Our record against the "big six" this season

[BusbyMalone]

Alright, I know we can debate about what the “big six” means and whether Arsenal are part of it, etc. But I think we can agree on the teams here, or at least that’s how the big six are typically represented.

Anyway, it doesn’t make for great viewing these results. Or maybe you disagree and think they’re of no great concern.


Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd


7 goals against, 1 goal for. Not a single win

Obviously the Spurs game heavily impacts the goal stats there, but is it something to worry about? Is it a case of the bigger teams finally working out what we’re all about, or is it simply a symptom of a peculiar season?

 

[MrSingh2002]

I felt this from the start with Ole. For some reason he doesn't think we can win those games with an aggressive attacking performance.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

We always go for unbalanced lineups for these games. We try to play from the back but it looks so awkward and usually leads to our players dropping deep and doing nothing. Something very wrong with our attack as well, they're all out of form. Fred and McTominay will not do anything pro-active in these games.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Since the Spurs game we play with the handbrake on. Our primary intention is to avoid defeat, winning is a bonus.

 

[The Firestarter]

This is absolutely the first thread on this subject. There are no other threads that has this discussion ongoing in this very moment.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

We bottled some big chances against arse and pool.

I think we just need a bit more quality in attack, and those draws turn to wins.

 

[Feed Me]

We bottled some big chances against arse and pool.

I think we just need a bit more quality in attack, and those draws turn to wins.

The margins have been fine. I think it’s going to turn for us soon.

 

[BusbyMalone]

We always go for unbalanced lineups for these games. We try to play from the back but it looks so awkward and usually leads to our players dropping deep and doing nothing. Something very wrong with our attack as well, they're all out of form.

Yeah, Fred and Mctominay are a regular fixture in these games, and I struggle to think what they bring in the main. I suppose you can point to the 0-0s and say "that's what they bring" Funny enough, the only game they didn't play in was the Spurs game. And we got tanked 6-1, so...

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Yeah, Fred and Mctominay are a regular fixture in these games, and I struggle to think what they bring in the main. I suppose you can point to the 0-0s and say "that's what they bring" Funny enough, the only game they didn't play in was the Spurs game. And we got tanked 6-1, so...

I strongly think it should be one or the other, both of them are overkill unless we're playing some unreal forces like Neymar and Mbappe. When we play both of them we've accepted that we're the inferior team and will look to be safe and "outrun" them but what makes it even more unbalanced is we have some players that love pressing like Bruno, Fred, Cavani and McTominay however we have the wide players - Martial, Rashford who are pretty awful at it.

The other option is we scrap them both and sign someone like Rice who we can count on to do both of their roles and play Pogba (or new signing) next to him.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Since the Spurs game we play with the handbrake on. Our primary intention is to avoid defeat, winning is a bonus.

Yeah, and I left a comment on someone else's post, but I think the Spurs game is the only one where Fred and Mctominay didn't start. So probably points to why they always start against these teams now.

 

[el3mel]

It's shit, but I think this has been discussed in multiple threads already so I'm not sure it deserved yet another thread to be totally honest. This could go in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/are-we-too-pragmatic-in-the-big-games.460082/

 

[kidbob]

In counter to this we were pretty great last season against the same sides but shit against the lower teams. Its flipped this season so far but indicates that we are capable of winning games against both types of teams. The real key is for us to find the consistency needed to be able to win enough to challenge. Consistency rather than ability is our problem right now, which it hasn't been for quite a while in the last few years. Personally, while we need new quality signings in at least three positions, I wish Ole would push hard to find his Carlos Quieroz figure. I love his man management but really feel he could benefit from an experienced talented coach who can drill tactics and style to push us to a consistent level.

Also remember that despite our CL exit this season we have smashed RBL, beaten PSG in Paris and were more than matching them at home before the sending off and beat Liverpool in the Cup while drawing with them and City, who have amassed incredible points totals in the last few years while we have battled for 4th.

I don't think we've been 'worked out' but rather games like this are usually won by the team who gets the breaks and isn't helped by our front three (who were brilliant at times last season) all going through a dip in form at the same time.. However we should be striving to find a way to go up another level which we are capable of in my opinion and most of all finding whatever is needed to become consistent in these type of games. I still feel we are as likely to beat a 'top 6' team 3-0 or lose to them by the same than be consistently trusted to perform at a good level against them. Solve that and we can be contenders.

 

[bosnian_red]

It's kind of weird. Last season we were great in them, now we can't buy a win in the league. We had a very good performance in the FA Cup vs Liverpool and got the win there with 3 goals scored, and yesterday for example we just didn't take the chances and should've got the win. City home and Liverpool away were both fine as well in isolation. These games will always be tight and decided on moments, unfortunately we haven't been getting them to roll our way.

