is totally exposed as no one can cover. We must think about the balance of gain and risk here. The gain is basically nothing while the risk is huge.

Agreed on the RW though, we seriously need a proper RW.

 

[Dante]

The double pivot (Fred-McTominay) was the reason our defence looked more secure. Those two actually pressed and tracked runners. For a slow paced CB pairing, this was crucial.

The flat midfield two (Matic-Pogba) caused our solidity to drop off a cliff after project restart. Opponents didn't realise it in the first few game. But the moment they did, it became everybody's tactic against us.

 

[Adnan]

Its the CBs but also the protection from the DMs isnt right. Also our fullbacks are expected to get all the way up the pitch because we play with inside wingers, which means we're vulnerable on the counter attack. The CBs and DMs need to be able to deal with that and they are too weak defensively to do that right now.

Completely agree with you. We just don't have the players either at DM or CB that can provide the defensive balance in such a attack minded approach.

We have some solutions already at the club like Bailly who has the potential to help us defend high up the pitch in isolation. What we don't have is a DM who can provide that balance high up the pitch and i'm quite surprised as to why one with the requisite attributes hasn't been targeted.

 

[Ekeke]

The point is with or without AWB up there our right wing is pretty much the same, aka useless. AWB is there or not Greenwood will still drift inside anyway. And there's basically no overlap, no link, no pass between those two.

What's the point of having him that high up so all he can do is to pass the ball back to a midfielder or Lindelof? And when we lose the ball our wing is totally exposed as no one can cover. We must think about the balance of gain and risk here. The gain is basically nothing while the risk is huge.

Agreed on the RW though, we seriously need a proper RW.

Its not to be a particularly useful right wing option, its just so that someone is providing width so the opposition cant be congested and narrow through the middle where all our attacks come from with inside wingers trying to score. If we dont have the fullbacks offering width high up the pitch the opposition can just defend the width of their box and we'd never have shooting oppertunities or spaces for Bruno or Pogba to play a pass through. So we need to stretch the opposition out and give them more to think about, the fullbacks are the extra players who can be passed to or might get a cross in that needs to be defended so an opposition player needs to be looking after them.

You might think he's useless but if the opposition just leaves him completely free and never confronts him on the right eventually he'll get a decent ball into the box. He did it last season. So no team does that, there's always 1 player with him. If he doesnt do this then Greenwood then has a couple of players to beat everytime he wants to try and make something happen and that isnt his strength right now. He's not a dazzling dribbler. He's someone who has has been excellent with getting his shots away and into the back of the net from just outside or just inside the box.

 

[hungrywing]

The double pivot (Fred-McTominay) was the reason our defence looked more secure. Those two actually pressed and tracked runners. For a slow paced CB pairing, this was crucial.

The flat midfield two (Matic-Pogba) caused our solidity to drop off a cliff after project restart. Opponents didn't realise it in the first few game. But the moment they did, it became everybody's tactic against us.

Fingers crossed Ole realizes this soon.

Heck, he might know it but is being forced to play Pogba.

If he's thinking he can instill into Pogba an elite mentality that he'll never have, we're in for a rocky season.

 

[onetwo3oclock4oclockrock]

The double pivot (Fred-McTominay) was the reason our defence looked more secure. Those two actually pressed and tracked runners. For a slow paced CB pairing, this was crucial.

The flat midfield two (Matic-Pogba) caused our solidity to drop off a cliff after project restart. Opponents didn't realise it in the first few game. But the moment they did, it became everybody's tactic against us.

Still we conceded only 0,66 goal per league match after project restart, and 1,34 per league match the rest of the season.

 

[Ekeke]

Still we conceded only 0,66 goal per league match after project restart, and 1,34 per league match the rest of the season.

Yep. That transformation came after Bruno came in and teams were scared of our attack again because we actually played some decent football and scored goals, albeit lots of penalties

 

[032Devil]

Our playing style is part of the problem. Eight of our players attack leaving two in defence. When the opposition attack we are run ragged because our defence and attack are too slow coming back. Against Brighton AWB was woeful: a good defender has suddenly become bad. But its not his fault a lone. Greenwood was way too slow in running back and supporting the defence.

Our closing down of the opposition is as bad as teams at the bottom of the table. We allowed Brighton to play and they did. United players don't get any closer to the opposition players than 2 to 3 yards allowing them play and pass comfortable.

We played in second gear except when Brighton levelled at 2-2.

