So poor recruitment? Cutting the wage bill is not a necessity to improve the squad. Spending it better is.
Our signings under INEOS...
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Why are you doubling down? You sent an article that made zero sense to what you said, gave a source that doesn't exist and are now (once again) plastering info that's completely irrelevant. If you find yourself trying to make out Ogden is some oracle you know it's a bad point. As said, you do you, believe what you wish. I won't repeat myself but if you ever do find that article it would be interesting to see (albeit it's Ogden so hopefully it's backed up by a tier 1).
Doubling down on what? I never said Ogden was some kind of Oracle, but the tier system that you keep referring to is to do with transfer reliability and it has no bearing on what we're discussing. Not sure why you're bringing up a tier system which was purely formed for the purpose of transfers.
If you want to discuss the football side of things as to why ten Hag would push for Mazraoui I'm ready to discuss that but you seem reluctant to engage in conversation.
If you read what I posted and weren't so keen to post loads of irrelevant info, you would see I gave my opinion on Maz in the first reply I made to you. Personally I think it's pretty clear Sir Jim is saying Zirkzee and De Ligt were pushed for by ETH (Di Marzio also backs up Zirkzee being ETH's top choice). Not sure what else to provide in honesty, it seems clear you just won't accept it.
That's fine I can accept that.
If I can, I'd just like to say that from what Ratcliffe said I automatically presumed the two players were definitely de Ligt and Mazraoui due to their Dutch connection with ten Hag at Ajax. Mazraoui himself has been quoted as saying that ten Hag was a big factor in him moving to United.
Di Marzio is also a tier 3 on many tier lists. There was a time about 10 years ago when he was reliable but his reliability as far as transfers go took a nose dive.
I'm going to move on from this, I hope I didn't annoy you too much. If I did, I'm sorry. I don't like to end things on a sour note.
It's fine, it's not like it's that big a deal, we are just nerds - I do actually find it interesting to know who does what (as no one really seems to know for sure). Di Marzio I thought was like god tier, then took a nosedive as he was certain Neymar was going back to Barca and then recovered (but I think for Serie A he's always been good). I always felt Maz was just seen as a low risk punt by Ineos/ETH once AWB was sorted versus the other two being ETH driven.
Moving on from that I do think the recruitment in general has been pretty good though, I even hold some small hope of Ugarte improving - there seems to be a real momentum building in younger players pushing upwards as well which I like.
Paying top wages to players who are not delivering anywhere near a level commensurate with those wages is why we have struggled to sell which makes bringing in replacements even more difficult, and is absolutely part of the reason we have been failing.
Even worse is that so many players were handed wages so far above what was likely required.
If INEOS start short-changing our best performers or skimp on wages for top players who join our rivals moving forward that's a separate issue from getting a wage and fee structure that was not sustainable under control if we ever want to become competitive again.
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Because they're winning, we are not.
INEOS >>>>>>>>>>> Woodward
Mistakes will happen, but atleast they seem understand football
Mistakes will happen, but atleast they seem understand football
The only facts we have are that costs have been slashed across the board. To pretend otherwise is laughable.
No you're not, you're just showing your dislike of Ineos.
Which again comes back to the actual problem. Poor recruitment and poor management.
Agreed. When was the last time any player looked to move from United for a bigger pay packet?
They are signing players that we can at least re-sell if it doesn't work out. Much different to signing Schweinsteiger, Sancho on 300k, Pogba on 350k etc.
Herrera?
So what, the signing was made under them. They signed off on giving 'Aggy an extension too.
Ugarte hasn't made the grade and we should have taken the Villa keeper on loan.
Zirkzee is also struggling, don't expect much from him I'm afraid.
Our issue is the centre of the park, a genuine midfielder...we haven't a midfield player who is anywhere close to playing his best and that's a huge concern.
Zirkzee is also struggling, don't expect much from him I'm afraid.
Our issue is the centre of the park, a genuine midfielder...we haven't a midfield player who is anywhere close to playing his best and that's a huge concern.
Could be, and he would have renewed, as we seemed happy to let his contract run out. O my at the last min did we try to potentially get him to stay?
The next step is not close yet, and if everything goes well in the next 2 seasons, by then, the likes of Cas, Sancho and Rashford, even maybe Bruno would have left, it would simply mean that there would be a significant room in the wage bill to offer top wages to top players without having the overall wage bill increase significantly, if Sesko, Mbeumo and Cunha are our best players by 2027, we can use them as a benchmark and we would only need to offer higher wages to better players, previously bottom level players were offered big wages like Rashford and Sancho, if that stops, then obviously the increase in the wage bill will mean we have gotten top level players, which hopefully translates into a success, City and Madrid have high wage bills because they sign high quality players, we have the a high wage bill because of an incompetent management.
