Ozil, China, Arsenal, PL, Hypocrisy...

LucasXXII

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If I were to visit China and go around asking people what they thought about their one-party state, the massacre in Tiananmen Square and the 1 million Uyghurs locked up in concentration camps then (a) they wouldn't know about the latter two items because the state has blocked all news about from them; and (b) I'd either be arrested on some trumped up charge or expelled from the country.
Most of them would know about both stories and a lot would probably tell you other versions. Some might have first-hand experiences and could tell you stories you wouldn't hear from the media. Some would probably get irritated though.

You should be able to ask around as long as you make sure you're not perceived as spreading rumors that are "against national stability".

Fact is China has its own version of political correctness.
 

Yakuza_devils

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I have the privilege to work and live in both middle east (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Muscat) and China (Guangzhou, Changsha, Shanghai). These are the places where western media usually paints very negative image about human rights and whatnot.

Based on my experience living there, these places are peaceful and prosperous especially in China. I have also travelled to China's 3rd tier cities and villages for work. Their living standard is good in a country of more than 1.4 billion people and only opened to the world 40 years ago. In the villages they held local election and have more freedom than what the Western media portrayed. China is big and diverse country. The speed they are growing with 1.4 billion people is unparalleled. Hence, they need to have their own unique government system. Democracy may actually slowed down their growth which could be catastrophic because 40 years ago approximately 1 billion Chinese are in poverty. Today almost all Chinese are out of poverty and many more are living prosperous life.

Many more western people are also working in these places with very high expat packages. Most of them are living very high quality life and are grateful. Some of them lost their jobs in their own country during economy downturn and extremely thankful to these countries to provide them opportunity to work and making very good living.

No doubt these places still have many issue as per article below in one of the Muslims summit:

https://www.tnp.sg/news/world/malay...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1576818815

But they are all developing and changing at different pace to the western world. All of us need to learn, experience and accept more different culture, value, moral and society in the world.
 

Sky1981

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Democracy at its purest form isnt for everyone.

The US are stalling in everything they did due to bipartisanship in the house and senate, now imagine if you have hundreds of race, several different religion, hundreds of different demographics, lack of education and misinformation its going to be a horrorshow.

I live in indonesia. Do we have democracy? Yes. But if you think it's democracy you're very wrong. Its just a legitimization of the majority ruling the minority. The muslims are always going to lead the nation, the javanese will always be the front runner to most official post, the minority will never be properly represented.

You might not believe me but the chinese has their own democracy (lead by ccp board). Xi jinping isnt coming out of thin air, the selection process to even become shortlisted is horrendous (20+ years of clean record, starts from the bottom, progressive achievements, top of your class etc). It's best when 1.4 billion people are lead with select few who knows what they're doing.
 

GlastonSpur

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Most of them would know about both stories and a lot would probably tell you other versions. Some might have first-hand experiences and could tell you stories you wouldn't hear from the media. Some would probably get irritated though.

You should be able to ask around as long as you make sure you're not perceived as spreading rumors that are "against national stability".

Fact is China has its own version of political correctness.
The massacre in Tiananmen Square and the 1 million+ Uyghurs locked up in concentration camps are not "rumours" - they are established facts that the Chinese government does its best to cover up. And since the government controls all of the internal Chinese news sources and heavily censors the internet, the people of China are largely left ignorant of the truth.

Any criticism of the one-party state is seen by the Chinese regime as against national stability, so "national stability" means whatever they say it means.

"China is setting up a vast surveillance system that tracks every single one of its 1.4 billion citizens — from using facial recognition to name and shame jaywalkers, to forcing people to download apps that can access all the photos on their smartphones.