I know its old-fashioned but we need to revert back to 4-3-3 only because we can't seem to find a Keane or a Robson.

Besides that I still think we have the same problem as City and that is we've had a very short summer break and the players are not up to speed.

 

[Strelok]

Its not to be a particularly useful right wing option, its just so that someone is providing width so the opposition cant be congested and narrow through the middle where all our attacks come from with inside wingers trying to score. If we dont have the fullbacks offering width high up the pitch the opposition can just defend the width of their box and we'd never have shooting oppertunities or spaces for Bruno or Pogba to play a pass through. So we need to stretch the opposition out and give them more to think about, the fullbacks are the extra players who can be passed to or might get a cross in that needs to be defended so an opposition player needs to be looking after them.

You might think he's useless but if the opposition just leaves him completely free and never confronts him on the right eventually he'll get a decent ball into the box. He did it last season. So no team does that, there's always 1 player with him. If he doesnt do this then Greenwood then has a couple of players to beat everytime he wants to try and make something happen and that isnt his strength right now. He's not a dazzling dribbler. He's someone who has has been excellent with getting his shots away and into the back of the net from just outside or just inside the box.

Agreed on your point to strech the opposition defence out.

Still I don't think it's worth the risk. Especially when we have literally no one capable to cover him. And lately teams always put at least two players to block Greenwood whenever he has the ball near the penalty box. Even if AWB is up there it's still at least two.

We really really need a proper RW. It's purely criminal if that is not addressed this windows.

 

[romufc]

This issue of playing out the back has only come about since Pogba has come into the team if I am not wrong?

Prior to lockdown, was this a big issue? we used to dominate the ball but couldn't create chances.

Is it worth dropping Pogba and seing what kind of change that makes to the team? Ole's stubbornness to play him regardless may be his downfall.

 

[A-man]

This issue of playing out the back has only come about since Pogba has come into the team if I am not wrong?

Prior to lockdown, was this a big issue? we used to dominate the ball but couldn't create chances.

Is it worth dropping Pogba and seing what kind of change that makes to the team? Ole's stubbornness to play him regardless may be his downfall.

When we play our way out of the press, it is often a few one touch passes in triangle, but Pogba seems to never do one touch passes. Normally he is great at keeping the ball under pressure, but when is facing backwards and have no clue where the pressing forward comes from, he has lost the ball a few times.

 

[romufc]

When we play our way out of the press, it is often a few one touch passes in triangle, but Pogba seems to never do one touch passes. Normally he is great at keeping the ball under pressure, but when is facing backwards and have no clue where the pressing forward comes from, he has lost the ball a few times.

That is what a transition is, quick triangles beat the press and you are on the attack. Pogba loves to receive the ball hold it and then look to pass after doing a skill move.

I understand his skill and ability but 80% of the game should be played simple. Receive and pass, within 3 seconds the ball should be passed.

If we are 1/2 up in a game and the opponent is not pressing then he can take longer.

IMO he needs to be dropped and watch other players do it, only way he will learn.

 

[Ekeke]

Its not Pogba slowing things down, because in his place McTominay does the same thing. The main thing he does on the ball is run an opponent who usually gives up a freekick. Pogba will run a player and not go down, he'll straight up beat his opponent and we can continue the attack.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is not only due to Pogba. It is the way we play. We do not have to go direct to Pogba. If he is the player responsible for creating then it can be passed to him to create. It does not have to go to him from Maguire or Lindelof. This is where I feel the coaching is of basic standard and they do not seem to have brains. Our defence do get under pressure because of the way we play.

 

[A-man]

That is what a transition is, quick triangles beat the press and you are on the attack. Pogba loves to receive the ball hold it and then look to pass after doing a skill move.

I understand his skill and ability but 80% of the game should be played simple. Receive and pass, within 3 seconds the ball should be passed.

If we are 1/2 up in a game and the opponent is not pressing then he can take longer.

IMO he needs to be dropped and watch other players do it, only way he will learn.

Yes, I mean higher up the pitch Pogba doesn’t take the same risk if he loses the ball and if he is successful he creates a chance. Just outside his own box there is a huge risk if he loses the ball and not really any opportunity if he is succesful.

The triangles are efficient even if they often end back with the ball at the CB, at least the opponents need to work hard to keep their press, and eventually there will be an opening.

