Our midfield: do we have the right balance and if not what type of player(s) should we be looking for?

fps

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We need a player who is a combo of Fred and McT. I’m hopeful of Scott’s continuing development. Fred and VDB would get overrun against top teams, unfortunately.
 

Steven7290

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Remind me of the Carrick prime years when everyone was frustrated we never replaced Keano, now we are complaining about the lack of replacement for...Carrick. Wonder who is going to be missed next when he no longer plays in our midfield?
 
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We have a lot of good midfielders. Bruno, Pogba, Matic, DVDB, McT and Fred.

we have no partnerships, except maybe Fred and McT, and that’s the challenge. Which three should start? I’ve no idea on the answer. Aside clearly from Bruno it could be a random allocation of two of the others. Matic is probably 6th choice, the rest are on par.

we might have the right balance in there somewhere, but we probably need a world class defensive midfielder to play most games to free up the others. We clearly don’t have that type of of player in the squad, and maybe that’s what is missing.
 

Poborsky's hair

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FFS when will people understand Matic is not a DM, he only seems to be one because his legs are gone and he's physically strong, so we play him there, however he can't cover the ground at all, his tracking and marking can be shocking throughout his all career. He's a CM who can do a job there but not a DM, Fred is a much better DM than him winning three times more balls every game. Even a little erratic player I'd take him over Matic anyday, on top of that he moves the ball 3 times faster too. Let the Serb retire now.

In modern game we really don't need a true DM, what's important is the balance and that can be achieved with different kind of players, Look at some lineups for Klops Liverpool or Peps Citeh. The defensive work of the whole team is more important. Unfortunately in our team not many players can press, it's the most annyoing and disappointing part of the game past maybe 10 years of watching United. Even big Alex couldn't impose more modern aspects to the game on his team. Obviously it is not the only way to play football but the game has moved on in this direction and we seem to struggle more and more against smaller teams every year because more progressive managers are coming in and try to play this brand of football.

"DMs" are faster and faster.

I think Fred, VdB and Bruno is a great midfield unit, they got legs, workrate, inteligence and all play one touch football which is key for us currently because of the type of players we have up front.. Matic is totally the opposite of what we should aspire for. He could still be great for some sides in Italy if hee's shifted next summer though. The pace is slower and the quality is lower, especially if he picks some top6 club, if they are interested..
 

wolvored

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DM specialist, I've been wanting one for years. That would then give us more options on how we can line up tactically.
Yep this. That would pretty much allow the lineup we saw last night. Fred would be replaced by the DM specialist. VDB and Bruno just in front of him were a great combo to watch.
 

RUCK4444

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DM, DM, DM!!!! I’ve been boring myself to death repeating it for years.

We play Fred and Scott together to make up for the fact we have zero top level DM’s in the team.

Matic gave us a glimpse of his former self but his legs have gone.

I got pelted for saying it would improve Pogba (which it would) but it would improve the WHOLE TEAM.

Not only that it would eliminate the only real headache Ole has to deal with every match, of whether to gamble on Pogba or VDB next to the likes of Fred, but every time he does they let him down and everytime he plays Fred and Scott to stay solid he gets pelted for it because it limits our abilities on the pitch.
 

wolvored

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DM, DM, DM!!!! I’ve been boring myself to death repeating it for years.

We play Fred and Scott together to make up for the fact we have zero top level DM’s in the team.


Matic gave us a glimpse of his former self but his legs have gone.

I got pelted for saying it would improve Pogba (which it would) but it would improve the WHOLE TEAM.

Not only that it would eliminate the only real headache Ole has to deal with every match, of whether to gamble on Pogba or VDB next to the likes of Fred, but every time he does they let him down and everytime he plays Fred and Scott to stay solid he gets pelted for it because it limits our abilities on the pitch.
100% agree.
 

hobbers

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Pogba sold. Matic retired. Sign a proper number 6/holding midfielder. Simple.

But then we've been needing that for about 5 years or so now. And needed a right winger since Valencia was converted into a right back, and it's still to materialise.
 

MadDogg

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We need either a Carrick style deep-lying playmaker who is also decent defensively, or another top box-to-box midfielder who is at least a bit better than Fred at passing the ball. Fred's passing ability is fine IMO as long as he's not expected to be the main passer and playmaker of the team, which is the issue when he's played next to McTominay. If we can get the right player of either of those moulds and then play them next to Fred and Bruno, that's potentially a monster of a midfield. If they are good enough defensively we might also be able to play VDB in there with them at times instead of Fred.
 

romufc

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I see. Of course he can't do what Fabinho and Fernandinho does, he's only 21.

