Ye I felt like it improved. We play the same line up for quite a number of consecutive matches last season. Utd will always have players made out of glass - Jones, Rojo, Shaw but in general I thought it wasnt so bad last year. Rashford hurt his back and Pogba was out but they dont usually miss many games right
Ousmane Dembele
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Agree with this.
If he's a sick note we just send him back and we haven't lost much. Maybe he makes a couple dozen appearances and lets us not run an 18 year old kid into the ground chasing trophies. That works for me.
If he's not a sick note then we get a really good player for a year, maybe longer.
I'd take that deal but add a clause that he has to play a certain amount of games for the obligation to be triggered. If he's incapable of playing a decent amount of games then no way should we be obligated to take him.
That's not down to the manager's training but down to manager finds players like Maguire, Bruno, Bissaka & James who aren't injury prone & capable to withstand with the manager's training and playing style. There is no much of reason how Dembele can withstand Ole's training & playing style without being an injury prone player with the likes of our current attackers.
Have we actually had any credible links to him or is this all speculation. I think he’s the beat possible alternative to Sancho personally if he’s available, especially if we can sort a loan deal out.
He’s on €230k a week, plus the loan fee we’d have to pay. So approx ‘only’ €17 million, pocket money for some
I dont want Dembele at Utd. Would not be a good signing for us. Injuries/attitude/inconsistencies. I dont know where that story has come from, probably Barca want to offload him and as usual our name is linked.
Barcelona will be looking for a loan fee and it’d probably be around 10m, his wages is probably about 15m a season so that’s already 25m.
It’s likely that they will consider without obligation to buy imo as they are not in a strongest of position.
It would end up being a waste signing.
He’s already picking up too many injuries in La Liga so how on earth is the solution playing him in a faster more physical league?
I’d genuinely rather have Bale on loan.
He’s already picking up too many injuries in La Liga so how on earth is the solution playing him in a faster more physical league?
I’d genuinely rather have Bale on loan.
There is no corrolation between a player injuries and the league he plays in. He wasn't injured in Bundesliga who is a more physical league. With injuries a part is due to luck and the other on how a player trains, Barcelona have a pretty bad record when it comes to muscular injuries and players coming back from injuries.
Agreed - one of the things that kept being stressed about transfers under Ole was the importance of fit, that potential signings weren't just judged on footballing ability, but also on their character. I just don't see how that fits with signing someone like Dembele - someone who's been disruptive at his last two clubs, who'd come in on big wages, with significant injury problems...
So, I also agree that I think the links to Dembele are bs - it's Barca desperate to offload some of their insane wage-bill, linking players to us to get other clubs interested
Sancho's professionalism is just as bad, but you'd be hard done finding people that wouldn't want him here
Generally for Sancho people tend to assume the best case scenario will happen if he joins us. Not the case for this guy.
Through his immature approach to the gilded life his natural talents have gifted him, I reckon Dembele falls into the “arsehole” category Ole was talking about.
Spoiler 19/20 shows 404 page not found. Where is this improvement you see? I don't see improvement from Jones, Tuanzebe, Bailly and even Shaw still hit injuries. Mctominay also hit same amount injuries as last season, Dalot is constantly hitting injuries while Sanchez is no longer in the squad anymore.
I updated it. We are having less muscular injuries, because the intensity has increased. Therefore increases in intensity on the pitch don't shock the body as much. Even going off the big injuries this season, most of them have been concussions or breaks (Pogba, Rashford, Bailly, Williams) etc.
Barca have a bad record with muscular injuries, as they've adapted their training methods to accommodate the ageing old guard.
Or he falls into the category of players that needs mentoring? Most of the stories people are talking about are from a 19-20 years old.
Immature? perhaps.
Asshole? what has he done so bad to be called that? late to training
Rooney turned up drunk to training several times, is he also an asshole?
Yes, and he made a big move very early on away from home. A little too early, and he got lost. I’m not sure a second big move away from home will help him, I’m trying to think which French players may help him at United, I suppose Pogba and Martial are big figures. His injury record of course is also poor so there isn’t evidence he’s “that” good any more I’d say. It all kinda bubbles together.
Oh I was just using Ole’s word, I don’t assume he’s unpleasant etc I just think his work ethic is unproven and his talent ultimately unproven. I don’t want a “risk” on the right wing, the days of “gambling” need to be over. I’m thinking of Depay, another one of those who had a reputation, believed it but didn’t perform.Immature? perhaps.
Asshole? what has he done so bad to be called that? late to training
Rooney turned up drunk to training several times, is he also an asshole?
You are using October 2019 article for 19/20 injuries while you used May 2019 article for 18/19 injuries. What is the message you are trying to tell me here by comparing 2 months period of 19/20 season with full season 18/19 season? It's like saying Leicester is better than United if we only judge it based on the first of three months performance of 19/20 season.
High intensity training doesn't change our injury prone players to less injury prone but only makes our non injury prone players fitter.
