Ozil, China, Arsenal, PL, Hypocrisy...

[Sultan]

You really don't have to speak about every injustice in the world. The list would be never-ending. Every little counts.

Good on Ozil to speak up!

 

[Sky1981]

Can you please document this / drop a link to where you have this from? I'm genuinely interested, and have read nothing of this at all on the matter. Can't google my way to it neither. Doesn't seem like it's only the US media being sceptical neither.

At the UN, the following countries have condemned the camp: Albania, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, United Kingdom, and United States. Link here from human rights watch. Not like nobody raises an issue really.

Edit: I know see the "documentation" of the 54 countries is from countries of the likes of Pakistan, the Russian Federation, Egypt, Bolivia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Serbia. Not exactly great countries in setting an example on human rights, none of them are they?

The condemned camp are similar to the coalition of the willing against iraq, lead by the US who has a beef with china.

I'm not saying that there are no internement camp, there are rehabilitation camp. Just like any other camp there are disciplinary measures being employed. Ughyurs isnt isolated like guantanamo bay, It's not hard for CIA to collect more concrete evidence if there are such an atrocities going on.

Plus this is not the first time the US created this to stir the narratives, they've done it with Benny Wenda an indonesian separatives (UK harbors him exactly) creating a false and unproven naratives of Indonesian killing millions of papuans. But because it's papuan nobody bats an eyelid.

 

[Sky1981]

I love it when people from countries who do evil things try to argue that they haven't done evil things. Whether it's China, Saudi, the US or anywhere else - it's inarguable but guys like @Sky1981 are still on here trying to argue that white is black and the sky isn't blue.

China are bullies and little else, and I'll say that as someone who's lived in Asia and spent a lot of time in China.

To pull todays match from the broadcast is the actions of a bully saying "don't look into what I'm doing or I'll hurt you". If they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't pull the match, simple as.

Problem is the western media are so biased and fabricated it's fake news. I'm not arguing black or white. I'm asking why they're reporting yellow as black, and black as yellow.

You really believe china is killing millions of ughyus? Harvesting organs? Systematic torture camp? A gestapo like politburo who abducts dissenters? In the 2020?

There are recently a reddit ask me session where a woman who claimed she's an ughyur camp escapee is taking answers. Turns out she's lying, she actually has a linkedin account and worked with the US government. Such blatant attempt to fabricate hoax and they're not even being secretive about it.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Problem is the western media are so biased and fabricated it's fake news. I'm not arguing black or white. I'm asking why they're reporting yellow as black, and black as yellow.

You really believe china is killing millions of ughyus? Harvesting organs? Systematic torture camp? A gestapo like politburo who abducts dissenters? In the 2020?

There are recently a reddit ask me session where a woman who claimed she's an ughyur camp escapee is taking answers. Turns out she's lying, she actually has a linkedin account and worked with the US government. Such blatant attempt to fabricate hoax and they're not even being secretive about it.

Christ I did not realize China's global cyber campaigns extended to football forums.

You are functionally acting as a holocaust denier. I cannot believe that anyone at this point is in good faith trying to argue that China does not commit atrocities on a day to day basis, so I'll just assume you're either a Chinese expat who still has blinders on about Whinnie the Pooh and their whole power structure or a malicious actor on their payroll.

 

[Zlatattack]

I'm British Pakistani and I am a supporter of the current PTI government in Pakistan but I don't believe them for a second when they say everything is OK in East Turkmenistan. The Chinese are clearly commiting gross human rights violations and plenty will turn a blind eye because of the money involved.

Good on Ozil for speaking up.

 

[diarm]

Problem is the western media are so biased and fabricated it's fake news. I'm not arguing black or white. I'm asking why they're reporting yellow as black, and black as yellow.

You really believe china is killing millions of ughyus? Harvesting organs? Systematic torture camp? A gestapo like politburo who abducts dissenters? In the 2020?

There are recently a reddit ask me session where a woman who claimed she's an ughyur camp escapee is taking answers. Turns out she's lying, she actually has a linkedin account and worked with the US government. Such blatant attempt to fabricate hoax and they're not even being secretive about it.

I don't give a shit about Western Media. I've spent good time in China and seen with my own eyes what goes on.

You're and apologiser and an enabler of what goes on and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Sky1981]

Christ I did not realize China's global cyber campaigns extended to football forums.

You are functionally acting as a holocaust denier. I cannot believe that anyone at this point is in good faith trying to argue that China does not commit atrocities on a day to day basis, so I'll just assume you're either a Chinese expat who still has blinders on about Whinnie the Pooh and their whole power structure or a malicious actor on their payroll.