Tbh I only watched him a few matches but I'm of the opinion that he's already one of the best DM in the league atm. Despite his age. And he'll be a really really good one in one or two years. When he reaches his peak.

He's very strong but quick enough. Strong tackle. Good anticipation and he read the game really well. Good positioning. So he made quite a number of good interceptions. He's a quite decent passer as well.

And I heard he can play as a CB as well. Imo he'd be a pretty good CB.


Well what could you expect from Ed and his highschool mate? We should thank feck that we were able to do transfers I think.
I get what you mean and I have seen signs of him being a top DM.

The thing that concerns me is that he is playing in a West Ham team that set up defensively so he is never exposed where say a Manutd or a bigger club, he will have to be a midfield general where he is left 3 v 3 and has to win the ball back.

I am not saying he is not capable of doing it, as you say he is 21 and it will come.
 

Strelok

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I get what you mean and I have seen signs of him being a top DM.

The thing that concerns me is that he is playing in a West Ham team that set up defensively so he is never exposed where say a Manutd or a bigger club, he will have to be a midfield general where he is left 3 v 3 and has to win the ball back.

I am not saying he is not capable of doing it, as you say he is 21 and it will come.
Yeah agreed on that, we'll never know until he moves to a top club. If he will of course.

But I think he's doing pretty ok in the national team. Imo it's an indicator he would play well in the bigger stages or for a bigger club. Especially when he reaches his peak in a few years I think.
 

Jonno

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DM, DM, DM!!!! I’ve been boring myself to death repeating it for years.

We play Fred and Scott together to make up for the fact we have zero top level DM’s in the team.

Matic gave us a glimpse of his former self but his legs have gone.

I got pelted for saying it would improve Pogba (which it would) but it would improve the WHOLE TEAM.

Not only that it would eliminate the only real headache Ole has to deal with every match, of whether to gamble on Pogba or VDB next to the likes of Fred, but every time he does they let him down and everytime he plays Fred and Scott to stay solid he gets pelted for it because it limits our abilities on the pitch.
This is spot on.

Often we find ourselves subsidising not having a proper DM by playing two inferior DM's at the expense of the rest of the team.

There were a good number of them on the market in the summer, they're not too expensive either, £20m-£50m it seems.
 

Web of Bissaka

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What we've lost:


How we've replaced it:

Carrick-ish type of player is too rare though :D no idea who is like this currently still playing.

Henderson? funny..
De Bruyne? his defending left a lot to be desired.

Thing is, the first half of 17/18 showed that we don't miss Carrick with Matic. We also played more counter-attacking football with a secured organized defensive structure. Matic himself is also good at long pass, could pull 1-2 good ones per game. Good enough. The only problem is that Matic is already declining and his fitness and then form will declined quickly the more games he played.

So just get another top DM who can do the job mostly on his own with far better fitness. We're playing with more open defense now with Ole that is the problem, and I don't think there's anyone can. Fernandinho gets exploited with City but they lessen it well with their cynical professional fouls high up the pitch, good organized positioning and possession keeping football while Fabinho at Pool have one but usually two extra legworks from his midfield partners to helped him deals with counter and defense, the whole of Liverpool's playstyle too is pushing defense back, else they'll hit you hard with pace, so that helps lessen down the pressure to Pool's midfield.

Turns out the solution is still to partner the new DM with a partner that can still support him. Luckily we have Fred and McT who is a good support of defense, while VDB isn't too shabby either even if he's way worse but far better. Matic declined so we should move him on eventually. Pogba is just not a suitable partner.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Everton is a team that caused trouble to Liverpool and We beat Everton 3-1 with playing good football. That should be the structure of our XI and also our midfield 4231. Don’t need to be complicated. Double pivot midfielder with good work rate seems to be Ole’s focus style of play will allow our front four to drop less deep for helping defense and allow full back to go forward.

Matic is 32 and will be 33 years old next year, move on. Pogba is likely to be sold. The double pivot role require lot of stamina and energy means they shouldn’t be playing every games, rotation is needed.

Double pivot: New player, Fred, Donny, Scott
AM: Bruno, Donny

Zakaria is my preference.
 

justsomebloke

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IMV we only have Bruno in the attacking midfield role who is delivering on a regular basis. Pogba has the ability no doubt to hold a key position. Whether that’s going to happen is, on the other hand, a different story. Matic can still do a job for us as DM but the signs of age are starting to creep in. Fred as much as he gives everything in every game, for me lacks important qualities to be a top performer. MacT has the attributes and potential to take on the roll as DM so I’m not too worried in that department. VDB we haven’t really seen what he brings to the table yet, but looking at his game time so far it does send out a wave of uncertainty.