Edit: I think we agree overall, reducing the wage bill is not what matters, what matters is signing top level players, my point is that we are not in the stage to sign top level players (aka the Haalands and Mbappes), so we sign good players that can become top players, and get rid of players who are on high wages but aren't good enough, which will bring the wage bill down and allow us to have room to sign better players.
What matters is achieving top level results
Yep. We've signed many top level players since 2013 and they've pretty much all failed.
I have been critical of Ratcliffe and INEOS but this transfer window has been fine. It has however, put pressure on Amorim. He has to deliver. This is very much his squad now and the board have backed him which is their job.
Cutting it is a necessity if you aren't getting Champs League ROI from your spend. If you are where we are at the moment, and are targeting EL places this season, then you build a squad profile for that, and spend accordingly.
We actually do look much closer to scoring goals in most league games. We could've easily had 5 or 6 in the first half against Burnley alone.
The wage bill isn’t the reason we have financial issues. It’s a deflection that some fans are happy to go along with.
I agree, no one gets all transfers right. But it feels like there is way more of a concept to our transfers. The only thing that really grinds my gears is that they seem to have just as much as blind spot when it comes to the central and defensive midfield as the pervious regime, which is really worrying.
The recruitment of players seems good so far. The age profiles, wages, transfer fees and coherent strategy make sense. One improvement is that the manager is not in charge of choosing transfer targets. Still not convinced about Ugarte and Zirkzee and agree with the philosophy of giving a player 2 years to prove his worth.
Emi Martinez would have been another Woody-style aged, expensive, short term, star player like Varane, Casemiro, Ronaldo, Cavani, Falcao, Ibra. Hopefully one advantage of the INEOS approach will be that they can more easily move out unsuccessful recruits for decent transfer fees so that the club is not stuck with expensive mistakes on high salaries like Sancho and Antony.
The most important recruitment is the manager. Fingers crossed they got that one right.
In summary, overall they are on the right track so far.
I wonder if other clubs, including INEOS, will start going the Chelsea route on transfer strategy and sign loads of young prospects to sell later for a profit.
Emi Martinez would have been another Woody-style aged, expensive, short term, star player like Varane, Casemiro, Ronaldo, Cavani, Falcao, Ibra. Hopefully one advantage of the INEOS approach will be that they can more easily move out unsuccessful recruits for decent transfer fees so that the club is not stuck with expensive mistakes on high salaries like Sancho and Antony.
The most important recruitment is the manager. Fingers crossed they got that one right.
In summary, overall they are on the right track so far.
I wonder if other clubs, including INEOS, will start going the Chelsea route on transfer strategy and sign loads of young prospects to sell later for a profit.
The only clear miss on that list is Ugarte. Poor signing. We will be trying to sell him next summer.
Dorgu and Zirkzee are probably the next one's you have to look at. Dorgu will likely have to be replaced as a starter in the summer. He's still young and might improve, but he's technically lacking. If he's going to be a WB, he needs to produce going forward. He doesn't seem capable of it. Zirkzee had a very bad start, but I think he did show why we bought him in the 2nd half of last season. His performances improved a lot. The main issue he has is finishing. His all around game is decent. I wouldn't use him as our starting #9, but I think he can work as a bench option.
De Ligt has been decent/good. A couple too many injuries, but he's mostly been good. Definitely started this season in excellent form. Hopefully he keeps fit and locks down CCB.
Mazraoui has surprised me. I thought he'd end up being a waste of money, but he was one of our best players last season. 7/10 performances on a consistent basis. Played a large amount of minutes, too. Excellent signing for how much we paid. I think he will be back in the starting XI pretty soon.
Heaven came straight in and looked like a first teamer. For £1M, he has been an excellent signing. Even if he somehow doesn't make it, we should be able to easily make a profit on him.
Yoro is elite. After getting cooked against Southampton last season, he's locked in and been immense. We're going to struggle to keep him. Madrid will be knocking within a couple seasons. The club did a great job getting him to sign for us.
Cunha and Mbeumo are both great signings. PL proven and 2 of the highest scorers in the league last season. They were pretty safe bets.
Too early to tell with Sesko and Lammens. I would have gone for other options, but hopefully picking the younger option works out in the long run. I still believe that it's going to hurt us in the short run. ST and GK are incredibly important positions and we're asking relatively young and inexperienced players to do those roles for us. Lammens especially.
INEOS have made mistakes, but their signings have definitely been better than the Glazer's/Woodward's/Arnold's.
