Problem is I feel a big part of it is due to the midfield duo we play. It means we have seven defensive minded players on the pitch and there's a price to pay for it in attack.
Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?
- Thread starter Untd55
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
The issue to get this record is we have had to play 6 predominantly defensive players, leaving us with only 4 attackers. I think the defence is still a major issue as we have to sacrifice a lot for it to work.
I see why people are blaming midfield for being too defensive oriented, but I have never seen us playing through an organised pressing like today from Arsenal. We had two attacking midfielders, and two (best available) attackers. There was nobody who could provide natural width and danger from the wings.
You could make a case to play van de Beek, but it's all "on paper" kind of discussion. We weren't even that good against RB with Donny on the pitch.
We're decent defensively, but need to work on a system to improve going forward. It's not about Fred - McTominay being shit.
You could make a case to play van de Beek, but it's all "on paper" kind of discussion. We weren't even that good against RB with Donny on the pitch.
We're decent defensively, but need to work on a system to improve going forward. It's not about Fred - McTominay being shit.
Blame is probably too big a word. Anyhow, the issue isn't the attack, it's the defence. Since Spurs we've been using a more defensive oriented midfield, which means it's hard to judge the backline's improvement.
All due respect to the system, though, as long as we play with two midfielders and two full backs who are limited offensively, so will the entire team be.
After the Spurs game, something had to be done, and fixing the defence was the most obvious thing imo. We changed to a more defensive /better balanced (depending on who you ask) midfield. But it is not like we went from scoring heaps of goals to nothing.
If we look at the PL and CL matches before and after Spurs.
Until Spurs:
1-3 loss vs Palace
3-2 win vs Brighton
1-6 loss vs Spurs
5 goals scored and 11 conceded
After:
4-1 win vs Newcastle
2-1 win vs PSG
0-0 vs Chelsea
5-0 win vs Leipzig
0-1 loss vs Arsenal
11 goals scored and 3 conceded (of which 2 own goals and 1 penalty)
If we look at the PL and CL matches before and after Spurs.
Until Spurs:
1-3 loss vs Palace
3-2 win vs Brighton
1-6 loss vs Spurs
5 goals scored and 11 conceded
After:
4-1 win vs Newcastle
2-1 win vs PSG
0-0 vs Chelsea
5-0 win vs Leipzig
0-1 loss vs Arsenal
11 goals scored and 3 conceded (of which 2 own goals and 1 penalty)
Defence isn't a big issue for me. The Spurs result was a bit of a freak result scoreline wise.
Chelsea and Arsenal games again highlighted we find it hard to break teams down when they sit in. Midfield and Forward line didn't play well at all yesterday. Midfield didn't look balanced, despite functioning extremely well in the Champions League, and the forwards didn't get any service. Cavani hardly touched the ball when he came on.
Chelsea and Arsenal games again highlighted we find it hard to break teams down when they sit in. Midfield and Forward line didn't play well at all yesterday. Midfield didn't look balanced, despite functioning extremely well in the Champions League, and the forwards didn't get any service. Cavani hardly touched the ball when he came on.
We struggled to create much in two of the last five matches, in which we didn't score and dropped five points, while late goals made the Newcastle and Leipzig scores look better than the performances were.
The issue is there. We need to find a balance between protecting the backline and giving our attack the most options. Longer term, we need to improve the backline so it doesn't need as much protection.
There is a clearly a balance issue still there. We want to play fairly high up the pitch but have two slow CBs. So we end up playing a double pivot to stop counters, which means our midfield has less creativity. We play without natural wingers, but our full backs don't provide width. I like AWB and Maguire but we've spent £130m on two defenders with fairly big flaws for their positions.
It is hard to say if our struggle comes from too defensive set-up or poor performance from attacking players. Against Arsenal we had periods where we had a high line and played around Arsenal who dropped back, but we hardly created anything. It's too easy to blame everything on the defence, that they need more protection than what is normal. It's not that simple. I don't know many successful backlines that can manage without any protection from the midfield. We saw how we scored 5 goals on the Bundesliga leaders, and one reason was because of their poor protection from the midfield. When it comes to the defensive midfielders, they are very limited in finding ways through the midfield. That is probably why Matic came on. It might be that we need one better DM, instead of 2 average, or two who are better footballers.
