Our team selection against Spurs...

Leethal

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@Rozay

So basically, no matter what argument anyone gives, you've made your decision already. Why post in a discussion forum, if there is to be no discussion? It's your way or the highway - clearly.

People have already gave their opinions on why Ole went with said team selection, but their opinion will not change your already predetermined agenda - rendering it a moot discussion.

I don't post here often, despite lurking for some 12 years, but your post irked me as it reeks of arrogance and typifies the modern culture of fans.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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And Pogba was fit to play against Spurs in March, let alone June. And just because YOU couldn’t see how fit he was from your armchair, those that work with him should have seen that he was fit. After all, he has started every game since, so he was clearly fit. Otherwise we should still be rotating him now to get fitter.

This point you make of ‘player comes on, does well, earns his spot -completely normal’ doesn’t wash when the player you are speaking of is not an understudy in the first place. Pogba earned his spot because he’s better than those he replaced. That’s w in a choice between them, he should start when fit. He’s the better player. You could start the worse player, bring the better one on, and then when they are better, say ‘they have earned it now’, but that would be a pointless exercise - and self-deprivation of your strongest team from the start.
What fit? You need to know the difference between being fit again to training with being fit again to play full match. In order to be back to fit in match, he needs to play some minutes first and he didn't have any minutes in March or April due to pandemic. The friendlies & the spurs cameo was the minutes he got before he's ready to start the games.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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@Rozay

So basically, no matter what argument anyone gives, you've made your decision already. Why post in a discussion forum, if there is to be no discussion? It's your way or the highway - clearly.

People have already gave their opinions on why Ole went with said team selection, but their opinion will not change your already predetermined agenda - rendering it a moot discussion.

I don't post here often, despite lurking for some 12 years, but your post irked me as it reeks of arrogance and typifies the modern culture of fans.
Spot on. Completely neglect all reasonable reasons why the manager did it.
 

LoneStar

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he started with the team that was doing brilliant before lockdown
He made the right call
This, also Pogba was an unknown coming from a long term injury. And he wouldn’t know how he would react to such a big match.

Fair from Ole there, and I highly doubt those two points are what will decide the top 4. (If that does happen, it will be more due to the losses prior to the break than anything else)
 

SadlerMUFC

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My thoughts going into that game were that Tottenham would be parking their bus. Because of that, I said James shouldn't be starting. I didn't go with Greenwood though. I went with Mata thinking that we would need smart players, not fast players. I also thought Pogba should be starting it, but also understood that perhaps Ole didn't start him because he was still getting up to fitness. Either way, I would have rather had Pogba for the first 60 minutes than the last 30. I can also pretty much guarantee that most people weren't calling for the starting 11 we are seeing now. I was close. just one player off. Kind of feel for McTominay and Fred though. They haven't done anything wrong. They just aren't as good as Matic and Pogba and we can't afford to have anything but our best players in the starting 11 right now...
 

SAFMUTD

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Specially James its clear as day that he shouldnt start for any decent side in the EPL, maybe even in the lower sides.
 

ReallyUSA

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I said Pogba was a must start and I had everyone quoting me destroying my opinion. He made an instant impact and if he started we win.
 

SirScholes

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You do realise Sheffield United had been clearly better than Spurs all season at that point right? We beat them comfortably because we had much better footballers than them. If we had Scott, Fred and James - our XI would have been closer to theirs in terms of quality. The game was billed as a key CL contest, it was meant to be just as tough.
You do realise Spurs away will always be a harder game with their big game players than Sheffield at home.
So again, different team for a different opponent with different strengths and weaknesses.

Its not uncommon for managers to keep faith with an inform team, that’s not as you put it “school” it’s called management
Players need to see if you make it into the first team and perform well you are rewarded with further starts
 

MadDogg

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Pogba had been out for so long it was understandable not to start him. There also hadn't been 'that' much of a difference between James and Greenwood before the break, with Greenwood starting to push ahead of him just before it but James had started the season well so it could be hoped the same would happen after the break.