 

[romufc]

Yes, I mean higher up the pitch Pogba doesn’t take the same risk if he loses the ball and if he is successful he creates a chance. Just outside his own box there is a huge risk if he loses the ball and not really any opportunity if he is succesful.

The triangles are efficient even if they often end back with the ball at the CB, at least the opponents need to work hard to keep their press, and eventually there will be an opening.

I agree, but IMO Bruno is alot more effective in that position than Pogba. He has the more to his armour playing one two and making runs than Pogba does higher up.

Agreed, which is what some people fail to realise, its not matter of every time you pass you need to rip the opponent apart, its about keeping the ball moving in turn keeping the opponents chasing the ball.

When Maguire is waiting on the ball and seing what pass is available, the team is set and organised which means when the ball is played they can press because they are marking. However; if Maguire passed the ball 3 seconds earlier, the team wouldnt be set.

Moving the ball at pace is so important, currently we move it so slow.

 

[A-man]

I agree, but IMO Bruno is alot more effective in that position than Pogba. He has the more to his armour playing one two and making runs than Pogba does higher up.

Agreed, which is what some people fail to realise, its not matter of every time you pass you need to rip the opponent apart, its about keeping the ball moving in turn keeping the opponents chasing the ball.

When Maguire is waiting on the ball and seing what pass is available, the team is set and organised which means when the ball is played they can press because they are marking. However; if Maguire passed the ball 3 seconds earlier, the team wouldnt be set.

Moving the ball at pace is so important, currently we move it so slow.

Both Pogba and Maguire are skilled and talented on the ball, there is no reason at all that they should be two weaknesses when we try to play under pressure or play from the back. In my opinion this is something the coach must train his players to do. Both how they should move without ball and how to pass. Could be that Ole doesn’t have that knowledge.

 

[El Jefe]

Its the CBs but also the protection from the DMs isnt right. Also our fullbacks are expected to get all the way up the pitch because we play with inside wingers, which means we're vulnerable on the counter attack. The CBs and DMs need to be able to deal with that and they are too weak defensively to do that right now.

This makes it more baffling that we won't be signing a CB or DM this window. It was obvious that we needed this in our team. People got really excited with our play post lockdown but what I saw was a team that looked very weak out of possession. Slow to win the ball back and can be cut through easily. The two PL games have severely highlighted these weaknesses.

Some teams are built to withstand attacks but our team under any bit of consistent pressure will fold. A defensive spine of Lindelof, Maguire, Matic and Pogba just screams mediocre to me.

 

[Born2Lose]

This issue of playing out the back has only come about since Pogba has come into the team if I am not wrong?

Prior to lockdown, was this a big issue? we used to dominate the ball but couldn't create chances.

Is it worth dropping Pogba and seing what kind of change that makes to the team? Ole's stubbornness to play him regardless may be his downfall.

This. Think we're really missing Fred's running and hard work. Also think Bruno played better before Pogba's return too.

 

[BorisManUtd]

It's the same defence that conceded 36 goals last season, least goals conceded after City and Liverpool. Already 5 this season but I think it will come good, midfield didn't help at all in these 2 games.

 

[Stacks]

The double pivot (Fred-McTominay) was the reason our defence looked more secure. Those two actually pressed and tracked runners. For a slow paced CB pairing, this was crucial.

The flat midfield two (Matic-Pogba) caused our solidity to drop off a cliff after project restart. Opponents didn't realise it in the first few game. But the moment they did, it became everybody's tactic against us.

Fingers crossed Ole realizes this soon.

Heck, he might know it but is being forced to play Pogba.

If he's thinking he can instill into Pogba an elite mentality that he'll never have, we're in for a rocky season.

Matic appeared to play as a CB, with Bruno in a free role giving us no shape in Midfield and Pogba left to play CM alone

 

[Foxbatt]

Look at the way Liverpool move without the ball. That's what we need to do. We don't know how to move without the ball.
Our defense gets under pressure because we don't have any plans.

 

[hungrywing]

Matic appeared to play as a CB, with Bruno in a free role giving us no shape in Midfield and Pogba left to play CM alone

You're right. Point is that once Pogba/Matic got found out, teams have been playing the way that Dante described.

 

[romufc]

Both Pogba and Maguire are skilled and talented on the ball, there is no reason at all that they should be two weaknesses when we try to play under pressure or play from the back. In my opinion this is something the coach must train his players to do. Both how they should move without ball and how to pass. Could be that Ole doesn’t have that knowledge.

