bosnian_red
Worst scout to ever exist
Needs a defensive midfielder next to a playmaker/controller from deep. Would happily sell Pogba and sign Locatelli and Rice for the midfield duo behind Bruno, and make Fred and McTominay the depth players.
It’s quite common for us to have just one player in central midfield, certainly was last season when we played Matic, Pogba and Bruno as you said.On this can anyone remember a Wolves game where the midfield 3 was Matic, Pogba and Bruno? This game is a classic example of what is wrong with our midfield . We played Telles at LB and Matic was used to protect him a lot. Ended up playing most the night at LCB so this left Pogba and Bruno in midfield. The problem here was Bruno doesn’t play in midfield and instead played all night up front leaving Pogba alone in midfield with no one to pass to or work with and he was getting dominated. Now eventually Ole brought on Shaw and freed Matic which in turn turned the tide of the game for us.
Now we are all quick to blame Fred and McT who granted aren’t the best but it’s made doubly harder when there aren’t options infront of you to work with to create angles and opportunities other than Hollywood passes. The whole team needs to learn to play at a better tempo when moving the ball around which will be achieved by players being in positions to receive the ball. Also learning not every pass has to be a killer pass would help many of them.
The problem is that as you say, we have a ‘front 4’ when it needs to be a ‘front 3’. A top level midfield in the current game needs at least 3 in there, and top managers are often trying to even increase that to 4. This creates passing options, which when done at speed, is very difficult to defend.I agree we could do with a dictator in the middle. Someone to get on the ball and control the tempo.
That being said, our midfield dominated Villareal with a pivot of McTominay and Pogba - a possession-based side, who are 4th in La Liga with an average possession of 54.3% this season. Some might argue that they allowed us to have the ball as there have been quite a few games this season where we've struggled to break down low blocks.
Now, this is where our front four come into it. In a 4231, all you want is your pivot to recycle the ball and keep the ball moving, which I feel our midfielders do well. No great, but good enough, in my opinion. That being said, apart from Pogba, we lack someone who can switch play, which is massive when playing against compact teams.
Moving onto our front four, the wide areas consists of wingers such as Rashford, Greenwood, James, who can sometimes heavily rely on space behind, which we simply don't have against a team who plays a low block. Therefore, what we do need are wide playmakers - players who can drift into the half-spaces and look to create.
Actually, I felt we saw a difference when playing someone like Pogba on the left, as opposed to Rashford, especially against the defensive sides, where he could look to play those cute passes down the sides. Goals against Spurs and Roma spring to mind, where he was heavily involved. Don't get me wrong, Rashford has the ability to do this but he's much more dangerous when running in behind.
Going forward, if we're going to continue to play a 4231, which I think we should, we should be looking to purchase wide playmakers, as opposed to wingers. This is why I'd be very happy if we sign Sancho. Statistically, Sancho is 6th in Europe in terms of key passes (2.6). Along with that, he has the 10th most assists (11) - one behind our top creator Bruno, who played 1000 minutes more.
Don't want to make this into a Sancho post because I know we have a specific thread for that but going forward, those are the type of players we need, in my opinion. Having seen Amad a few times, I feel he will be one of those players, too.
In turn, this could potentially put less reliance on our midfielders to create and instead just play at a quick tempo.
I definitely agree we need a midfielder who can dictate, though. Knowing when to quicken up and slow down a game is massive and we currently don't have one of those players.
I don't see the point of a sitting DM if you have a deep playmaker. For example the "DM" at Chelsea is Kante but he goes to press for the ball while Jorginho, the playmaker, sits deeper as last line. Rice is not a presser and I find hima bit limited on the ball.Needs a defensive midfielder next to a playmaker/controller from deep. Would happily sell Pogba and sign Locatelli and Rice for the midfield duo behind Bruno, and make Fred and McTominay the depth players.
I mean more a passer who is comfortable deeper. Someone who can dictate tempo of games. Basically like a Kroos/Modric and Casemiro midfield pairing. We need control and passing, Rice is solid and safe on the ball but not creative, whereas Locatelli can control and be a playmaker from the middle of the pitch and just be a roaming playmaker if you will. Pogba isn't good enough positionally or defensively to handle that role, so I don't think he'd even work next to someone like Rice in a midfield 2 (but there would be a chance tbf).I don't see the point of a sitting DM if you have a deep playmaker. For example the "DM" at Chelsea is Kante but he goes to press for the ball while Jorginho, the playmaker, sits deeper as last line. Rice is not a presser and I find hima bit limited on the ball.
If you go for Locatelli to playmake, might as well have a Fred or McTominay next to them. Or, if you want to updage on them, Kessie.