Maybe it's a mental thing for our players at the moment. But performance wise, Spurs aside, they've been relatively normal. You look at the xG in those games...:

• Spurs H - 0.87 - 3.30
• Chelsea H - 0.65 - 0.22
• Arsenal H - 0.39 - 1.00
• City H - 0.59 - 1.28
• Liverpool A - 1.19 - 1.20
• Arsenal A - 1.51 (utd) - 0.75 (arse)

OK so the first 3 games were terrible (we were better than Chelsea, but still poor creatively, and Arsenal we gave away a pen), City I don't remember any real chances really off the top of my head but we know they're a better side than us anyway. Liverpool we could've easily won it, and yesterday we should've won it. It's the sort of record where if we go on to beat Spurs/Chelsea and one of Liverpool at Old Trafford or City away, then it's a good record. But we do need to start turning these tight games into wins.

 

[Tom Cato]

I'm seeing 4 clean sheets. Pretty good!

 

[UnofficialDevil]

I'm seeing 4 clean sheets. Pretty good!

How about we've only managed to score one goal against the big 6 in the league and that's a penalty.

 

[Rightnr]

Pathetic and cowardly set-ups reap the expected rewards.

 

[Lee565]

Having looked up the line ups when have have face big sides domestically and Europe, 2 out of 3 our victories against liverpool, leipzig and psg featured a midfield of van der beek, pogba and mctominay in it and Fernandes sitting on the bench...

Also for as bad as van der beek is supposedly, the two times he has started against a top side (leipzig/liverpool) we have won and in entertaining fashion..

 

[Tom Cato]

Pathetic and cowardly set-ups reap he expected rewards.

Now imagine how angry you would be if we went too offensive and allowed several goals in the net. You'd be FUMING.

 

[Tom Cato]

How about we've only managed to score one goal against the big 6 in the league and that's a penalty.

Yes but 4 clean sheets!

Cool if we stop pretending like we didnt generate more than enough chances to win most of those matches though. It's such fine margins sometimes.

 

[Ish]

Maybe the other managers have incidentally figured us out/showed us a little bit more respect and approached it more sensibly, nullifying our counter attack, therefore nullifying our greatest weapon against them.

 

[K Stand Knut]

The obsession with results against the ‘big 6’ is starting to wind me up.

One of our major issues in the past few years specifically has been dropping points to teams that the other big 6 generally treat as cannon fodder. Points against the big 6 have been fairly decent overall.

Now I know that beating the best teams in the league is brilliant and we’ll all go ballistic when we win against Liverpool or city but, again, the results against the big 6 CAN be largely irrelevant, depending on how you treat the cannon fodder.

This is a bad week to make this point after the game against Sheffield United but if you beat everyone outside the top 6, you automatically accumulate 78 points.

do that every season and pick up 3 wins against the top 6 (far from inconceivable) and you have 87 points and an annual title challenge.

The stats this season show that we have largely turned around the results against the ‘non-big 6’. Prior to the SU game, i believe that we have increased our PPG from 1.? to 2.75.

This is where we push our title challenge forward

 

[He'sRaldo]

Having looked up the line ups when have have face big sides domestically and Europe, 2 out of 3 our victories against liverpool, leipzig and psg featured a midfield of van der beek, pogba and mctominay in it and Fernandes sitting on the bench...

Also for as bad as van der beek is supposedly, the two times he has started against a top side (leipzig/liverpool) we have won and in entertaining fashion..

It was very noticeable in the two recent Liverpool games.

In the first one, we couldn't build any decent attacks with the way we gave the ball away trying to find the killer pass immediately, and Bruno was a huge culprit of this. Meanwhile in the 2nd game, the way Donny held up the ball was more conducive to our attack and we were able to build and counter more effectively.

That said, Bruno did come on and score a superb freekick so he showed a more direct contribution vs Donny's better buildup. But with the way Donny times his runs, I'm sure with more game time he'll be able to contribute directly as well in terms of goals and assists.

 

[Borys]

Yeah, Fred and Mctominay are a regular fixture in these games, and I struggle to think what they bring in the main. I suppose you can point to the 0-0s and say "that's what they bring" Funny enough, the only game they didn't play in was the Spurs game. And we got tanked 6-1, so...

The unbalanced setup is because of what happens in front of those two. Fred and McTominay are the not the biggest problem, not even close to our strikers form.

Yesterday was a decent game, we created enough good chances and were unlucky not to score. We were good against Liverpool in both games so I'm not that worried right now.

Tottenham - terrible game, terrible fitness
Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool - went for 0-0. Worked almost perfectly as planned if it wasn't for the penalty against Arsenal.