Your country is having trade deals with holocaust host.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dip...tain-trade-deal-secured-despite-uks-hong-kong

 

[Redplane]

Özil doing a Kaepernick.
No surprise here. He is championship level and needs other approaches to generate attention. He can‘t do it on the pitch anymore. He is desperate to stay relevant.

How are those two situations even remotely comparable?

 

[NewGlory]

Funny how he doesn't talk about his boy Erdogan killing Kurds though.

This 100%

What China is doing could well be a genocide, and Arsenal obviously only cares about money, but Ozil is hypocrite

 

[NewGlory]

True. He is a hypocrite. Do we ignore his call for attention to the Uighurs because he's a hypocrite?

No. But we call him out on it, and also - who needs to hear about it from Ozil? I feel sorry if anybody really first heard about it only because Ozil talked about it

I cant take someone serious who only cares about his own religion and nation, but support or empathy disappears as soon as it is the other way around. In Özil's case, he is basically lying in bed with Erdogan and thus supporting a dictator and murderer heavily

Spot on. I feel the same when Christians etc. only have "empathy" for their own and feel free to not give a damn about "others". That is not empathy, that is ugliest form of tribalism

 

[#00F]

I always wondered - how much of British colonial history is taught in schools? I mean we all love to shit on China, but I think the western civilization have done far worse.

 

[Ban]

Funny a friend of Erdogan has the cheek to speak about injustice and the sort.

 

[ROFLUTION]

The condemned camp are similar to the coalition of the willing against iraq, lead by the US who has a beef with china.

I'm not saying that there are no internement camp, there are rehabilitation camp. Just like any other camp there are disciplinary measures being employed. Ughyurs isnt isolated like guantanamo bay, It's not hard for CIA to collect more concrete evidence if there are such an atrocities going on.

Plus this is not the first time the US created this to stir the narratives, they've done it with Benny Wenda an indonesian separatives (UK harbors him exactly) creating a false and unproven naratives of Indonesian killing millions of papuans. But because it's papuan nobody bats an eyelid.

But a rehabilitation camp for about 1 million? That's still a sick measure to emprison 1 million people from one religious group because some religious people did a terrorist attack. Imagine if we emprisoned 1 million christian norwegians because Breivik did terror. (I know it was one christian extremist's doing, but its just to come up with a close to similar example). Neither do I think the Guantanamo bay was OK.

Or what is your estimate of how many are in the camp?

 

[mu4c_20le]

I don't give a shit about Western Media. I've spent good time in China and seen with my own eyes what goes on.

You're and apologiser and an enabler of what goes on and you should be ashamed of yourself.

What goes on? Are people's organs really being harvested on a scale of soylent green proportions?

 

[Sky1981]

But a rehabilitation camp for about 1 million? That's still a sick measure to emprison 1 million people from one religious group because some religious people did a terrorist attack. Imagine if we emprisoned 1 million christian norwegians because Breivik did terror. (I know it was one christian extremist's doing, but its just to come up with a close to similar example). Neither do I think the Guantanamo bay was OK.

Or what is your estimate of how many are in the camp?

Ughyur population is around 8.5M, Xinjiang clocks around 11M. I don't know how people come up with millions, I simply don't think it's possible to detain 1 million people and be totally secretive about it. That's like the whole population of inmates in State prison in America rolled into 1.

I'm not saying who you should trust, but do your own thinking, what would be the motives of china killing millions of her own citizens, the Chinese had never had any problems with Muslims, development are being done in Ughyurs with school, hospitals, transportation. They are terrorist movement, acknowledged by the UN, there won't be any issue if they literally send out military to squash terrorist pockets, why bother with detainment camp?

Organ harvesting? If it's so blatant that thousands of detainees being killed for organs, those organs would have reached the black market and there'll be news and more proof of it happening. Why would they do that? Financial gain? They're spending millions to build a detention camp so that they can get some money selling organs?

Ask yourself. Why?

 

[Superden]

Ughyur population is around 8.5M, Xinjiang clocks around 11M. I don't know how people come up with millions, I simply don't think it's possible to detain 1 million people and be totally secretive about it. That's like the whole population of inmates in State prison in America rolled into 1.

I'm not saying who you should trust, but do your own thinking, what would be the motives of china killing millions of her own citizens, the Chinese had never had any problems with Muslims, development are being done in Ughyurs with school, hospitals, transportation. They are terrorist movement, acknowledged by the UN, there won't be any issue if they literally send out military to squash terrorist pockets, why bother with detainment camp?

Organ harvesting? If it's so blatant that thousands of detainees being killed for organs, those organs would have reached the black market and there'll be news and more proof of it happening. Why would they do that? Financial gain? They're spending millions to build a detention camp so that they can get some money selling organs?