When I said front four, I meant those who push on to attack.The problem is that as you say, we have a ‘front 4’ when it needs to be a ‘front 3’. A top level midfield in the current game needs at least 3 in there, and top managers are often trying to even increase that to 4. This creates passing options, which when done at speed, is very difficult to defend.
Great post!@bosnian_red I just fundamentally disagree with your assertions.
Locatelli is fine defensively. He wouldn't be the ball winner, that would be Fred most likely or perhaps another highly dynamic ball-winner. Locatelli can be the Jorginho or Kroos, the deepest player who is a playmaker and keeps the shape. Neither of those is amazing defensively but does enough work from that position. Their defensive numbers are comparable and if anything Locatelli scores higher than Kroos on all defensive categories while being close to Jorginho. Look at their defensive stats of the first 3 players below...
Kante, Casemiro and Fred, the bottom 3, are very clearly the ball winners as reflected by the stats. They are people who are good for pressing though (check the pressures), they are wasted sitting. And all three offer more in the offensive phase and transition than Rice does.
I'm very against the signing of Rice who I don't rate highly enough as an all-round midfielder. We don't need a player that just sits and defends unless we play to play Pogba net to them. And then again, I would still prefer someone more comfortable with the ball than Rice. Not to mention he would cost and arm and a leg just because he's an an English international 22yo who plays for an EPL team.
If Pogba is ill-disciplined to play the deep playmaker, let's get one and the other CM should be pressing and chasing the ball.
As much as Bruno’s possession play, I have issues with his positional play. Perhaps I’m old fashioned, but I see a 10 as creating the extra body in midfield. Credit to Bruno, he is certainly an extra body when we are out of possession, as he will do his bit to try and win it back, but when we have the ball - he is getting in position to be ‘found’. I remember during the EL final after about 15/20 mins the commentator said ‘look at how far he’s come back to get involved. He had to go looking for it’. To me, that’s the game. He should go looking for it. Always presenting a pass to the player on the ball, not a 20 yard pass, but a 5-7 yard one. I get that he wants to get the ball in the dangerous areas, but we need to work our way into those areas.When I said front four, I meant those who push on to attack.
I know you have your reservations about Bruno's possession play but he is very much a player who gets involved in the game. Could he look after the ball more? Yes, but I wouldn't say we struggle with passing options, especially not in our first or second phase, anyway. Actually, I'd say our approach play is ok. It could be better but we generally keep the ball well. Oftentimes, we struggle when we get into the final third. We fail to use overloads correctly, especially down the right, and because of that, we fail to get down the side of teams.
As for the bit where you mentioned, 'top managers increasing to four', this is why I feel we looked better with Pogba at the left attacking midfielder. This allowed us to create a midfield box if you want, thus having more control of the game. This is why I mentioned opting for wide playmakers, as opposed to wingers, or at the very least having one there.
I don't disagree with you on Locatelli at all, that's exactly how I see him being, a bit more of an all rounder but someone who can by the playmaker but also keep his shape and do his bit defensively while providing mainly on the ball. I disagree that Fred would be a good enough partner to him, as I think the midfield would get bypassed like nothing, but I also disagree that Casemiro would be all that different to Rice. You mention the pressures, well Rice ranks ahead of Casemiro in both pressures in the defensive 3rd and in the midfield 3rd of the pitch. Neither really do anything in the attacking 3rd with it (unlike Fred).@bosnian_red I just fundamentally disagree with your assertions.
Locatelli is fine defensively. He wouldn't be the ball winner, that would be Fred most likely or perhaps another highly dynamic ball-winner. Locatelli can be the Jorginho or Kroos, the deepest player who is a playmaker and keeps the shape. Neither of those is amazing defensively but does enough work from that position. Their defensive numbers are comparable and if anything Locatelli scores higher than Kroos on all defensive categories while being close to Jorginho. Look at their defensive stats of the first 3 players below...
Kante, Casemiro and Fred, the bottom 3, are very clearly the ball winners as reflected by the stats. They are people who are good for pressing though (check the pressures), they are wasted sitting. And all three offer more in the offensive phase and transition than Rice does.
I'm very against the signing of Rice who I don't rate highly enough as an all-round midfielder. We don't need a player that just sits and defends unless we play to play Pogba net to them. And then again, I would still prefer someone more comfortable with the ball than Rice. Not to mention he would cost and arm and a leg just because he's an an English international 22yo who plays for an EPL team.
If Pogba is ill-disciplined to play the deep playmaker, let's get one and the other CM should be pressing and chasing the ball.
Yeah, that's true. 'Bruno plays way ahead of the midfield' is exaggeration. He is involved in the build up play as much as any midfielder we have. Obviously he doesn't drop to build the play from CB position but he is available for pass more often than not.When I said front four, I meant those who push on to attack.