The growth of China's surveillance technology comes as the state rolls out an enormous "social credit system" that ranks citizens based on their behaviour, and doles out rewards and punishments depending on their scores …"

https://www.businessinsider.com/how...-a-modern-surveillance-state-2018-4?r=US&IR=T
 

LucasXXII

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The massacre in Tiananmen Square and the 1 million+ Uyghurs locked up in concentration camps are not "rumours" - they are established facts that the Chinese government does its best to cover up. And since the government controls all of the internal Chinese news sources and heavily censors the internet, the people of China are largely left ignorant of the truth.

Any criticism of the one-party state is seen by the Chinese regime as against national stability, so "national stability" means whatever they say it means.

"China is setting up a vast surveillance system that tracks every single one of its 1.4 billion citizens — from using facial recognition to name and shame jaywalkers, to forcing people to download apps that can access all the photos on their smartphones.

The growth of China's surveillance technology comes as the state rolls out an enormous "social credit system" that ranks citizens based on their behaviour, and doles out rewards and punishments depending on their scores …"

https://www.businessinsider.com/how...-a-modern-surveillance-state-2018-4?r=US&IR=T
The Chinese people are not ignorant of what happened, especially not with the 1989 incident as lots of people on the scene travelled from all over the country and have been telling the story to their children and grandchildren. From my experience most have a moderate view and just refuse to admit exaggerated versions of it.

The article you quoted does a lot of dot-connecting, and tries to make it sound like all the measures they've mentioned have been enforced nation-wide when most of these are just local policies. But let's put it aside and think about just one thing: if "naming and shaming jaywalkers" does not sit well with the normal Chinese citizens, why did the local government go on with such an unnecessary measure, knowing it would lead to criticism and being sensitive and all? That's because most average Chinese people don't actually mind it. This was on the news the other day and the comments were all "if someone did that they deserve it".

The whole point all along is that the majority of the Chinese people don't mind the picture you've painted all that much. They are far more sensitive to what they perceive as potentially damaging the stability of their lives. That's right, stability is the word again. Clearly the Chinese government actually aim for the same thing as most people living there.
 

syrian_scholes

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Of China is pushing their interests. Every country does. The point is China is an authorization dictatorship and hence you don't see the violence as in the World's largest democracy wherever they demonstrate and then get shot by the police. If they can't demonstrate then no one gets shot.
The US has sanctioned any company that does business with Russia in laying down the Nord Stream 2. This has got nothing to do with the USA and is strictly a matter for the EU. At least so far the Chinese has not started to sanction companies that has got nothing to do with their own business. But maybe they would start too.
It's more hypocritical for people living in the countries that apply sanctions to business that have got nothing to do with them to comment on Chinese matters that at least has a connection with their own business.

Furthermore there is a huge difference between Syria and China. Both are authoritarian dictatorships but one tortures and kills people regularly while other is not so violent and has brought millions of people out of poverty.
I mean when the Chinese government comes out in support the Syrian government multiple times, they are indirectly contributing to those crimes, it's funny how blinded with patriotism you are, remind me of myself pre 2011.
 

syrian_scholes

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The Chinese people are not ignorant of what happened, especially not with the 1989 incident as lots of people on the scene travelled from all over the country and have been telling the story to their children and grandchildren. From my experience most have a moderate view and just refuse to admit exaggerated versions of it.

The article you quoted does a lot of dot-connecting, and tries to make it sound like all the measures they've mentioned have been enforced nation-wide when most of these are just local policies. But let's put it aside and think about just one thing: if "naming and shaming jaywalkers" does not sit well with the normal Chinese citizens, why did the local government go on with such an unnecessary measure, knowing it would lead to criticism and being sensitive and all? That's because most average Chinese people don't actually mind it. This was on the news the other day and the comments were all "if someone did that they deserve it".

The whole point all along is that the majority of the Chinese people don't mind the picture you've painted all that much. They are far more sensitive to what they perceive as potentially damaging the stability of their lives. That's right, stability is the word again. Clearly the Chinese government actually aim for the same thing as most people living there.
Imagine being okay with genocides in the name of "stability".