Ask yourself. Why?

It's not secret though is it? Theres plenty of corroborating video evidence as well as eye witness testimonies. The recent leaks of the blueprints for the 're education's process made harrowing reading.

Answer this please @Sky1981 would we be able to have this conversation on a chinese forum?

The chinese response says enough, to most decent minded people.

 

[Sky1981]

It's not secret though is it? Theres plenty of corroborating video evidence as well as eye witness testimonies. The recent leaks of the blueprints for the 're education's process made harrowing reading.

Answer this please @Sky1981 would we be able to have this conversation on a chinese forum?

The chinese response says enough, to most decent minded people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...a-chinese-detention-centre-annotated-document

Officials appear to have known from the start how controversial the campaign would be and have always publicly insisted that the re-education internment camps are “vocational training camps”. That Orwellian language is used even in internal documents like this, which talk about education, classrooms, dormitories and “students”.

Seems normal, prison = rehabilitation camp, guantanamo bay official name is just a holding camp

Strictly manage door locks and keys – dormitory doors, corridor doors and floor doors must be double-locked, and must be locked immediately after being opened and closed. Strictly manage and control student activities to prevent escapes during class, eating periods, toilet breaks, bath time, medical treatment, family visits etc. Strictly manage students requesting time off, if they really need to leave the training centre due to illness or other special circumstances, they must have someone specially accompany, monitor and control them.

This is normal, this rehabilitation program is intended to deradicalised those suspected to be terrorist, there are locks, there are periods, there are measures to make sure you don't escape, there are measures for discpline

Students are not allowed to participate in labour outside class, and may not contact the outside world apart from during prescribed activities. It is strictly forbidden for the students to have their own cellphones or for staff to hand over cellphones to students, so as to prevent the staff from interacting with students and collusion between inside and outside.

There must be full video surveillance coverage of dormitories and classrooms free of blind spots, ensuring that guards on duty can monitor in real time, record things in detail, and report suspicious circumstances immediately.

Again, normal. It's not so hard to imagine you can't have phones in prison. Infact there must be video surveillance, it's not like they give a blind spot for torture and black stuff.

For training centres with more than one thousand people, special personnel must be stationed to do food safety testing, sanitation and epidemic prevention work.

So training centers capacity are only 1000+, wonder where the guardian got 1 million figures from

Adhere to the daily concentrated study of the national language (Mandarin), law, and skills, make remedial Mandarin studies the top priority, and ensure time, content, and quality.

The Ughyurs are chinese nationality, it make sense if they're taught in Mandarin, how can you earn a living in China if you can't speak the language. Forget citizens, even imigrants are forced to learn English in most western countries

Efforts should be made to solve the problem of an insufficient number of classrooms, speed up the construction and renovation of classrooms, and ensure that students attend class every day.

Nothing wrong with this, they dont overcramp

Actively organise and concentrate on activities such as presentations, form a healthy and inspirational atmosphere, promote the repentance and confession of the students for them to understand deeply the illegal, criminal and dangerous nature of their past behaviour.

Again, it is a rehabilitation camp, isn't it? They're expected to realise that they're wrong

Through letter-writing, phonecalls, video chats, visits, meetings, meals, etc, establish a mechanism for students and relatives to interact with each other, to ensure that the students will have a phone conversation with their relatives at least once a week, and meet via video at least once a month, to make their family feel at ease and the students feel safe.

So they can make video calls, have phone calls with their relatives? I thought they're being tortured and murdered and harvested for organs?

B

ehaviour management. The trainee’s study, life, and activity management system should be formulated in detail, and the students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed. Strengthen the student’s daily life behaviour norms, and implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, rollcall, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth.

Discpline, something most military employs, hardly weird stuff in prison.

Establish assessment evaluation and point management systems, and break down scores and manage and assess individually the students’ ideological transformation, study and training, and compliance with discipline. Maintain monthly assessments, and calculate monthly and annual total scores, and record it in the student’s school files. Take the student’s score as the basic basis for measuring the effectiveness of education and training, and link it directly to rewards, punishments, and family visits. Implement level management and differentiate treatment according to the score, and encourage students to obey management, earnestly study, and truly transform.

So they're analyzed, scored, and measured. IF they don't perform they get discplinary no visit. How is that different from the US prison?

The above are excerpts from guardian, the quoted part is as translated from the source, but the naratives is clearly against china. All of the above wouldn't even be out of line even in juvenile, let alone a terrorist reeducation centre

 

[Superden]

Really @Sky1981 you read that and see some kind of manual for a holistic empowerment retreat.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Really @Sky1981 you read that and see some kind of manual for a holistic empowerment retreat.