The big problem was that we waited too long to make the substitutions. Should have been on at half time, or at the very least tell the guys they had 5 or so minutes to really make an impact in the second half before the subs were made. Not waste another 17 minutes with the same issue.

It's the one big problem I have with Ole. He takes too long to make the subs that obviously need to happen.
 

Rozay

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Yea let's take a risk to start Pogba against Spurs who has been injured very long time. And when he got injured due to lack of match fitness like other players who got injured in the first game after restart, let's create a thread of "why did the manager start a player who is not ready to play more than 45 minutes of football". Nothing will make the fans pleased when clearly the decision was correct. If Pogba got injured, it'll be worse and good thing you are not the manager. You're not reading the point at all.
And you’re not reading mine. For a start, it’s a ridiculous assumption that if Pogba started, he’d be injured. Simply because other footballers got injured. And if that were relevant, Rashford would not start either.
 

Rozay

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What fit? You need to know the difference between being fit again to training with being fit again to play full match. In order to be back to fit in match, he needs to play some minutes first and he didn't have any minutes in March or April due to pandemic. The friendlies & the spurs cameo was the minutes he got before he's ready to start the games.
And what were Rashford’s minutes before Spurs?

And him starting didn’t mean he’d have to play 90 minutes anyway.
 

Berbasbullet

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he started with the team that was doing brilliant before lockdown
He made the right call
This, and certain players played their way out of the side, which is how squads should work. Was great management.
 

Rozay

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You do realise Spurs away will always be a harder game with their big game players than Sheffield at home.
So again, different team for a different opponent with different strengths and weaknesses.

Its not uncommon for managers to keep faith with an inform team, that’s not as you put it “school” it’s called management
Players need to see if you make it into the first team and perform well you are rewarded with further starts
So why haven’t they been rewarded with further starts then? Or does a good 20 mins from Pogba render their 6 months without him irrelevant?
 

Berbasbullet

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And you’re not reading mine. For a start, it’s a ridiculous assumption that if Pogba started, he’d be injured. Simply because other footballers got injured. And if that were relevant, Rashford would not start either.
Why is it ridiculous? Rashford and Pogba had 2 different injuries and there's no point in comparing them as we don't know what their fitness levels etc were like.

It's a good point after months our players are more likely to suffer injuries in the first game back.
 

Rozay

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@Rozay

So basically, no matter what argument anyone gives, you've made your decision already. Why post in a discussion forum, if there is to be no discussion? It's your way or the highway - clearly.

People have already gave their opinions on why Ole went with said team selection, but their opinion will not change your already predetermined agenda - rendering it a moot discussion.

I don't post here often, despite lurking for some 12 years, but your post irked me as it reeks of arrogance and typifies the modern culture of fans.
Yes, I have made my decision. Or you have an issue that I have not changed my mind, because I have been instructed too by other posters? Go back to lurking mate. Why on earth should I change my view? Has it been ‘disproven’ or something?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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And what were Rashford’s minutes before Spurs?

And him starting didn’t mean he’d have to play 90 minutes anyway.
Pogba has been missing more games than Rashford and been injured fist before Rashford did. Rashford also didn't look sharp against Spurs. I have mentioned these two sentences before and you still asked the question that has been answered. You're not reading mate and that's why you are having difficulty to understand everything. Or you are simply refuse to listen to anything.
 

roonster09

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Pogba should have started but I don't call it as bad selection. Ole went with the team that was doing well and introduced Pogba slowly who barely played in last 8-10 months, he did superbly and then made it no brainer to start him all the time.
 

Berbasbullet

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Damned if he did or didn't, if we didn't get a result the same posters moaning about not getting a result would have been disappointed that pogba just got thrown back in place of one of our midfielders who was playing well.
 