Edit: At the start I thought you were talking out of "patriotism", I just think you're a government troll now.
 

LucasXXII

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Imagine being okay with genocides in the name of "stability".

Edit: At the start I thought you were talking out of "patriotism", I just think you're a government troll now.
Check out "Fighting Terrorism in Xinjiang" on YouTube, a recent documentary by CGTN with tons of never-seen-before graphic footages recorded at the scene of terrorist attacks.

Bask yourself in the opposite agenda and try to make sense of what's really happening in Xinjiang (make sure you check out the comment section to see real, living Chinese people with feelings, who are allowed to acces YouTube, talking).

Hint: it's probably somewhere in between the extremes.
 

syrian_scholes

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Check out "Fighting Terrorism in Xinjiang" on YouTube, a recent documentary by CGTN with tons of never-seen-before graphic footages recorded at the scene of terrorist attacks.

Bask yourself in the opposite agenda and try to make sense of what's really happening in Xinjiang (make sure you check out the comment section to see real, living Chinese people with feelings, who are allowed to acces YouTube, talking).

Hint: it's probably somewhere in between the extremes.
Yes I'll make sure to check a Chinese channel, definitely no bias there.
 

Godfather

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1) He’s right.

2) It’s slightly hypocritical. You don’t get to pick and chose which human rights abuses you speak out about. The Erdogan saga was a mess.

3) Clubs will always want to stay out of political minefields like this one especially when it involves major markets like China. Their response doesn’t surprise me one iota.
It's not "slightly" hypocritical. He's a massive hyocrite for what he said while being an Erdogan supporter
 

adexkola

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Wow the CCP’s propaganda budget must be huge...the 50cents army found its way into football forums!?

Very typical of these 50cents army or wumaos to engage in whataboutism or in general misdirect The focus of any discussions away from discussing atrocities committed by the CCP to some other somewhat related topics.

Back on topic, Ozil has every right to talk about the Uyghurs, hypocrite or not. Just because the British Empire committed atrocities in India, the Brits are not allowed to denounce Hitler’s Germany or Stalin? Just because Rooney once dived for a penalty and you did not condemned him, does that mean you should not condemn Rivaldo’s acting or Neymar rolling around in the World Cups? These are laughable logics
 

GlastonSpur

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… Clearly the Chinese government actually aim for the same thing as most people living there.
The Chinese government wants power and control over the lives of every Chinese citizen to the most extraordinary degree.

They want to control what people think, do, feel and have knowledge of. If they could forcibly implant monitoring chips under the skins of every woman, man and child, they would do so … and pretty soon they probably will.

All in the name of your famous "social stability" of course.

Your one-party state propaganda sickens me ... you should be ashamed.
 

LucasXXII

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Yes I'll make sure to check a Chinese channel, definitely no bias there.
Did I say there's no bias there? No shit there's bias, it's from a state media. Problem is there's two extreme versions of the story that paint only one side in good light respectively, and common sense would tell you there would be some degree of truth in both stories. But you just choose to ignore one side of the story altogether.

Well actually, you may well have been prohibited from seeing it as the comments about YouTube trying to delete the video would indicate. Censoring contents, sounds familiar eh?

The Chinese government wants power and control over the lives of every Chinese citizen to the most extraordinary degree.

They want to control what people think, do, feel and have knowledge of. If they could forcibly implant monitoring chips under the skins of every woman, man and child, they would do so … and pretty soon they probably will.

All in the name of your famous "social stability" of course.

Your one-party state propaganda sickens me ... you should be ashamed.
Get a grip. You've probably never lived in China yet feel entitled to dictate the way Chinese people should live and think. This attitude is a huge reason why there's a widespread anti-west sentiment in the country (which I don't subscribe to at all but can understand to some degree seeing what I'm dealing with right now).
 

syrian_scholes

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Did I say there's no bias there? No shit there's bias, it's from a state media. Problem is there's two extreme versions of the story that paint only one side in good light respectively, and common sense would tell you there would be some degree of truth in both stories. But you just choose to ignore one side of the story altogether.