Against Arsenal, Pogba and Fernandes were marked - and that was that, we didn't have anything else to offer. We weren't going to get any creativity or a game-changing move from our midfield players.
Football is simple. You have a better chance when your players have more to their game. If you've got midfielders who can both shield the backline and be creative and contribute to the attack, you're in a good position. We don't have that and while previously we took more chances with our selection - as I think Pogba is suspect when he plays a more defensive role - in recent games we prefer our more defensive oriented midfielders. Sure, every defence needs shielding, but if you use two players to do that, it comes with a cost.
It’s a bit more complicated than that. Agaisnt Arsenal the tactics was totally off, doesn’t mean the whole concept with some protection is wrong. It was the key to winning against PSG imo. One way is to use more offensive FB but still keeping a balanced midfield with both offensive and defensive capacity.
It was indeed. We were away to a top European team (though they are off colour right now) that wasn't going to sit back, which meant our attack had the space in needs even with a less creative midfield.
If you play that way against teams that are going to be far more cagey, you need more than that in order to open them up.
I agree. We can play defence and counter with teams who want to attack but it’s different with teams that sit back. However I would still want protection from the midfield and rather release the fullbacks. And my point, actually: I don’t think two defensive midfielders necessarily means no creativity. It is McT and Fred who means no creativity and they are also poor at transporting the ball imo. But good defensively. I think we’ll be fine with Maguire/Lindelof/ Axel/Shaw/ AWB but would benefit from a defensive midfielder who could also play some football. (Would also prefer more offensive fb but doesn’t seem to happen. And there is no one to head the ball in the box anyway)
I'm certainly not arguing your point. You are correct. Unfortunately we lack the midfielders who can contribute both defensively and offensively. Which means that with the current squad, we have to choose what's right for each match.
It's just that since Spurs (which, to be fair, came after other bad defensive performances), we always starting these two. With two matches a week, there's probably also the affect of fatigue.
Playing two defensive midfielders to cover for the lack of speed of our CB's, is far from fixed. If we played Axel and Maguire or Lindelof that would loosen up midfield. It has a knock on effect in how we setup. Keeping Axel fit is another issue, another question of many for Ole at the moment.
That’s true and that leaves my reasoning to something hypothetical, I guess
I definitely think those two have a place and they’ve done a good job. To play them both was kind of an emergency break and it worked. I don’t necessarily want them to be super creative but they must be more available for a pass and to be able to transport the ball. Instead they give away the ball at dangerous situations, especially Fred who can pass the ball to the feet of the opposition 6-7 times per match.I would say drop Pogba play DVB.
Our defence is in it's worst state since Moyes. Maguire-Lindelöf combo is the worst CB pairing at United in the last 30 years. Championship level defensive coaching doesn't help either.
I actually think Lindelöf is the worst CB to ever play for Utd.
I was told our defence was fixed and how it's better than it was with Smalling, Rojo, Jones etc. but can't see anything that indicates on the pitch. I'm sure there will be some stats that prove it's great though so everything is OK I suppose.
Coming down on the side of 'no'.
As bad as I've ever seen it. Think they had 4 shots on target tonight and 3 goals. Playing 5 at the back and still it looks like no one is marking anyone. It's the reason we play with such negative tactics imo, Ole knows its shite too and doesn't trust them. Need to drop de gea indefinately to start with. To blame for so many goals
It's as bad as it has ever been
Will never be fixed with DDG as the keeper. Silent, scared and glued to the goal line. Always legs first when diving for the ball... I would like to see how many goals we conceded from "GK space" in last 2 years.
Can we get some better coaching first. I was thinking that VVD made that kind of impact on Liverpool because they were ready for him so to speak. You drop VVD on to this mish-mash of a team and I'm not sure he'd look as good.