So if you believe our midfield is where it should be then fine. If not which type of player(s) do you believe we need to strengthen that so important department and would Pogba be part of it?

Myself I’d be reckoning with the further development of McT because I believe he can be that good. Bruno goes without saying of course. I don’t believe Pogba as an option so he’s out for me. So for me we need a top class B2B more than anything.

It’s not going to happen but you can dream: Kevin de Bruyne would be my ideal player!

DM MacT
CM VDB
B2B De Bruyne
AM Bruno

Any other more feasible options to improve our midfield?
Practically anything that doesn't rely on United buying Kevin van de Bruyne meets the requirement of "more feasible". :)

No, jokes aside, what makes this so damnably difficult is the interaction with central defence. Currently, it's not looking like we have enough defensive solidity without supporting them with two holding midfielders, with limited licence to go forward. As long as that is the case, there's no way we can utilize our midfield resources in an optimal way, because both Pogba and van de Beek need more offensive roles than that allows for. The no 10 belongs to Bruno, who is by a huge margin our most key player.

With Pogba and DvdB on board, you'd ideally want to play something resembling a 4-1-4-1, but that requires either a better central defence or a considerably better defensive midfielder than we currently have, possibly both. In other words, investment.

Without that, it's quite easy to see why McTominay/Fred is seen as the best option. It might be that DvdB can step into Fred's role and do it as well or better, with a little more licence to go forward than the other holding midfielder. But it seems unlikely that Pogba will thrive in that role - it relies too much on the things he does badly, and leaves too little scope for the things he does well. So far, I don't think either McTominay or Matic can be expected to be top notch holding midfielders. Matic is the right type but seems to be in decline, while McTominay lacks the poise and passing to be really great there. But who knows, they might both grow into the role. Matic was more or less written off half-way through last season, but then won a regular starting role. Maybe he can do it again.
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean

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Whilst Ole is here, the 4231 is here to stay and I'm glad because I feel it's a formation that is the most balanced.

Regards our midfield, I would categorize our midfielders into the following:

Fred - Ball winner - Presses the ball superbly well and loves to get around the pitch. Unfortunately, when played as the deepest midfielder, it means he can leave gaps in behind.

Matic - Anchor man/Deep lying playmaker - More often than not, he'll hold his position as the deepest midfielder. Reads the game relatively well and will normally be the midfielder to drop in between the defence and start play. Unfortunately, he now struggles with the intensity of most games.

McTominay - Ball winner - Like Fred, when tasked with pressing and winning the ball, McTominay does a fantastic job. Whilst the two are getting better on the ball, they haven't got the ability to control games and are much suited to getting 'stuck in', rather than being 'elegant'.

Pogba - Regista - When on form, Pogba is our best passer, in my opinion, especially long-range passing. For most of Ole's tenure, Pogba has played deep in a 4231, where he has been tasked with getting on the ball and feeding the front four. Pogba can play passes most could only dream of but I find, more often than not, he is looking for the killer pass, instead of knowing when to play short, switch play, one-touch, etc.

The other day against France I said he had a good game because he did the simple but effective things. Kept the game flowing and allowed the front four to attack.

On paper, Pogba, partnered with any of the above midfielders should work because he should be that player to control the game for us but unfortunately, it hasn't gone to plan. He just feels the need to take unnecessary risks at times or try something special (maybe he's trying to justify his price). That, and defensively, we don't always look secure with Pogba playing deep. Same can be said about Van de Beek, who we saw featuring deep against Istanbul on home and away. Not solely his fault for us looking so open but I can obviously see why Ole has now opted for the tried and trusted Fred and McTominay, especially in the 'tougher' games.

What player should we be looking at?

I've always liked the look of playing a ball winner/box to box players with a deep-lying playmaker in a double pivot.

I look at some of the successful teams in the past that have played a 4231 and they have gone with a similar format.

For example,

Ajax 18/19 - De Jong (Deep-lying playmaker) - Schone (Ball winner/box to box)

Bayern Munich 19/20 - Kimmich (Deep-lying playmaker) - Goretzka (box to box)

Dortmund 14/15 - Gundogan (Deep-lying playmaker) - Bender (ball winner/box to box)

Those are just a few examples but it does seem to work well and has a nice balance to it.

Now, when I look at the current midfielders we have, in Fred and McTominay, we have two relatively good ball-winning, combative midfielders. What the lack, however, is someone who can sit deep, control the game, and allow them to use their dynamism to press up the pitch.