I agree, the coach has to say to them, stop taking so long on the ball. The problem I see is that those two players know, they can do whatever they want and never be dropped. Ole has to make a stand one of these days and drop one of them. Doing that will have a bigger impact through the whole team. When you see a player of that calibre dropped, every other player will look at it thinking... I might be next if I dont play well.

At the moment we have AWB, Maguire, Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford all immune from being dropped.

Now defensively, those same players are not working hard enough for the team either.

 

[Sandikan]

I agree, the coach has to say to them, stop taking so long on the ball. The problem I see is that those two players know, they can do whatever they want and never be dropped. Ole has to make a stand one of these days and drop one of them. Doing that will have a bigger impact through the whole team. When you see a player of that calibre dropped, every other player will look at it thinking... I might be next if I dont play well.

At the moment we have AWB, Maguire, Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford all immune from being dropped.

Now defensively, those same players are not working hard enough for the team either.

Wan Bissaka was left out the first game and Pogba was subbed last game.
They are generally definite starters but they will be taken out when needs be.

 

[romufc]

Wan Bissaka was left out the first game and Pogba was subbed last game.
They are generally definite starters but they will be taken out when needs be.

Wan Bissaka wasn't fit thats why.

Being substituted is not the same as being dropped, it sends a bigger message when you drop a player from the starting line up.

When was the last time Pogba, Rashford, Maguire, Martial, Bruno were dropped? Surely you cannot say that they have been playing well either.

 

[A-man]

I agree, the coach has to say to them, stop taking so long on the ball. The problem I see is that those two players know, they can do whatever they want and never be dropped. Ole has to make a stand one of these days and drop one of them. Doing that will have a bigger impact through the whole team. When you see a player of that calibre dropped, every other player will look at it thinking... I might be next if I dont play well.

At the moment we have AWB, Maguire, Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford all immune from being dropped.

Now defensively, those same players are not working hard enough for the team either.

I agree with what you write about if you don’t work hard enough, you should risk getting dropped. Also if you don’t play well. But the most important is to play according to the tactics. If you don’t follow the tactics, the plan, move the way you should, etc, you should be dropped.

I am neither pro nor agaisnt Ole, but I don’t see that he has implemented a plan how we, as example, play our way out of press. I don’t see any pattern of how the midfielders move except the annoying one when Matic/Pogba/Fred drop too much to collect the ball.

Edit: one example is how Pogba plays to his strengths instead of what’s best for the team in a certain situation. He doesn’t do one touch triangles when under pressure, instead he dribbles and tries to find an opening big pass. He’s great at that but it’s not always the right situation. This is a player who should be better at adapting to tactics imo.

 

[romufc]

I agree with what you write about if you don’t work hard enough, you should risk getting dropped. Also if you don’t play well. But the most important is to play according to the tactics. If you don’t follow the tactics, the plan, move the way you should, etc, you should be dropped.

I am neither pro nor agaisnt Ole, but I don’t see that he has implemented a plan how we, as example, play our way out of press. I don’t see any pattern of how the midfielders move except the annoying one when Matic/Pogba/Fred drop too much to collect the ball.

I am about 65% Ole in but this is the exact reason why I am only 65%, the tactics are some what baffling.
I will give you an example, Arsenal play out from the back, it seems like they know exactly who to pass to and when. With us, because our players take so long on the ball, the pass we are meant to play, is pressed which makes the 3rd pass harder.

Our pattern is Maguire, Lindelof, AWB -> loss of possession. Surely when you get to AWB, either Greenwood has to drop so the line ball is an option, or Pogba has to come close so he can play it into him.

We also need Martial to make runs in the channel sometimes so that we can turn their defence sometimes.

Anyway lets see how we get on in the next couple weeks.

 

[A-man]

I am about 65% Ole in but this is the exact reason why I am only 65%, the tactics are some what baffling.
I will give you an example, Arsenal play out from the back, it seems like they know exactly who to pass to and when. With us, because our players take so long on the ball, the pass we are meant to play, is pressed which makes the 3rd pass harder.

Our pattern is Maguire, Lindelof, AWB -> loss of possession. Surely when you get to AWB, either Greenwood has to drop so the line ball is an option, or Pogba has to come close so he can play it into him.

We also need Martial to make runs in the channel sometimes so that we can turn their defence sometimes.

Anyway lets see how we get on in the next couple weeks.