I know you have your reservations about Bruno's possession play but he is very much a player who gets involved in the game. Could he look after the ball more? Yes, but I wouldn't say we struggle with passing options, especially not in our first or second phase, anyway. Actually, I'd say our approach play is ok. It could be better but we generally keep the ball well. Oftentimes, we struggle when we get into the final third. We fail to use overloads correctly, especially down the right, and because of that, we fail to get down the side of teams.
As for the bit where you mentioned, 'top managers increasing to four', this is why I feel we looked better with Pogba at the left attacking midfielder. This allowed us to create a midfield box if you want, thus having more control of the game. This is why I mentioned opting for wide playmakers, as opposed to wingers, or at the very least having one there.
All I see is one of our midfielders surrounded by 4,5,6 of theirs. Its all well and good having an extra playmaker in attack but we have to get them the ball.It can work if we have someone who can play in that wide playmaker. That wide playmaker will provide extra player for passing option to help Bruno if he's being man marked.
If we sign either Sancho or Grealish to play in Pogba's role and shift Pogba to Fred's role, it has good potential.
On contrary, we didn't have that wide playmaker vs Villareal and vs Leeds. Our midfield became less effective. A ball playing centre back is also needed to play the progressive pass to our playmaker. Probably why we are focussing on Sancho and a new CB over midfielder.
By having Bruno who often drop deep, a deep playmaker, and that wide playmaker to drift inside, we pretty much have 3 midfielders which neglect the worry of being surrounded by the opposition players. This is also why it's important to have very good ball playing centre back who can carry the ball, find players, and play the ball to the playmakers instead of being coward who waste their time passing the ball across the defense.All I see is one of our midfielders surrounded by 4,5,6 of theirs. Its all well and good having an extra playmaker in attack but we have to get them the ball.
I think we need to stop looking for one-player transformations tbh. Of course, players improve us, but I’m not sure our current philosophy actually suits these hypothetical saviours.Signing Varane or top CB could transform our current defense to the same level as the other top club and signing Sancho could transform our current attack to the same level as the other top club. I don’t see the available midfield option out there could transform our midfield to the same level as the other top club. This is probably why we are prioritising Sancho and top CB first and our playing style relies more on the quality of our ball playing CBs and front four.
Hannibal is already here, and I think can be as good as Bellingham. Only we are bot Dortmund.Garner and Jude Bellingham 12 months from now would be awesome. Or Carney Chukwuemeka instead of Bellingham but Villa would only sell for crazy money.
McT can come in when we need to go more defensive
This is why we should move to a 433. 1 DM and 2 8's. Depending on the opposition you can use multiple players in the 3 roles. Fred, mctominay, garner or any incoming signings as the DM. Bruno, pogba, Fred, mctominay, mejbri, donny as the 8's. So many variables. With sancho, greenwood, Rashford, Cavani and martial we have options for the front 3 too.The problem is that as you say, we have a ‘front 4’ when it needs to be a ‘front 3’. A top level midfield in the current game needs at least 3 in there, and top managers are often trying to even increase that to 4. This creates passing options, which when done at speed, is very difficult to defend.
I’m in agreement. I think the first step is to at least have 3 midfielders in close enough proximity to each other to work in unison both with and without the ball. Then we can start focusing on assembling midfielders who are actually good enough. But as a start, 3 midfielders in the actual midfield should give us the basis to control some football matches and build play.This is why we should move to a 433. 1 DM and 2 8's. Depending on the opposition you can use multiple players in the 3 roles. Fred, mctominay, garner or any incoming signings as the DM. Bruno, pogba, Fred, mctominay, mejbri, donny as the 8's. So many variables. With sancho, greenwood, Rashford, Cavani and martial we have options for the front 3 too.
Of course it does. This is below how our current philosophy works. We tend to have one midfield to join as 3rd CB and one midfield plays as a deep playmaker. When both Bruno who often drop deep and that wide playmaker to drift inside, the purpose is to provide extra body in midfield and also a passing option. (When we played Matic, Pogba, and Bruno in 19/20, we used Martial to drop deep instead of wide playmaker but if we want our striker to get more involved in scoring goal then it’s necessary to have one of the wide player to drift inside to midfield as wide playmaker instead).I think we need to stop looking for one-player transformations tbh. Of course, players improve us, but I’m not sure our current philosophy actually suits these hypothetical saviours.