I don't really know who could come in and fulfill that role for us but that is the type of midfielder I feel we need.

I was desperate for us to sign Thiago when it became known he wanted to leave Bayern but unfortunately, it didn't happen.

I have always been a fan of Fabian Ruiz of Napoli. Someone who has a good passing range, comfortable on the ball, and has the ability to dictate games.

Either way, going forward, I'd like us to set up like:


Bruno/Van de Beek
DLP - Fred/McTominay
Ole used Pogba as a DLP mainly because of his long range passing

Bruno
Fred(Ball winner) Pogba(DLP)
This is what we played in the late stages of Europa. I thought it made us good in attack and we weren't always vulnerable in defense. Maybe it won't work against big sides but against low blocks I think it will hurt opponents more than us
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Ole used Pogba as a DLP mainly because of his long range passing

Bruno
Fred(Ball winner) Pogba(DLP)
This is what we played in the late stages of Europa. I thought it made us good in attack and we weren't always vulnerable in defense. Maybe it won't work against big sides but against low blocks I think it will hurt opponents more than us
Yeah, the pivot of Fred and Pogba looked encouraging against both, Copenhagen and Sevilla. Created loads of chances going forward, and defensively, as you said, we didn't really look vulnerable.

It's a pivot I'd like to see a bit more of.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Remind me of the Carrick prime years when everyone was frustrated we never replaced Keano, now we are complaining about the lack of replacement for...Carrick. Wonder who is going to be missed next when he no longer plays in our midfield?
I agree, we should have kept Andreas Periera.
 

owlo

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I’d buy a 5 if we could identify one. No need for pace or physicality really.
 

Bebestation

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Who we buy as a CDM is highly dependent on what happens with Pogba in my opinion. If we decide to sell the guy then we may need a play from deep who can pass and dictate play whilst being a little more defensively capable than Pogba was for us.

However, If we decide to keep Pogba and let him do the long distance passing from deep then we need a CDM destroyer.

A proper one that can recognise danger of both the opposition aswell as potentially Pogba's mistakes.

To me that's the easier option of the two even if it's not got the most wow factor.



I find deep playing playmakers very hard to find these days? Who are there that's gettable?

Who are the best destroyers?
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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A dynamic player who can shield the back four, able to connect forwards with defence with short passes to keep the tempo going, and score odd goals. Nothing too fancy.
A xabi alonso.
 

Devil1

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Just ask Leicester who they would sign to replace Ndidi and sign them.
 

RedRonaldo

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1.We need strong CB, so that we don't need to play 2 defensive midfielder to protect our back four
2. We also need a strong DM, so 1 DM is more than enough to win the ball in midfielder, free up 2 spot for creative midfielder
3. We need Haaland, or another one to score easy goals for us. I don't believe Martial is the right type of no.9 for us.
4. A right winger too, of course. But lets see how Greenwood, Diallo fit in the spot first.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Ole used Pogba as a DLP mainly because of his long range passing

Bruno
Fred(Ball winner) Pogba(DLP)
This is what we played in the late stages of Europa. I thought it made us good in attack and we weren't always vulnerable in defense. Maybe it won't work against big sides but against low blocks I think it will hurt opponents more than us
Yeah, the pivot of Fred and Pogba looked encouraging against both, Copenhagen and Sevilla. Created loads of chances going forward, and defensively, as you said, we didn't really look vulnerable.

It's a pivot I'd like to see a bit more of.
Unfortunately that midfield especially Bruno & Pogba together with only 1 DM/ball winner in midfield will not work consistent basis.

There is one thing in common between Bruno & Pogba and that is both players can lose the ball easily. Bruno often loses the ball because he is a risk taker. While Pogba often loses the ball because the guy has no playmaker awareness and takes too many touches on the ball. One defensive type midfielder will not be enough to cover two player’s mistakes.

People are talking about man city KDB & Silva but those two are not in the same case as Bruno & Pogba’s duo case.

KDB is similar to Bruno a risk taker and often lose the ball due to trying risky passes but Silva is different to Pogba, he has good ball retention, doesn’t lose the ball under pressure and has good passing accuracy above 85% average per season. He’s more of a DLP than Pogba.
 

andersj

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Depends on what we expect from our fullbacks. Lets look at the last three title teams;

- Liverpool played with three midfielders that first and foremost protect their central defenders and pass the ball to more creative players. Meaning they had five players through the middle very adept at protecting the most crucial area of their own third.