He does sound like an apologist for a totalitarian regime

 

[Sky1981]

He does sound like an apologist for a totalitarian regime

Time will tell, time will tell

 

[ROFLUTION]

Ughyur population is around 8.5M, Xinjiang clocks around 11M. I don't know how people come up with millions, I simply don't think it's possible to detain 1 million people and be totally secretive about it. That's like the whole population of inmates in State prison in America rolled into 1.

I'm not saying who you should trust, but do your own thinking, what would be the motives of china killing millions of her own citizens, the Chinese had never had any problems with Muslims, development are being done in Ughyurs with school, hospitals, transportation. They are terrorist movement, acknowledged by the UN, there won't be any issue if they literally send out military to squash terrorist pockets, why bother with detainment camp?

Organ harvesting? If it's so blatant that thousands of detainees being killed for organs, those organs would have reached the black market and there'll be news and more proof of it happening. Why would they do that? Financial gain? They're spending millions to build a detention camp so that they can get some money selling organs?

Ask yourself. Why?

No offence, but you're the only one bringing up organ-harvesting. I don't think a lot of people on here even believe that to be happening. The most of us are simply saying there are camps, and that it's a weird thing to have camps to "rehabilitate" a big ethnic and religious group. Imagine if that happened to you, because a group of christians, or even atheists did a terror attack and you got singled out for the same reason and send through "rehabilitation" only being allowed to be in a certain area and followed closely by the authorities. It's hard to really know the scale - and I've only seen satellite photos (if they're not fabricated) of about 12 baracks each around a 100m long, so yeah it's probably not 1 million people, but it doesn't have to be 1 million people to still be a terrible thing to human-wise

 

[adexkola]

How is that different from the US prison?

I'll tell you this right now... If they banned a PL game in the states because Torreira protested inhumane conditions at ADX Florence, I'd lose my shit, and it wouldn't be at Torreira or Arsenal

 

[ROFLUTION]

I'll tell you this right now... If they banned a PL game in the states because Torreira protested inhumane conditions at ADX Florence, I'd lose my shit, and it wouldn't be at Torreira or Arsenal

The measures they go to, to just shut down critique over a football game is incredible really Just a week ago, there was a huge case in Danish news about China secretly threatening a Faroe Islands government member with Faroe Island not getting acces to a trade-agreement with China if they did not choose Huawei for their 5G network.

China has already bought a ton of influence, by buying up a lot of minerals in Africa, so in reality they can threat with stopping certain supplies. Also bought harbours around the world. Imagine if they got their hands on our internet, and used that to both threaten governments, but also wire-tap the western world for scandals, ideas and political use. I know the US is already looking us over our shoulders, but China would be way worse.

 

[Ether]

Arsenal can't get upset with Ozil when they have Visit Rwanda plastered all over the place. That's the real double standard here.

 

[LucasXXII]

If we put aside all the debates over what's right or even what has really happened, purely speaking in cultural terms, the reality is that separatists are persona non grata from a Chinese point of view just like racists are in the mainstream western world.

Just today we had posters (mostly outside Italy) lambasting Italian newspapers for what they perceive as subtle (or not-so-subtle?) racism. Leaving aside the subjectives, what's objective is that people from UK/US are just far more sensitive to the issue of racism in comparison. In a similar way, Chinese people get triggered whenever they see someone send a message that could be perceived as supporting separatist movements. Take a look at the history of China and UK/US respectively and it's not hard to see why their perspectives are what they are and why they differ so much. Like, how can you expect the average Chinese who have never met more than a handful of foreign people in their lives to have an opinion on racial discrimination? Similarly, how can you expect people from UK/US to understand the Chinese sentiments on national unity when their countries have never been semi-colonized in modern times?

It is what it is.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Tweet

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[Johan07]

I have posted a lot in the Glazers/Saudi threads why I will never think its OK for United being owned by the House of Saud.
That said: I am starting to think that being owned by the Chinese (all their corporations are affiliated with the state) would be worse, which says a fecking lot.
Because this is turning in to a pattern now all over the world.
What happened with the Houston Rockets/NBA/China mirrors what is happening now with Ozil taking his stand. The former situation was worse since NBA bent the knee for China and took it up the..... Arsenal did not. They just chickened out.
People should stop and consider what would happen if the Chinese actually owned a club like United.
I fiercely reject the Arab states sportswashing, but at least they have not (yet) tried to use their ownerships of clubs like PSG and City to suppress freedom of speech. On the contrary, they seem to have been very aware of that they should not. Outside their own oppressed countries of course.
That does not seem to be the case with the Chinese. At all. Its completely disturbing what is happening and the PL should take a very strict stand before they sign up for the nxt TV-rights deal with Chinese broadcasters.
Cancelling national broadcasts of games because someone is using their rights to freedom of speech is despicable. I am seriously bothered that this is not being taken more serious, because its just the beginning.