I can see how much weaker teams still have a plan and they try really hard to play according to it, even when they struggle in a game. It’s annoying. We need to take this next essential step. Not just buy another player.

 

[Smores]

Some good analysis in the last pages, it's baffling we can see it but the coaches can't. We need a new defensive coach ideally because I'm not sure our current lot grasp the issues.

I'm very surprised Carrick hasn't addressed our midfield setup being isolated. When he was at his best here he operated under circulating the ball but he always had a midfield partner for the easy pass if needed. How can he not see Pogba is isolated.

 

[youmeletsfly]

We're not proactive in covering for our other players (shaw for maguire - AWB for Lindelof, etc) and we're not proactive in switching places, something that was an issue since fecking Mourinho.
During the last game I saw Lindelof at least 3 times covering for fecking Shaw because Maguire was sleeping which is fecking dogshit for an 80 mil defender. One of those 3 where Lindelof was covering towards Shaw's side resulted in a goal.(the one in which half the forum is complaining that Lindelof is not marking anyone)

 

[Foxbatt]

Some good analysis in the last pages, it's baffling we can see it but the coaches can't. We need a new defensive coach ideally because I'm not sure our current lot grasp the issues.

I'm very surprised Carrick hasn't addressed our midfield setup being isolated. When he was at his best here he operated under circulating the ball but he always had a midfield partner for the easy pass if needed. How can he not see Pogba is isolated.

I remember some high stats of Carrick and Fletcher passes in one match and then the detail was found that they passed between themselves. But the lack of movement is because of the coaching. Unless you practice and learn players do not know where and how to move.

 

[Rozay]

When we play our way out of the press, it is often a few one touch passes in triangle, but Pogba seems to never do one touch passes. Normally he is great at keeping the ball under pressure, but when is facing backwards and have no clue where the pressing forward comes from, he has lost the ball a few times.

We cannot possibly play triangles to advance up the pitch because most of the time, we have one player in midfield. I’m genuinely curious about it, but our big plan most of the game is to literally play Pogba in central midfield alone, Matic at centre half, and Bruno at centre forward.

 

[Rozay]

The double pivot (Fred-McTominay) was the reason our defence looked more secure. Those two actually pressed and tracked runners. For a slow paced CB pairing, this was crucial.

The flat midfield two (Matic-Pogba) caused our solidity to drop off a cliff after project restart. Opponents didn't realise it in the first few game. But the moment they did, it became everybody's tactic against us.

This is also a very good point. Our midfield simply doesn’t work for me. Fred and McTominay are clearly inferior players to Matic and Pogba - but it was at least a midfield pairing that worked. Currently, I’m conflicted between almost having a preference for Fred and Scott over Pogba and Matic. We obviously lose something, but then we gain other things.

I still feel that Bruno wasn’t the midfielder we should have gone for in January, unless Pogba was to be sold (or Bruno was to come in in the role VDB has now as back up). We had a working system with Fred, Matic/Scott and Lingard or Pereira in front of them. We had Pogba out injured as a primary creative midfielder. I think, and most of the talk on here at the time was that we couldn’t wait for Pogba to come back and remove Lingard/Pereira from the team. I don’t think anyone wanted him to come back to replace what we had built in Fred/Scott. That said, there was also an acknowledgement that Fred/Scott wasn’t the highest quality. I always thought the midfielder we would target would be one that allows us to keep what we had gotten from that duo, while improving the quality of it significantly. I wanted a player like Tonali or Barella for example, who could play in to double pivot with Pogba in front. Of course, if PP was to leave, then he’d need to be replaced too, but we still needed a better deep midfielder. Pogba cannot do that role well enough, especially not alongside Matic, and defensively, we are highly susceptible. Yeah, he gives us better passing (usually, not lately!), but there are also specialist deep midfielders who are good on the ball. Camavinga would have been a phenomenal signing for example, like a far better version of Fred.

Pogba doesn’t know how to defend well enough for me, and I doubt he ever will. It isn’t even a lack of effort or attitude, it is an actual lack of ability to do it well. He is a persistent fouler because he doesn’t know how to tackle well, and whenever an opponent tries to run away from him, I am confident he won’t just let them go, but I’m also certain he will climb all over them and haul them to the ground! He also isn’t built for the press. His physical profile doesn’t suit it. He makes big strides, but not shorter shuttle runs, which are needed to avoid being passed around.