I'm not sure about the second part of your post unless if you only take this lost season as a reference, his productivity in Barcelona despite his injuries shows that he is that good.
He's had some bad injuries but players can over come that.
I don't think performance wise he'd be a gamble as he clearly is a very good player capable of scoring world class goals individually, but we'd have to make sure it's a deal that gives us a safety net if it did go wrong.
From transfer market this is number of games available and games missed due to injury
1210 144 19/20 (11.9%)
973 85 18/19 (8.73%)
1009 141 17/18 (13.8%)
1108 102 16/17 (9.2%)
I don't think there a massive improvements from Ole, but nor do I think he's making it worse.
1210 144 19/20 (11.9%)
973 85 18/19 (8.73%)
1009 141 17/18 (13.8%)
1108 102 16/17 (9.2%)
I don't think there a massive improvements from Ole, but nor do I think he's making it worse.
Generally the evidence is though that players who have muscular/ligament type injuries don't recover very well, if he had come back say and had played 2 months of games but we were taking a risk that he would stay fit I would see that as one thing. However we are looking at a player who has been on and off injured with muscular injuries, who is coming back from being out for seven months. Unless we can get him on a free loan, with an option to buy I am not sure there is any value in potentially spending 30m of our budget on a player who we might get 10 games from.
The season has not concluded yet, I could not locate data regarding the season up until this point. I will get back to you on that one. We went from being far and away ahead of everyone else, to much better over that short period though
I'm talking purely muscular injuries though. There are some injuries obviously that just cannot be avoided. For example this season, we've had Pogba and Rashford both miss extremely large parts of the season to fractures, which are just very unfortunate.
I don't think it's unfair to say we've been having less injuries as a result of fatigue etc.
The evidence points to the opposite since almost all injuries are one of these things and players generally comeback perfectly fine and I'm talking about thousands of injuries every seasons.
I don't know how you want to compare Dembele's case who is more in the category of Tuanzebe, Jones, Bailly to the likes of Rashford, Maguire, Bissaka & Lindelof. Give Ole a 26 or 27 yo Michael Owen, he won't improve his injury record. You are struggling to see the difference between injury prone proven with no injury prone proven.
Ah, perhaps I’ll have another look at those stats. Watching him play though I haven’t really liked his decision making or a lot of his running up what seemed to be blind alleys.
First of all, my apologies about misquoting the price. You’re probably right and he mustn’t have fulfilled all the add-on obligations.
Also - my apologies again, I didn’t mean to say ‘thanks to him (Dembele)’ in a direct tone aimed at Dembele. Obviously his injuries are not his own fault. What I meant to say was thanks to his injury record, the acquisition of him has been a loss more than anything else to Barca.
But I think decisions regarding Dembele are, how should I say this, past the point where you try to make sense of whatever you decide to do now. The decisions may appear stupid but as a business, and one that is in deep financial trouble as Barca seem to be in, the question is do we minimize our losses or lose more now than what we’ve already lost.
The noise coming out of Barca has been indicating that they love him and he’s there for the long term so I wouldn’t even be surprised if they continue to show faith in him knowing he’s still mad young and could get past all his issues.
But all my points are based on the long term perspective. I think Barca are at a very critical point now. He has 2 years left on his contract. If he gets injured again they’re stuck with him and maybe more definitely. Then they may even lose him on a free transfer once his contract is over. So if they truly are in a financial crisis and a club does come offer to take him away, they may not feel as confident about keeping him then let’s say they did even last year.
The reason I think how I do, is because in most cases, clubs don’t like to hold on players that are becoming more and more of a liability with each passing day. Just look at us with Sanchez. We can see he’s back in form and performing but we’d rather he go be another clubs asset and potential liability then our own at his age. Dembele is young, sure, but his injury record is like that of a 30 year old in a way and with 2 years left on a contract, will he fetch any fees with a year left? I can assure you Barca will not be able to answer that question definitely because what if he gets injured again. Nobody will come and pay for him. They’ll just wait to take a risk on him if he’s available on a free transfer.
Also - I didn’t hold Dembele’s price tag over him. But I do hold that price tag as a huge burden on Barca as a club. Letting him go will be a bad move as you say but to say it won’t make enough or much of a difference to their financial predicament is totally not true. Just like based on my long term approach, they can either be content with receiving whatever they can for him this summer with a straight out sale or a loan + obligation to buy next summer. Because if they don’t decide to sell him, whatever amount they would’ve received will not be incoming and if his injuries continue, that amount will basically be an added loss by the time his contract ends. So essentially 105m lost. As compared to receiving even up to 50m by getting rid of him. I hope you get where I’m coming from now.
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He wasn't injury prone at all prior to moving to Barcelona though, a team that is quite infamous for muscular injuries. It could well be a concidence that he's suddenly become so injury prone, but I think there's more to it, given Barcelona are known not to exert too much, instead relying on ball movement etc.