 

[DoomSlayer]

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Tough choice for some people here, Trump or China?

 

[awop]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ut-ozil-telling-arsenal-player-wrong-condemn/

Toure, who has just finished a brief stint playing in China, said: “Footballers have to stay with football and politicians to politics because you cannot be involved with this kind of things because it’s going to attract a lot of problems and a lot of things.

“As a Muslim, it is complicated and it is his choice. He’s been doing his comments but I think he was wrong to say that.”

Yaya is going to get himself some serious birthday cake with his Chinese money

 

[Foxbatt]

Poor Ozil. Supported by Pompeo. I am sure he wishes he gets supported by someone with a bit more credibility.

 

[Devil_forever]

Long story short:

1. Ozil criticizes China for how they treat majority Muslim Uighurs, and other Muslims for not speaking out more

2. Chinese social media farms engage Ozil on Twitter

3. Arsenal wade in to confirm that Ozil's comments are his alone and they remain cool with China ('s money).

For those not in the know, a General Manager in the NBA got into hot water over comments made in support of Hong Kong. The NBA has a huge presence in China, and ultimately the league was forced to apologize and try and smooth things out.

What is the possibility of this occurring more frequent? Will the PL muzzle it's players when it comes to sensitive issues potentially impacting money flow? Should it? I mean, what's China gonna do, boycott the PL and watch it's league instead?

Go!

The same Ozil that had Erdogan as his best man at his wedding? He only gives a feck when it concerns Muslims and has been an ardent supporter of Erdogan who has enforced suppression on others, now China is giving him a taste of what that’s like. Get fecked Mesut, a moral crusader you are not.

 

[adexkola]

The same Ozil that had Erdogan as his best man at his wedding? He only gives a feck when it concerns Muslims and has been an ardent supporter of Erdogan who has enforced suppression on others, now China is giving him a taste of what that’s like. Get fecked Mesut, a moral crusader you are not.

What the hell is wrong with ye whataboutism pedants?

So if you're a hypocrite you need to shut the feck up about injustice anywhere? Is that the overall lesson of this thread?

So players that wear shirts that have gambling sponsors can't talk about injustice anywhere because they don't speak about the impact of gambling on society? City players (especially Sterling) need to shut the feck up about anything because of Qatar?

 

[Bojan11]

Removed from PES in China.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I guess this what happens when you invite China round your house for tea.

 

[awop]

The same Ozil that had Erdogan as his best man at his wedding? He only gives a feck when it concerns Muslims and has been an ardent supporter of Erdogan who has enforced suppression on others, now China is giving him a taste of what that’s like. Get fecked Mesut, a moral crusader you are not.

Found my nominee for dumbest post of the year.

 

[Grinner]

I'd rather he protest by writing on a t-shirt to be revealed when he scores a goal. Might make the lazy cnut a bit more productive.

 

[Acrobat7]

I'd rather he protest by writing on a t-shirt to be revealed when he scores a goal. Might make the lazy cnut a bit more productive.

I am pretty sure he wants his message to be seen though

 

[GlastonSpur]

… In a similar way, Chinese people get triggered whenever they see someone send a message that could be perceived as supporting separatist movements. …

Get triggered?

We're talking about a people who live in an entirely censored world, who almost never get to see other views and perspectives, and who live almost entirely on a diet of state-fed propaganda.

The Chinese government blocks website content and monitors individuals' internet access.

As required by the Chinese government, major internet platforms and messaging services in China established elaborate self-censorship mechanisms. Some have hired teams of thousands to police content and invested in powerful AI algorithms.

Many controversial events are prohibited from news coverage, preventing many Chinese citizens from knowing of their government's actions. Such measures inspired the policy's nickname, "The Great Firewall of China."

 

[Cloud7]

Poor Ozil. Supported by Pompeo. I am sure he wishes he gets supported by someone with a bit more credibility.

Wenger has given him some support, more or less.

 

[Cloud7]

The same Ozil that had Erdogan as his best man at his wedding? He only gives a feck when it concerns Muslims and has been an ardent supporter of Erdogan who has enforced suppression on others, now China is giving him a taste of what that’s like. Get fecked Mesut, a moral crusader you are not.

“Giving him a taste of what it’s like?”

Fecking hell, what hole do you people crawl out from?