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Havak

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While Spurs aren't setting the world alight, I think that most of this presumption is based on their result against Sheffield United. They are looking more like a Mourinho team and difficult to beat bar the game against the Blades:

1-1 vs. Man Utd
2-0 vs. West Ham
1-3 vs. Sheffield United
1-0 vs. Everton

The Sheffield United game was a calamity, but other than that the only goal they conceded was a penalty against us - no goals against in open play from the other three games. They look less expansive but more solid, so maybe José's coaching is working now that he's had additional time? You could argue his game plan and style worked for the most-part so far, 3/4 times.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Pogba hadn't played a full game since last year and Rashford was far from fully fit. Spurs were seen as a top 4 rival at that stage and going into an away game against them with Mourinho at the helm was always going to be somewhat difficult. Who's to say that Greenwood & Pogba starting the first game back wouldn't have been as ineffective as Kane was playing his first game back?

Admittedly, if this game was next rather than first, we'd probably be going all-out with the current best XI we have figured out. Regardless, I don't disagree with Ole's selection. We might have won the game as the changes improved us a lot when certain players only had to play 30~ minutes and we were well in the game for all of it.
 

Rozay

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Why is it ridiculous? Rashford and Pogba had 2 different injuries and there's no point in comparing them as we don't know what their fitness levels etc were like.

It's a good point after months out players are more likely to suffer injuries in the first game back.
There were literally 3 players starting that game for either side who had been injured long term. Many players got injured after the break, who had not been injured before. Many players got injured before the break too.

Pogba wasn’t started because Ole felt it would be unkind to players who had played in his absence. The reasoning has some nobility to it, but the rationale is open for question if it doesn’t get the job done. Any such plan to take it slow was abandoned after 20 minutes back. That’s because it would obviously have been a silly thing to continue with by that stage.

Before the game, many posters advocated Pogba ‘earning his place’. I can bring up the comments. The idea was that he comes off the bench for a few games then starts in the Cup, and we ‘see if he’s up to it.’ This is because they had grown quite fond of the players who had been playing. After 20 mins vs Spurs, none of them were advocating that we continued this easing process, or that Pogba doesn’t start until the cup etc. The idea was clearly not the right one from the beginning, and in retrospect - a mistake. Pogba should have been playing. Only if you had become so won over by the form of the others that you had believed it was a good enough standard, or you had bought into some sort of ‘we have to see if Pogba ‘wants to play’ nonsense’ would you advocate for him, in the most important stage of the season, to be starting on the bench until he shows he is ‘good enough to get into this team’. Those ideas have clearly been proved silly. We’ve watched as it happened. So why is it beyond anyone to say it perhaps wasn’t the best plan in the first place? It was a plan based upon misjudgements of Pogba’s attitude, and Fred and McTominay’s quality. He had been injured for months, I get it. But he’d been back in training for 4 months too. If he can’t play 90, don’t let him play 90. And nobody had played football in 3 months. Would he have to start on the bench on the first day of a new season too? Only for it to be abandoned from the very next game?

I know Rashford and Pogba had ‘different injuries’. Rashford had a broken back for heavens sake! He had also returned to training much later than Pogba. Or must we compare only broken foot with broken foot? Sissoko and Kane also both started. In hindsight, you still feel that it was right not to play Pogba. If we miss out by a point, it is very valid to question whether the team we player in every game since, starting from just 4 days later, should have played vs Spurs too. We never know the outcome, of course, but the question is valid and obvious I think.

And this is before we even get in to Greenwood and Matić. It’s one thing to say us as fans can defend the selection. Us fans are often idiots, and have no real insight. Many wanted Pogba on the bench because they were in their feelings. They thought many things about him, and now we ‘already have a good midfield, HE is the one that needs to prove he is of the level’. Ole, on the other hand, doesn’t have the fan excuse. He is with Pogba and the rest daily. He should have observed that Pogba’s attitude was right to play, and that he is clearly good enough to play ahead of the others. He trains with them. It’s not as if I can’t see his logic, I’m saying that in hindsight it is open to question. Just like I could see Poch’s logic in starting Kane vs Liverpool in the CL Final, but given the result and performance, it is open to question as to whether he should have started Moura. That is football. When you make a call that could have gone the other way, it comes down to the outcome. It was a surprise to many when news articles started appearing a few days before that Pogba would start on the bench. They wrote articles on it because the expectation was that Pogba would play if fit. He didn’t, but came off the bench to rescue a point. Yet I’m not entitled, at all, to ask whether he should have started?
 

charlenefan

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In hindsight it was a questionable decision given Pogba has started every meaningful game since but what do I know maybe he needed a cameo before starting? No idea
 

Berbasbullet

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There were literally 3 players starting that game for either side who had been injured long term. Many players got injured after the break, who had not been injured before. Many players got injured before the break too.