My real concerns with him are the injuries rather than the off field stuff. I definitely think we have the right people to help with that.
Would only be right to consider a loan with obligation to buy if he showed that he was capable of being able to play enough games.
Will be interesting to see how he plays tonight in a big game if given the opportunity considering how long he has been out for.
Would only be right to consider a loan with obligation to buy if he showed that he was capable of being able to play enough games.
Will be interesting to see how he plays tonight in a big game if given the opportunity considering how long he has been out for.
I think some or most of his injuries are due to his training regime at Barca. So I actually blame the club and not him. I don’t think he was handled well and it’s just bad news for him if he stays there.
Working under a manager like Ole will vastly improve his fitness and work ethic levels. More so then his levels at Barca. Just my opinion but I do surely think that.
Your logic will only works if players got injured after playing constantly 25 plus games in a row. That way it makes sense to say that the player got injured after 25 league games based on lack of sharpness in his fitness due to not enough intensity in building the fitness in the early season.
However, your logic doesn't apply because Dembele still gets his injuries despite of not playing games in many consecutive matches. Even at Dortmund, he only had 22 league starter while the other of his 10 appearances came from the bench. While with Rennes, he only had 22 league starter while the other of his 4 appearances came from the bench. You have to start questioning why he never hit 25 plus league games of starting XI in his 5 seasons of professional career? Are we really going to make a player who can't even get 25 plus league starting XI games as alternative of Jadon Sancho?
I posted it earlier in the thread he has 19 goals and 17 assists in 4125 minutes those are top player figures, a G+A every 114.6 minutes. Sadio Mané this season has for example recorded a G+A every 109.4 minutes.
I am talking about the difference between for example leg breaks and players who get ongoing muscular injuries, people with breaks often come back after an injury of that type and are fine, yes it may take a lot longer, but they can come back and not suffer from it.
Clearly Dembele has some issue with muscular injuries, it might well be that his issues occur because of the training regime at Barca, but other than the fact that he didnt have injuries when he played for BVB three years ago when he was 20. The concern would clearly be that having been injured he will continue to get those injuries. The human body does not really repair muscular damage, with hamstring injuries potentially being one of the worst. So yes whilst his issues may be related to being at Barca it could also be that he has had severe damage to his legs. I am surprised that the Barca methods would be questioned only because he did get a decent run at one point after a long lay off, then after that he has been in and out a lot more. I do know people have said that Barca suffer badly with muscular injuries though, I havent looked for evidence of it though.
Admittedly I want our best players to play at home where possible especially if they were experiencing difficulties abroad.And you have spoken like a true French patriot wanting him to go back to ‘Lyon’ or ‘Marseille’
A player of Dembele’s caliber is just not average enough for the French league. I wouldn’t even want him to go to PSG. He needs to go play in a top top team and become one of the next superstars. Which is why Barca signed him and we might even.
Now back to your post;
1) it doesn’t matter if he won games on his own without Messi as you say (which is not true, it’s a team game and Dembele ain’t no Messi either). The number of games he must’ve helped win shouldn’t be more then a handful considering he’s been injured most of his time at Barca. And all those games or moments don’t matter anymore. Going forward he’s nothing but a liability unless he can avoid injuries for at least half a season and truly help Barca. Specially if he’s needed badly when others are injured and he’s not. Which doesn’t seem very likely at the moment. Since 2 years Barca has just been paying his wages, paying for his surgeries while watching his value depreciate immensely all the way down from 150m. Hence, he’s nothing but a liability that just keeps costing them more and more.
2) Yes I probably haven’t watched Dembele as much as you have but that doesn’t mean I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment on the current situation. And Messi doesn’t vacate the right for him. Do you hear yourself
I don’t understand why posters like you have to reply back in a tone where you assume you know it all while totally overlooking other posters views on a situation. It would do you good to consider situations from different aspects so as to broaden your perspectives.
1) No one called him Messi on this thread and he did win games while the others were struggling. Anyway it makes no sense to call a player who is as good as him a liability as if he has been completely injured and not played a minute for Barcelona. When he has been played he has made his mark so much so Barcelona are loathed to lose him without figuring what the problem is.
2) Nothing much to say here, as you have not really addressed my point. Go watch his games and you will see where he plays while Messi is still on the field not injured or needing a rest. Something that does not happen for Griezmann for instance who normally likes to drift to the right as well.
I definitely do not know it all and if I do not know something I say so but that is not the case here. Maybe it is you who needs to broaden your prospectives if you think that Dembélé would be some fourth choice player when fit, utter folly.
The playing style required of him from United is IMO going to result in more hamstring troubles than that of Barcelona.
I don’t question his talent but I don’t see him suddenly not having muscular problems and if anything see them being exacerbated by an increased demand.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one,
I don’t see Ole waving a magic wand and sorting out this kind of recurring muscular problem.
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