- Man City played with one DM, but their fullbsck tucked in; Walker often played as a third RCB and Delph, Zinchenko played a bit higher up, but narrow and next to the DM. This gave them too five «defenders» protecting KdB and Silva.

- Chelsea played three central defenders and Matic/Kante. Leaving them with five «defenders» and control of the most crucial area of the pitch.

Man Utd have not found the same balance. While the title winning teams have had players who are «specialists», perhaps you could label them either creators or defenders, a few of our players have been expected to do a bit of both. We have expected Pogba to be a defender, but also a creative force meaning he has taken a fair bit of risk in an area of the pitch where we cant afford that. Our fullbacks are first and foremost defenders, but we also expect them to contribute going forward and to give us width.

You could argue that we have six defenders. Problem is that three of them is hybrids, and struggle with the burden of two tasks that is becoming more and more difficult to combine.

We look fine with McT and Fred in midfield, but I’m not sure either of them is actually good enough. I think both of them is okey, but they would look a lot better next to a Keane, Robson or even Carrick.

Regardless, we lack a bit of creativity going forward, and I think that is down to our fullbacks and specially the right back. Hopefully Telles could solve some of our issues on the left back, but I do think or RW need more support from the RB.

I do think that this lack of balance makes it difficult to be a CB at Man Utd, and Maguire/Lindelof is really underrated as a combination. With van Dijk out, I dont think any team have a better CB-pair than Man Utd.
 

tomaldinho1

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Just a proper DM

Need to stop with the double pivot and setup to attack, can't be playing with our cautious reactive style when we have such good midfield players. Even now, unless we're playing a team that will pile men forwards - just start McT, Fred or Matic in the lone DM role and have two proper CMs further forward, ideally VdB and Bruno on current form. Will transform how we look on the pitch.
 

man united 4eva

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Let's go out and buy Denis Zakaria.. That would make a balanced first choice midfield 3 of... Zakaria... van de Beek... Fernandes... maybe change van de Beek for Fred in certain games.
 

mrball_uk

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The need a player who has three key attributes - physically able to compete and dominate oppositions attacking midfielders, intelligent in their ability to read passes and in doing so help screen our centre backs and thirdly (just as importantly) has decent quick feet and able to ratting he ball and not lose possession in dangerous parts of the pitch. We have had maybe players who can do 1 or 2 of these things over the past few years but not all three. It means that we often lose possession that leads to our centre backs being on the back foot...this lack of "confidence" in our players to retain possession, especially against pressing teams, has led to our centre backs playing conservatively and playing off oppositions strikers. It is not only our lack of pace in our centre back partnership that leads to us not pushing up as a unit or pushing up man to man - but there seems to be no sense of calmness when other teams press out central midfielders.

I think we are all fine with us taking risks higher up the pitch and we have now an outstanding number 10 - however the ability to make simple quick passes in central midfield seems to be such an underrated skill. Pogba unfortunately was never going to be suited to playing there as a partner to Fred or anyone else - he takes too many touches and this combined with slow body movement leads him into trouble - he is much better playing wider or higher up the pitch where there is more time for him to play with vision.

So where does that lead us - it means OGS has to play with a more limited line up when I think he truly wants to play with a more progressive team that would include VdB and Bruno. Our link up play with both of them on the pitch was significantly better midweek. And yes of course it made a difference to have an improvement at number 9 in terms of movement and touch.

For me this is the most important type of player to sign before RW, CF, CB or RB. If we get the correct player it automatically makes us better defensively, improves us against pressing teams, will help build confidence and also our ability to retain the ball better means we can play a more progressive lineup more often and dominate.
 

Andersons Dietician

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I think there are a lot of good pieces that just don’t fit together. I’m losing or have lost faith that there is really away to get Pogba and Bruno in to the team and the team to be technically and defensivly sound.

I’m leaning more to the idea of 433 and playing VDB and Bruno but with Bruno playing a more controlled role than his usual one. My problem here is, I like Fred, I’ve grown to appreciate McT but neither of them are able to play that role of DM. Both have great qualities but they’ll never be a Carrick and I feel we need someone with the ability to hit that forward pass as well as being solid.

another problem for me is the defence in that it really needs protection. Maguire makes way too many mistakes and is too slow to play a high line. Hence the need for Fred and McT.

Ive always liked Saul as he has a bit of everything with the added bonus of better at getting around the pitch than Carrick and an aggressiveness Carrick didn’t seemed to have which I feel this team desperately needs.

Just feel we need a proper strong leader in midfield to control and direct everyone and with the personality strong enough to keep Bruno in check at times.