Same issues tonight as in so many other games. Can't defend simple crosses. Easily exposed in transition. Could even Diego Simeone sort this s-t out?
3 crosses that any defender worth his salt could defend in his sleep. 3 goals.
This game was obviously worse than normal, but it's criminal that 3 mistakes like that can happen in 1 single game.
This game was obviously worse than normal, but it's criminal that 3 mistakes like that can happen in 1 single game.
He bought 3 of those. So I guess we only need to get rid of Lindelof and Shaw and all will be great. Can't wait til we sign the next batch of amazing defenders.
They all have pretty awful awareness. Always on the back foot.
AWB doesnt know how to position himself. Its actually pretty disturbing to look at as its something that is fairly easy to work on in training, and he has shown zero progress.
He is also often too lazy in the pressure in regards to blocking crosses.
Lindelof is way too indecisive. Leads to dangerous situations all the time. Feels like he doesnt have the confidence to play his game unless we are 2-0 up.
Maguire is just very slow. Not just his running. His allround movement is so slow-motion. Should not be captain.
We will not become a top team in Europe again with this defence. Its okay, but thats it.
AWB doesnt know how to position himself. Its actually pretty disturbing to look at as its something that is fairly easy to work on in training, and he has shown zero progress.
He is also often too lazy in the pressure in regards to blocking crosses.
Lindelof is way too indecisive. Leads to dangerous situations all the time. Feels like he doesnt have the confidence to play his game unless we are 2-0 up.
Maguire is just very slow. Not just his running. His allround movement is so slow-motion. Should not be captain.
We will not become a top team in Europe again with this defence. Its okay, but thats it.
Its better than those three, but its still no where near good enough.
I want to see a centre back pairing of Axel and TFM. Just to be sure that we don't have something that needs to be unearthed.
No and No. The only we thing we have not unearthed is more shite hiding under the mediocrity of the current back four. Both of them combined can't last 3 matches. Besides, Ole is already in love with Lindelof + Maguire. Long will it last until death do them part. Of course if you are going to get thrashed by City next, imaybe its best to start with a an excuse such as we are in the midst of uncovering the next CB pairing for next 10 years.
Besides, the problem extends to both full backs. They are all fully guilty for all 3 goals, complicit. And not to mention DDG, how do they train to setup to work so well to allow the opponents to walk in and score 3 goals and miss another 3-4 howlers and get 1 chalked off by luck.
Our defence is so fixed, its fixed to fail at the wrong times.
1. Guaranteed concession first.
2. Bruno will drag us back in. He almost always does.
3. No help whatsoever to the attack.
4. We will use the slowest possible DM (Matic) to cover our slowest possible CB (Captain America)
5. No one is aware where the opponents are.
6. Everybody start singing Everything is awesome from Lego the movie.
7. OleAtTheWheel
No. Bed in Tuanzebe and buy a proper Centre Half.
if the score line was 0-0 or 1-0 by 1st half, then yes we were weak in attack. It wasn't the problem. Problem was that when you play 7 defensive players, you meant to park the bus, so where was the bus after 2 min?
GK and back four just not working together
I don't know, I wrote it about a month and a half ago, it wasn't about tonight's match...
I said at most this defence is top 4. You will not mount a title challenge unless you score 100 goals. It was also always get undone in Europe. We got undone vs Seville and now again the same year. Cannot deal with crosses across the box
Getting very sick and tired of Maguire peddling out that line that we weren't at it from the start
Individually maybe, but as a backline no.
People need to realise how protected our current backline is when we keep playing 2 from Matic/Scott/Fred just to help shield them.
I don't see any difference from the Smalling years. Still as inconsistent and mistake prone as hell. Smalling also used to put on a great match followed by a disaster. The current defense isn't different.
I get that COVID has played it's part in this season but our defensive performances have absolutely fell off a cliff this season and quite honestly show no signs of the drastic improvement that we need