Pogba wasn’t started because Ole felt it would be unkind to players who had played in his absence. The reasoning has some nobility to it, but the rationale is open for question if it doesn’t get the job done. Any such plan to take it slow was abandoned after 20 minutes back. That’s because it would obviously have been a silly thing to continue with by that stage.

Before the game, many posters advocated Pogba ‘earning his place’. I can bring up the comments. The idea was that he comes off the bench for a few games then starts in the Cup, and we ‘see if he’s up to it.’ This is because they had grown quite fond of the players who had been playing. After 20 mins vs Spurs, none of them were advocating that we continued this easing process, or that Pogba doesn’t start until the cup etc. The idea was clearly not the right one from the beginning, and in retrospect - a mistake. Pogba should have been playing. Only if you had become so won over by the form of the others that you had believed it was a good enough standard, or you had bought into some sort of ‘we have to see if Pogba ‘wants to play’ nonsense’ would you advocate for him, in the most important stage of the season, to be starting on the bench until he shows he is ‘good enough to get into this team’. Those ideas have clearly been proved silly. We’ve watched as it happened. So why is it beyond anyone to say it perhaps wasn’t the best plan in the first place? It was a plan based upon misjudgements of Pogba’s attitude, and Fred and McTominay’s quality. He had been injured for months, I get it. But he’d been back in training for 4 months too. If he can’t play 90, don’t let him play 90. And nobody had played football in 3 months. Would he have to start on the bench on the first day of a new season too? Only for it to be abandoned from the very next game?

I know Rashford and Pogba had ‘different injuries’. Rashford had a broken back for heavens sake! He had also returned to training much later than Pogba. Or must we compare only broken foot with broken foot? Sissoko and Kane also both started. In hindsight, you still feel that it was right not to play Pogba. If we miss out by a point, it is very valid to question whether the team we player in every game since, starting from just 4 days later, should have played vs Spurs too. We never know the outcome, of course, but the question is valid and obvious I think.

And this is before we even get in to Greenwood and Matić. It’s one thing to say us as fans can defend the selection. Us fans are often idiots, and have no real insight. Many wanted Pogba on the bench because they were in their feelings. They thought many things about him, and now we ‘already have a good midfield, HE is the one that needs to prove he is of the level’. Ole, on the other hand, doesn’t have the fan excuse. He is with Pogba and the rest daily. He should have observed that Pogba’s attitude was right to play, and that he is clearly good enough to play ahead of the others. He trains with them. It’s not as if I can’t see his logic, I’m saying that in hindsight it is open to question. Just like I could see Poch’s logic in starting Kane vs Liverpool in the CL Final, but given the result and performance, it is open to question as to whether he should have started Moura. That is football. When you make a call that could have gone the other way, it comes down to the outcome. It was a surprise to many when news articles started appearing a few days before that Pogba would start on the bench. They wrote articles on it because the expectation was that Pogba would play if fit. He didn’t, but came off the bench to rescue a point. Yet I’m not entitled, at all, to ask whether he should have started?
I honestly can't be bothered to reply to all that, but I see why you're called master of hindsight. I never said you weren't entitled to ask anything.
 

Web of Bissaka

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It's a sensible starting 11.
  • Ole may felt unsure if Bruno+Pogba will be balance. He hasn't tried it but planning to. It's a big risk to try it straightaway.
  • It's up against Mou who may seek to exploit Pogba's known defensive frailty.
  • Pogba hasn't gain "match fit" <-- different than fitness.
  • McT or Matic-Fred + Bruno have been working well before the restart.
  • Two of McT, Matic and Fred would provide the extra security needed vs a top team.
  • McT and Fred preferred rightly than Matic because they're much better dealing with the expected paces from Spurs attackers.
  • James last time brought problems to Spurs LB.