Dorgu and Zirkzee are probably the next one's you have to look at. Dorgu will likely have to be replaced as a starter in the summer. He's still young and might improve, but he's technically lacking. If he's going to be a WB, he needs to produce going forward. He doesn't seem capable of it. Zirkzee had a very bad start, but I think he did show why we bought him in the 2nd half of last season. His performances improved a lot. The main issue he has is finishing. His all around game is decent. I wouldn't use him as our starting #9, but I think he can work as a bench option.
De Ligt has been decent/good. A couple too many injuries, but he's mostly been good. Definitely started this season in excellent form. Hopefully he keeps fit and locks down CCB.
Mazraoui has surprised me. I thought he'd end up being a waste of money, but he was one of our best players last season. 7/10 performances on a consistent basis. Played a large amount of minutes, too. Excellent signing for how much we paid. I think he will be back in the starting XI pretty soon.
Heaven came straight in and looked like a first teamer. For £1M, he has been an excellent signing. Even if he somehow doesn't make it, we should be able to easily make a profit on him.
Yoro is elite. After getting cooked against Southampton last season, he's locked in and been immense. We're going to struggle to keep him. Madrid will be knocking within a couple seasons. The club did a great job getting him to sign for us.
Cunha and Mbeumo are both great signings. PL proven and 2 of the highest scorers in the league last season. They were pretty safe bets.
Too early to tell with Sesko and Lammens. I would have gone for other options, but hopefully picking the younger option works out in the long run. I still believe that it's going to hurt us in the short run. ST and GK are incredibly important positions and we're asking relatively young and inexperienced players to do those roles for us. Lammens especially.
INEOS have made mistakes, but their signings have definitely been better than the Glazer's/Woodward's/Arnold's.
Disgusting list. Not one player was worth buying. Martinez probably would have been if he didn't keep getting injured.
Under INEOS' tenure maybe, but not under the current executive team / structure.
I agree with everything in this post. The frustrating thing about Ugarte is that I’ve seen him turn in some fantastic performances and I thought I can see why they’ve signed him. Not this season so far. Frustrating as Amorim got the best out him in the past. Dorgu frustrates me, he was fantastic in pre season. He looked strong, athletic and one of our best players. Can’t understand what I’ve seen so far this season, it’s like he chokes under PL pressure.
Out signings this year just got us 3 points. Massive improvements
Honestly the difference between that v.s. Garnacho and Rashford stinking out the gaff, it's night and day.
Mbeumo and Cunha were brilliant signings. Dorgu is the one that still baffles me
He could do better but his signing seems quite consistent with our recent principles. Young and physical player who didn't cost a lot. He also did very well in ball progression and take-on stats.
Ultimately, not every signing will be a success but if we are being true to our criteria and not overpaying (fee or wages) that should be the goal ?
I am remaining optimistic on Dorgu. He was great pre season. Ugarte and Zirkzee haven’t exactly set the world alight. With Dorgu the thing I am trying to bear in mind is his age, not many superstars around at 20.
The ineos record is better than the vase majority of teams
Its a weird one with him, at times I see him play like in Pre season, I thought, okay he can have a great season for us, he will do well because he is athletic and strong.
The start of the season, he's been quite poor, we have struggled in games he has started, same with all the squad players really. So, is this because they aren't playing regularly?
Mainoo, Ugarte, Zirkzee, Dorgu have all looked below the required level. However; you look at players like Maguire, Yoro, Mount, Sesko, Cunha who are rotated, they don't look as bad.
The strategy this pre season was tried and tested UTD of old.
Cantona
Cole
Yorke
Tevez
Berbatov
Keane
Ferdinand
Rooney
Van Persie
They were all taken from clubs below us in the league (maybe not Cole, Cantona, Van Persie).
But what they all had in common was they were the best players in the PL from clubs that didn’t have the pull we had.
The strategy this summer was to take the best attackers from the non top 4/5 teams. We tried to get a striker from Ipswich too but were beaten by a champions league team so we got Sesko.
There was a great deal of media speculation saying we overpayed for Embeumo due to a pl tax. We all know that’s not true. If any of the big clubs go get Samenyo for £70m next year that would be a great deal.
I also like the strategy of fixing an area at a time, last season throw the money at defence, this season attack, hopefully next year midfield. It’s a strategy that could bring massive rewards. No matter what anyone says about Ineous (they have made mistakes) but no one can say they haven’t been relentless and have gone all in.
It's a strategy every top team does on every country.
Totally agree but apart from Mata, Lukaku, Mount, Sanchez, Fellaini, we’ve seemed to just shop abroad for 11 years. I suppose you could argue none of those players worked. Dury is out on Mount though he’s been great so far this season.
Shaw, Maguire, Erikson.