City in the cup - we had decent chances, but outplayed in the end.

Liverpool in the cup - they played like we wanted them to, good game and result.

Arsenal 2nd game - we were the better team with better chances. Not that worried about performance.

 

[Lee565]

It was very noticeable in the two recent Liverpool games.

In the first one, we couldn't build any decent attacks with the way we gave the ball away trying to find the killer pass immediately, and Bruno was a huge culprit of this. Meanwhile in the 2nd game, the way Donny held up the ball was more conducive to our attack and we were able to build and counter more effectively.

That said, Bruno did come on and score a superb freekick so he showed a more direct contribution vs Donny's better buildup. But with the way Donny times his runs, I'm sure with more game time he'll be able to contribute directly as well in terms of goals and assists.

Maybe that is the way to go because funnily enough using Fernandes as the impact sub late in the leipzig match also worked as effective as it did in the liverpool game, I think also the reason why maybe it has worked is because Fernandes plays further forward where as vdb is an extra midfield number to make it feel like a proper 3 man midfield

 

[The Corinthian]

Alright, I know we can debate about what the “big six” means and whether Arsenal are part of it, etc. But I think we can agree on the teams here, or at least that’s how the big six are typically represented.

Anyway, it doesn’t make for great viewing these results. Or maybe you disagree and think they’re of no great concern.


Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd


7 goals against, 1 goal for. Not a single win

Obviously the Spurs game heavily impacts the goal stats there, but is it something to worry about? Is it a case of the bigger teams finally working out what we’re all about, or is it simply a symptom of a peculiar season?

Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

Looks a bit better now.

Played 9, won 2, drew 5, lost 2 with 1 to play.

I mean, I never took this mini 6 league that seriously to begin with, but Ole is showing the naysayers he can still do it in the bigger matches too.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

Looks a bit better now.

Played 9, won 2, drew 5, lost 2 with 1 to play.

I mean, I never took this mini 6 league that seriously to begin with, but Ole is showing the naysayers he can still do it in the bigger matches too.

Losses to arguably the two weakest of the other 5.

 

[The Corinthian]

Losses to arguably the two weakest of the other 5.

1 was because the team was woefully unprepared due to Covid scheduling and the late finish of the previous season.

The Arsenal loss (although so disappointing) was down to a Pogba brainfart. That would have finished 0-0 if he wasn't a defensive liability that game.

 

[SuperiorXI]

1 was because the team was woefully unprepared due to Covid scheduling and the late finish of the previous season.

The Arsenal loss (although so disappointing) was down to a Pogba brainfart. That would have finished 0-0 if he wasn't a defensive liability that game.

That was such a weird game, we were better than them and deserved the 3 points.

 

[Robbo 7]

Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

Looks a bit better now.

Played 9, won 2, drew 5, lost 2 with 1 to play.

I mean, I never took this mini 6 league that seriously to begin with, but Ole is showing the naysayers he can still do it in the bigger matches too.

I hadn't realised that only Spurs and Arsenal are the only teams to score against us in that list...

 

[Raw]

If you look at the record against the current top 6 it looks even better. Replace Spurs and Arsenal with West Ham and Leicester and we're undefeated against the top 6 (2-2 v Leicester, 3-1 and 1-0 v West Ham).

Its the shit teams that worries me. Losses against Palace, Sheffield United and draws against Palace, West Brom have cost us 10 points. Should be beating these if we want to win the title.

 

[Reditus]

I hadn't realised that only Spurs and Arsenal are the only teams to score against us in that list...

its very impressive defensively. Surely it would suggest we are not an awfully coached side

 

[rotherham_red]

Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

Looks a bit better now.

Played 9, won 2, drew 5, lost 2 with 1 to play.

I mean, I never took this mini 6 league that seriously to begin with, but Ole is showing the naysayers he can still do it in the bigger matches too.

We're currently 3rd in the "big six" head to head table. Just shows the improvement and progression of the team as we've steadily been going toe to toe with these teams rather than just soaking things up and hitting them on the counter like previously. I personally don't care how we win in these games as long as we win, because even in "negative" performances, there would be a multitude of positives taken.

 

[rotherham_red]

If you look at the record against the current top 6 it looks even better. Replace Spurs and Arsenal with West Ham and Leicester and we're undefeated against the top 6 (2-2 v Leicester, 3-1 and 1-0 v West Ham).

Its the shit teams that worries me. Losses against Palace, Sheffield United and draws against Palace, West Brom have cost us 10 points. Should be beating these if we want to win the title.

Tbf, Palace was down to Covid and no preseason, and Sheffield Utd and West Brom were games where VAR and the refs actively sabotaged us.