The only thing not sensible is the late substitutions being too late.
Could've been earlier.
  • James -> Greenwood latest should be half-time. James is totally non-existent.
  • Pogba should be latest by 50' min, considering how there're no difference, we still find it hard to break defense.
  • Ighalo could've come on earlier at 70' min for either one of Martial or Rashford (Rash for me, but he's Ole's fav, and Martial is better in breaking low blocks with his dribblings and creative play).

Let's just move on.
Immediately, starting the next game onwards (except FAC rotations), Ole started with the best 11 (Pogba, Greenwood, Matic, etc).
 
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acnumber9

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he started with the team that was doing brilliant before lockdown
He made the right call
He didn’t really, because Matić was one of the big reasons for that form. No point crying about it now but it was a mistake.
 

SirScholes

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So why haven’t they been rewarded with further starts then? Or does a good 20 mins from Pogba render their 6 months without him irrelevant?
You’re over simplifying it because you don’t have a case otherwise.
thankfully Ole won’t just be judging him off a 20 minute game, I imagine he’d been doing well in training and after seeing him perform well in a live match, felt confident in his selection for future games, again, solid management. You seem to be forgetting he was hardly flavour of the month prior to his injuries and lockdown.

Also out of the 5 games, he’s started 3 of them and only completed 90 minutes in 1 of them.

we were expected to dominate possession in the other games which means less match fitness required. Having him to bring on in the first game back was much better than having to take him off when he’s shattered.
 

In Rainbows

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Pogba has been injured all season while Scott & Fred have been playing in our midfield most of the time this season and performed very well. They were part of the starting XI who beats the likes of Leicester, Chelsea, City, Spurs & drew to Liverpool. The selection against Spurs makes sense, I don't know why people don't understand why the manager did it. Move on.
I really don't want to criticize Ole and it's not my intention with this post, but the logic fails in my eyes.

Yes Pogba was injured, but that goes out the window when there was a 3 month break. Players who were playing prior to the covid break should have no advantage over someone coming back. And the logic for this is simple. How long is the summer break? Surely it's at least half as short as the Covid break. And after a summer break, there is a preseason precisely because everyone needs to be caught up to speed.

So why is it that someone like Pogba should operate different in regards to fitness than say Fred? And why is it different from the usual pre season period? All were equally away from match fitness for longer than the usual summer break. If Summer is enough time to tear away at people's fitness, then a longer COVID break should do the same.
 

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Even if he had started with Pogs/Fernandez/Matic/Greenwood etc. ... they probably wouldn't have played anything like they're playing now.

Remember it was the first game back, and pretty much every team looked sluggish in that first game (only four teams managed to score a first half goal - Spurs being one of them). So to just assume they'd have been brilliant and we'd have definitely won the game is pretty fanciful.
 

SirScholes

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He didn’t really, because Matić was one of the big reasons for that form. No point crying about it now but it was a mistake.
He was in and out the team, from looking at the last 10 or so games but there were a lot of cup games granted. Fred Mctom and matic were all very important whether they started or game on from the bench.
I don’t think matic starting over Mctom effects the out come of that game one bit, individual errors from a cb and gk led to the opener

but you’re right, this is all “post game” thread material and irrelevant at this point
 

izec

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The issue wasn't the starting ineup. It was the changes, or non changes respectively changing too late, that played a bigger factor. Spurs were there for the taking but he was happy with the point.
 

SoCross

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We’ve won every game after the Spurs game so maybe not starting with Pogba and Matic and Greenwood was the right call?
:D

hope the above demonstrates that hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 

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I didn’t say they cost us the game. They just didn’t win it. A better team may well have just won us the game, due to creating and scoring some goals perhaps. Given the nature of our own goal, some better players on for longer may have won us the game. He played the team that had been the strongest all season, that were 5th in the league. They weren’t the strongest because they has objectively played better than Pogba either, he hadn’t been available. The team needed to get better.