Well actually, you may well have been prohibited from seeing it as the comments about YouTube trying to delete the video would indicate. Censoring contents, sounds familiar eh?



Get a grip. You've probably never lived in China yet feel entitled to dictate the way Chinese people should live and think. This attitude is a huge reason why there's a widespread anti-west sentiment in the country (which I don't subscribe to at all but can understand to some degree seeing what I'm dealing with right now).
So you understand anti-west sentiment in China because "you are dealing" with some people who are against the Chinese government? And you have the balls to tell someone else to get a grip after that? :lol:

As I said before I understand because I know what you feel, I was the same pre 2011, I even reported someone on the caf for saying feck Bashar Al Assad or something like that before the Syrian revolution, I was like he is a great leader and we are a great country! How dare they, but once you liberate your mind from the hands of the tyrant you'll see the whole world differently, you've been fed pro-government propaganda all your life, it's something instilled in your character that you'll either break out of eventually or die fighting for.

Either that or you're a government troll, good luck with your life because obviously you're still blinded atm, I hope your country find its way and you break free.
 

LucasXXII

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So you understand anti-west sentiment in China because "you are dealing" with some people who are against the Chinese government? And you have the balls to tell someone else to get a grip after that? :lol:

As I said before I understand because I know what you feel, I was the same pre 2011, I even reported someone on the caf for saying feck Bashar Al Assad or something like that before the Syrian revolution, I was like he is a great leader and we are a great country! How dare they, but once you liberate your mind from the hands of the tyrant you'll see the whole world differently, you've been fed pro-government propaganda all your life, it's something instilled in your character that you'll either break out of eventually or die fighting for.

Either that or you're a government troll, good luck with your life because obviously you're still blinded atm, I hope your country find its way and you break free.
I tell him to get a grip because I don't agree with his view (way too extreme and based on tons of false perceptions). Does that mean I don't understand why he feels so?

You present a narrative and act like it's a universal one and applies to all countries. If that's not narrow-mindedness and a cold-war mentality, I don't know what it is.

Why is it so difficult to accept that different parts of the world have different cultures, and a single family of values and systems cannot work everywhere? The Chinese people historically have a connection to their native soil, and a mindset of "it's none of the outsiders' business". The behavorial pattern of their current government is a mirror image of that. I don't even agree with all or most of the traditional Chinese value (I actually feel people were way too sensitive and calling for the officials to ban him accomplishes nothing), but to desperately try to project their own values onto other countries feeds nicely into the negative western stereotype from a Chinese point of view.

I really wonder how many people posting here on countries they have never even been? The middle East and especially Iraq was a prosperous and a beautiful country with high standards of living and lot of free support for the people. The same with Libya.
Yes both countries had brutal dictators who if you tried to get involved in politics would end up most probably dead. But ask the people or majority of the people what they would rather have, the chaos and destruction of their country or a safe and secure life, they would chose the safe and secure life.
It's the same in China too. Most Chinese want a safe and secure life compared to chaos and destruction.
I feel like I should quote this post again as it paints a fair and moderate picture of what's happening in China that corresponds with the reality.

On the topic at hand, again, if I'm not making it clear already, the Ozil incident stemmed from the Internet and people were calling for the officials to ban him and Arsenal. Why is it so hard to understand that the Chinese people intrinsically think differently and react to things differently to westerners?
 

GlastonSpur

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…. Get a grip. You've probably never lived in China yet feel entitled to dictate the way Chinese people should live and think. This attitude is a huge reason why there's a widespread anti-west sentiment in the country (which I don't subscribe to at all but can understand to some degree seeing what I'm dealing with right now).
Sunshine, it's the Chinese government that feels "entitled to dictate the way Chinese people should live and think".