All the games you mentioned were poor performances, but even still there were areas of mitigation and arguments that could be made that in spite of the poor performances we should have won.

No team will ever go the season unbeaten and have a 100% win rate, so considering everything, we've done pretty well and improved from the admittedly low quantitative base of 3rd and 66 points last year.

 

[lysglimt]

I decided to look at his record since joining the club. I looked at all competitions and also included Leicester as I now consider them a regular top-side - so the big 7

So against the top teams: Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and Leicester we have:

16 wins, 11 draws and 9 defeats - which is very good considering where we were when he took over. Goal difference 43-37 - so if we remove that freak Spurs-game we are below 1 goal against when we play the topteams - which clearly indicates that our defence is a lot better than they are given credit for.

Basically if we each season turn 3-4 of the defeats and draws into draws and wins we are fighting for the title. Or to put it like this - if that penalty against City had stood and we had avoided a draw against Everton or Leicester, we would be fighting for the championship. Just to put things into perspective for those saying we are miles behind City.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Those Arsenal results still grind my gears, mainly because they're shite and we should really be doing better. I think it was the away game that we really should have one. I know Cavani had a really good chance, and maybe Pogba? Can't remember now. But that team shouldn't be taking those points off us.

 

[Tom Cato]

I decided to look at his record since joining the club. I looked at all competitions and also included Leicester as I now consider them a regular top-side - so the big 7

So against the top teams: Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and Leicester we have:

16 wins, 11 draws and 9 defeats - which is very good considering where we were when he took over. Goal difference 43-37 - so if we remove that freak Spurs-game we are below 1 goal against when we play the topteams - which clearly indicates that our defence is a lot better than they are given credit for.

Basically if we each season turn 3-4 of the defeats and draws into draws and wins we are fighting for the title. Or to put it like this - if that penalty against City had stood and we had avoided a draw against Everton or Leicester, we would be fighting for the championship. Just to put things into perspective for those saying we are miles behind City.

3 or 4 losses on the season is usually enough to win the league if you convert those draws to victories.

Our away record is absolutely insane. If we can go undefeated 3 games away we'll join TWO other teams that have done so in English top football history: Arsenal in 01/02 and 03/04 - And Preston North End in 1888/1889

It doesn't "matter" if we don't win anything, but its for sure a very fun record to have. The record in England is 27 games. With some solid performances we can surpass that.

 

[el3mel]

Those 2 wins against City and Spurs made it look better now at least.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Those 2 wins against City and Spurs made it look better now at least.

Yeah sadly the title race is realistically over now. A bit to late to start picking up big results.

Hopefully next season we can start better in big games and stay in the title race for longer and hopefully win it.

 

[charlenefan]

Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

Looks a bit better now.

Played 9, won 2, drew 5, lost 2 with 1 to play.

I mean, I never took this mini 6 league that seriously to begin with, but Ole is showing the naysayers he can still do it in the bigger matches too.

Ole has shown from day one there's no problem with him in the bigger games

People conveniently just forgot the record against the better sides prior to this season to fit their agenda

 

[The Corinthian]

Ole has shown from day one there's no problem with him in the bigger games

People conveniently just forgot the record against the better sides prior to this season to fit their agenda

Agreed - his big six record has been great in my opinion.

18/19
In the PL:
Spurs 0-1 United
United 0-0 Liverpool
Arsenal 2-0 United
United 0-2 City
United 1-1 Chelsea

FA Cup:
Arsenal 1-3 United
Chelsea 0-2 United

7 games, 3 wins, 2 draws, 2 defeats.

19/20
PL:
United 4-0 Chelsea
United 1-1 Arsenal
United 1-1 Liverpool
United 2-1 Spurs
City 1-2 United
Arsenal 2-0 United
Liverpool 2-0 United
Chelsea 0-2 United
United 2-0 City
Spurs 1-1 United

FA Cup:
Chelsea 3-1 United

League Cup:
Chelsea 1-2 United
United 1-3 City
City 0-1 United

14 games played, 7 wins, 3 draws, 4 defeats.

20/21
PL:
Man Utd 1-6 Spurs
Man Utd 0-0 Chelsea
Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal
Man Utd 0-0 Man City
Liverpool 0-0 Man Utd
Arsenal 0-0 Man Utd
Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd
Man City 0-2 Man Utd
Spurs 1-3 Man Utd

FA Cup:
Man Utd 3-2 Liverpool

League Cup:
Man Utd 0-2 City

So far, it's 11 played, 3 wins, 5 draws, 3 defeats.

That's (in total), 32 played, 13 wins, 10 draws, 9 defeats.

I'd say that's a very good record overall.