Again, we fundamentally disagree on some stuff. I'm not sure why you think a midfield with Fred and Locatelli would get bypassed like nothing. Fred has some of the best defensive stats for a midfielder like I posted. He's very hard to improve on from a defensive and ball-wining POV. We literally play with Fred and McTominay as our most defensive-minded midfield and we're never getting bypassed. Although we do have problems playing out of midfield sometimes, hence the suggestion for a playmaker. Locatelli isn't worse than McTominay at defending, not by any stretch (see table below). So again what makes you think that midfield is lightweight, what are you basing your assertion on?I don't disagree with you on Locatelli at all, that's exactly how I see him being, a bit more of an all rounder but someone who can by the playmaker but also keep his shape and do his bit defensively while providing mainly on the ball. I disagree that Fred would be a good enough partner to him, as I think the midfield would get bypassed like nothing, but I also disagree that Casemiro would be all that different to Rice. You mention the pressures, well Rice ranks ahead of Casemiro in both pressures in the defensive 3rd and in the midfield 3rd of the pitch. Neither really do anything in the attacking 3rd with it (unlike Fred).
I'm not impressed by the "carries the ball stat". I see that as a negative if anything, it carries the risk of being dispossessed like it happens with Pogba. Why would a ball winner need to carry the ball into the final 3rd especially when surrounded by playmakers Kroos and Modric. That would be bad coaching. West Ham play with two DMs in Rice and Soucek so they don't have a playmaker so maybe that explains Rice's runs. Casemiro however has significantly more impact in the final 3rd with his passing and the impressive amount of goals he notches for a DM. I wouldn't really see Rice as an all-rounder based on his carries stat.Here's a comparison with pretty much most relevant midfielding stats you could look at from FBref and how they stack up (Casemiro is past his best now, but going back to 17/18 and comparing only la liga midfielders, his strengths are just more pronounced like more pressing and better passing, but still not too dissimilar from Rice). Of course, it's very hard to compare a ball winner for West Ham and one for Real Madrid in terms of some stats, but all the same, the roles aren't too dissimilar. Rice provides a lot more of running with the ball and moving up the pitch with it than Casemiro does, though perhaps that's just because Casemiro lays it off to Kroos or Modric more and Rice drives forward with it decently well. Passing wise the difference between them statistically speaking is pretty negligible.
Fred is very good at front foot pressing in the attacking phase but really not when it comes to sitting and positionally organizing things. Locatelli is decent defensively, but like I said, a big problem for us right now is defensive solidity in the middle as well as the control and creativity. McTominay and Fred as a pair have left us short defensively pretty often, though it's better than Pogba in there, because neither are amazing defensively. Not sure what stats you're looking at for Fred, because he ranks in the 13th percentile for midfielders in Europe in terms of quantity of times he gets dribbled past. That's a big problem, and it's easy to notice that when we watch him. He gets stuck in and runs around a lot, but he vacated the middle of the pitch and gets blown past very easily.Again, we fundamentally disagree on some stuff. I'm not sure why you think a midfield with Fred and Locatelli would get bypassed like nothing. Fred has some of the best defensive stats for a midfielder like I posted. He's very hard to improve on from a defensive and ball-wining POV. We literally play with Fred and McTominay as our most defensive-minded midfield and we're never getting bypassed. Although we do have problems playing out of midfield sometimes, hence the suggestion for a playmaker. Locatelli isn't worse than McTominay at defending, not by any stretch (see table below). So again what makes you think that midfield is lightweight, what are you basing your assertion on?
On the bolded steatement above...No he doesn't, not based on the stats you posted. Casemiro has literally double the pressures in the middle of the pitch. I wouldn't call anything in the defensive 3rd as "pressing" that's just defending to prevent shots on goal now. Plus Real Madrid will naturally control games more than West Ham, so there's be less opportunity to ramp defensive stats up on the defensive 3rd for Casemiro. You're literally making the exact opposite point in the next paragraph (see bolded below) saying how Casemiro is better at passing and pressing
I'm not impressed by the "carries the ball stat". I see that as a negative if anything, it carries the risk of being dispossessed like it happens with Pogba. Why would a ball winner need to carry the ball into the final 3rd especially when surrounded by playmakers Kroos and Modric. That would be bad coaching. West Ham play with two DMs in Rice and Soucek so they don't have a playmaker so maybe that explains Rice's runs. Casemiro however has significantly more impact in the final 3rd with his passing and the impressive amount of goals he notches for a DM. I wouldn't really see Rice as an all-rounder based on his carries stat.
I'm just more keen to pick a very decent ball player like Locatelli or Kessie to improve our circulation, than to pick an overpriced sitting DM like Rice. I don't really think planning to sign Rice to play him next to Pogba and Bruno is a good idea. Not least because there's huge uncertainties over Pogba staying, as well as his ability to play a disciplined CM game in tough fixtures against pressing opposition.