I'm simply pointing to this fact and the wide variety of mechanisms employed to achieve their ends - ranging from concentration camps, massive internet censorship, large numbers of people executed, state control of all news media, whipping up populist sentiment etc. etc. etc.

You apparently wish to deny that all this exists and want us to believe in some fantasy world in which the people of China - given the option - wouldn't want freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and wouldn't want to be able to remove from power, if they chose, those ruling over them.
 

LucasXXII

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Sunshine, it's the Chinese government that feels "entitled to dictate the way Chinese people should live and think".

I'm simply pointing to this fact and the wide variety of mechanisms employed to achieve their ends - ranging from concentration camps, massive internet censorship, large numbers of people executed, state control of all news media, whipping up populist sentiment etc. etc. etc.

You apparently wish to deny that all this exists and want us to believe in some fantasy world in which the people of China - given the option - wouldn't want freedom of choice, freedom of expression, freedom of speech and wouldn't want to be able to remove from power, if they chose, those ruling over them.
Dude, most Chinese people never have asked for freedom of speech to such a degree that they are free to denounce the country's regime, that's what I'm saying. Chinese people are "low maintenance" in this regard.

And if all of these comes at the risk of stability and changing their current way of life (which would be true if it happens, all of these will never be "given" with nothing else being changed), then it's a big fat NO from them.

"Ruling over them"? Most actually like how the government gets things done swiftly which has allowed the living standard to improve at such a staggering rate.
 
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Seaman

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I dont think you can have democracy in a country over 1 billion people. i admire the Chinese for telling the West to get lost and dont tell us how to run our country. With so many people you need strong rules and grave consequences for society to function.
 

Sad Chris

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Wiki says:

"Amnesty International notes that China has "the largest recorded number of imprisoned journalists and cyber-dissidents in the world"and Paris-based Reporters Without Borders stated in 2010 and 2012 that "China is the world's biggest prison for netizens." Commonly alleged user offenses include communicating with groups abroad, signing online petitions, and calling for government reform. The government has escalated its efforts to neutralize coverage and commentary that is critical of the regime after a series of large anti-pollution and anti-corruption protests. Many of these protests as well as ethnic riots were organized or publicized using instant messaging services, chat rooms, and text messages. China's internet police force was reported by state media to be 2 million strong in 2013."

So, a 2 million strong internet police force and world's biggest prison for netizens … but you say "basically anybody who wants to use Google, YouTube, Instagram and co has no problems whatsoever."

Yeah, right ... and pigs can fly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China
You can choose to believe what you like, I don’t care. I’m just telling you what it is like in a southern Chinese city with a population of 8m. I live and work here and have a mixed scope of friends and colleagues from struggling to wealthy, Chinese and foreign alike.
 

mu4c_20le

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You can choose to believe what you like, I don’t care. I’m just telling you what it is like in a southern Chinese city with a population of 8m. I live and work here and have a mixed scope of friends and colleagues from struggling to wealthy, Chinese and foreign alike.
That won't change his mind, because he has the power of the internet and wikipedia to provide him with extensive knowledge. feck people who actually live there.
 

Sad Chris

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That won't change his mind, because he has the power of the internet and wikipedia to provide him with extensive knowledge. feck people who actually live there.
Seems to be the fashionable thing to do, no point participating any further. I’ve been uncovered as a shill, so will need to create a brand new account and work my way through the newbies again...
 

Siorac

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Says the man who had a dictator as his best man at his wedding but sure thing Mesut, you care about everyone.
Doesn't mean he's wrong though, even if his love affair with Erdogan does admittedly stink of hypocrisy.
 

Buchan

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He is right on this one, though: this isn’t politics and sporting organisations trying to swerve uncomfortable issues for them because they are financially compromised and in league with oppressors and do so using the ‘politics’ excuse really stink.

We are all equal, but as the saying goes, some are more equal than others, sadly. Ozil, and many before him, are finding this out to their own cost and detriment.