I don’t think people can still take this stand on this whole ‘Pogba needed to earn his place’. When everyone was discussing that during the lockdown, I doubt anyone anticipated earning his place would take 20 minutes. If it was so right, we should have continued with the team who had been the best all season. Keep playing Scott and Fred and giving Pogba a run-out. That stopped immediately because Pogba is better than the other two, and obviously part of our strongest XI. Apparently, it wasn’t obvious before 20 minutes against Spurs. Is that it really?

And Greenwood was 18 then, and was still 18 a week later, when Ole decided he needed to start him every match. Because he is better than James, I presume. Just as he was before the Spurs game. Fact is, we didn’t go with our best team in that game, and we didn’t win it. We can’t guarantee we would have won it either way, but if we went with our best team and failed to, at least we would know it wasn’t because we had better players on the bench than we did on the pitch. As it stands, there is scope to question the team selection. We played a weaker team than we have in the other games, and got a worse result. How can the lineup not be questioned? Especially when everyone has been so happy for us to never play that lineup again since?
doesn't even need to be argued. I was eagerly awaiting Pogba's introduction during the Spurs came so that I can see what we are like at full strength (Pogba and Bruno) and how they will play together. Everyone knows that was the preferred line up and the future line up.
 

Keefy18

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So basically he owed them to start them? Players that he knew before the game were not as good as what he had on the bench?
Yes.

How short some people's memories are cause I recall many supporters saying Pogba didn't deserve to start due to his supposed faking injuries, bad attitude etc etc etc...

Fred & McTominay deserved to be shown some loyalty, so they started. Ole has proven himself to be a fantastic man manager thus far and if he just dropped them without Pogba proving himself then it causes unrest within the camp.
 

CamsUnited

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Smacks of....
Beat City before lockdown, unbeaten in 15/16 matches, semi final of the FA Cup... I can’t find anything to slate OGS for... wait a minute... why didn’t he start a player who hadn’t started a game since Sept..
Bore off!
 

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We’ve won every game after the Spurs game so maybe not starting with Pogba and Matic and Greenwood was the right call?
:D

hope the above demonstrates that hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The hindsight here is also a bit misguided as the circumstances for that Spurs game are totally different to the games that followed.
 

RedRob

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Now ‘what ifs’ are of course inconclusive, but I haven’t been able to stop thinking about this.

Spurs are just above average and were there for the taking. We started that game with Pogba, Matic and Greenwood on the bench - and we dropped two points. Two points in the home stretch where every point is crucial. I can’t help but think that not going with our better football players may prove costly for us this season. From Ole’s comments around the match, it seems that he selected some players out of loyalty perhaps, and there just isn’t any room for that at this stage. James, McTominay and Fred have not started a league game since then, and we’ve won all of them comfortably. Was a huge mistake from Ole I think, much as I love him.
Pogba had only completed 90 minutes in 6 games this season at that stage. Many of our first team may have been unfit, but you can understand why Ole may have been reluctant to go with two players (Rashford) coming back from a long-term layoff prior to lockdown against a good side in Spurs. It was a conservative lineup, but an understandable one.

It's a shame we were overly cautious but we can't live on 'what ifs'. What matters is that in this moment, our fate is in our hands & if we win every game we are guaranteed to finish top four.

If we do fail to make the CL, dropping two points away at Spurs isn't going to be where we lost it, losing to Palace, West Ham, Newcastle, Bournemouth, Watford, Burnley etc is what screwed us this season.
Absolutely. Three points are three points and a screwed-up result is a screwed-up result. I'm not sure why people tend to think that dropped points are a bigger deal at this stage of the season than at any other time.
 

Mcking

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One thing I'm convinced about is that McTominay had no business starting ahead of Matic. People talk about starting with the team that was doing well before the break but seem to ignore that it was Matic, not McTominay that was in midfield for those games prior to the break.

Ole simply should have ignored sentiments and gone with the best available team for the game. He didn't, and he put us in a worse position to win the game.