It really does stink to the high heavens, this kow-towing to wealthy oppressors, sports-washing claptrap. Practically every high-level sport is tainted nowadays. It’s a disgrace.
 

UncleBob

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I have the privilege to work and live in both middle east (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Muscat) and China (Guangzhou, Changsha, Shanghai). These are the places where western media usually paints very negative image about human rights and whatnot.

Based on my experience living there, these places are peaceful and prosperous especially in China. I have also travelled to China's 3rd tier cities and villages for work. Their living standard is good in a country of more than 1.4 billion people and only opened to the world 40 years ago. In the villages they held local election and have more freedom than what the Western media portrayed. China is big and diverse country. The speed they are growing with 1.4 billion people is unparalleled. Hence, they need to have their own unique government system. Democracy may actually slowed down their growth which could be catastrophic because 40 years ago approximately 1 billion Chinese are in poverty. Today almost all Chinese are out of poverty and many more are living prosperous life.

Many more western people are also working in these places with very high expat packages. Most of them are living very high quality life and are grateful. Some of them lost their jobs in their own country during economy downturn and extremely thankful to these countries to provide them opportunity to work and making very good living.

No doubt these places still have many issue as per article below in one of the Muslims summit:

https://www.tnp.sg/news/world/malay...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1576818815

But they are all developing and changing at different pace to the western world. All of us need to learn, experience and accept more different culture, value, moral and society in the world.
:lol:
 

DWelbz19

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I have the privilege to work and live in both middle east (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Doha, Muscat) and China (Guangzhou, Changsha, Shanghai). These are the places where western media usually paints very negative image about human rights and whatnot.

Based on my experience living there, these places are peaceful and prosperous especially in China. I have also travelled to China's 3rd tier cities and villages for work. Their living standard is good in a country of more than 1.4 billion people and only opened to the world 40 years ago. In the villages they held local election and have more freedom than what the Western media portrayed. China is big and diverse country. The speed they are growing with 1.4 billion people is unparalleled. Hence, they need to have their own unique government system. Democracy may actually slowed down their growth which could be catastrophic because 40 years ago approximately 1 billion Chinese are in poverty. Today almost all Chinese are out of poverty and many more are living prosperous life.

Many more western people are also working in these places with very high expat packages. Most of them are living very high quality life and are grateful. Some of them lost their jobs in their own country during economy downturn and extremely thankful to these countries to provide them opportunity to work and making very good living.

No doubt these places still have many issue as per article below in one of the Muslims summit:

https://www.tnp.sg/news/world/malay...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1576818815

But they are all developing and changing at different pace to the western world. All of us need to learn, experience and accept more different culture, value, moral and society in the world.
Western media rotten China good
 

Adisa

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The fact he is friends with a cnut in Erdogan doesn't diminish his point.
 

WeePat

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The content published is Özil’s personal opinion. As a football club, Arsenal has always adhered to the principle of not involving itself in politics.
The above was the statement Arsenal released in the aftermath of Ozil's tweet about the Uyghurs. Say what you will about Ozil, but he's right about Arsenal's hypocrisy.
 

UncleBob

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The fact he is friends with a cnut in Erdogan doesn't diminish his point.
Ofcourse it does, there's no reason to take him seriously. Why the feck should anyone listen to someone like Ozil or Guardiola about human rights when the extent of it reaches no further than their own personal interests.
 

Hansinity

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This guy is the biggest hypocrite I know. It was absolutely cringe when he presented himself as a victim of racism. This guy doesn't even know what racism is , let alone make 2 proper sentences on his own. The fact that he ignored Löw ( he went to Arsenals training place to talk to Özil ), some of the nicest people in german football and who ALWAYS suported Özil basically proves that he just can't explain himself. They never had issues, more the opposite and he completely ignored Löw. Tells a lot about his personality.

It is a shame since he has such talent, but his people around him and he himself kinda destroyed his own legacy.