P&G Draft- R1: harms vs Moby

[Moby]

As an aside- I really rate Henry but am fed up on him being shunted outwide.

If, despite repeated explanations, it is not understood that he will not spend the entire game out wide then what is point of having any instructions in here?

They have literally been instructed to constantly roam ahead of goal, never stay at one channel of the pitch, always attack the weakest link in defense, always run into space and pick the most direct straightforward route to goal. If Salah, Firmino and Mane can play like that, why can't these three? It's literally how the Madrid attack operates as well with Cristiano probing across the frontline as a predator. Combining that with the strategy of playing on quick transitions and fast breaks, I can't understand why it cannot be visualised that they will be at home in terms of attacking the opposition all across the board. It's the first thing that comes to mind when I think of any Ronaldo performance from the Serie A.

Just completely going against any evidence here.

 

[harms]

And the tagging voter games begin. Everything's fair, eh?

ffs, you said that everyone rates your midfielders ahead of my midfielders and I'm quoting the opinions that don't go well with your opinion and now it's a "tagging war".

 

[Moby]

ffs, you said that everyone rates your midfielders ahead of my midfielders and I'm quoting the opinions that don't go well with your opinion and now it's a "tagging war".

Could have posted that without the tag.

 

[harms]

@harms - Would like more clarification on your off-the ball phase strategy.

Not sure if I can add anything to what I've already said.

Off the ball it will be

Rensenbrink-Pele-Law
Lerby-Effenberg-Beckham
Evra-Vidic-Vasovic-Neville

Like I said in the OP, Brazil's set up is the main inspiration — so Beckham will drop into midfield a la Zagallo (and like he himself did), with Lerby being quite comfortable in that LCM role — and Law, obviously, dropping back as it was his game. With the passers that I have in my backline and midfield it won't be hard to find one of my front three — or to bypass Moby's great midfield with some nice interplay between my midfielders and forwards.

 

[harms]

Could have posted that without the tag.

Yeah, because he wouldn't get an alert as I quoted him... oh wait

 

[Moby]

Yeah, because he wouldn't get an alert as I quoted him... oh wait

OK mate. Like I said, to each his own.

 

[Physiocrat]

If, despite repeated explanations, it is not understood that he will not spend the entire game out wide then what is point of having any instructions in here?

Henry at Barca played in a similar sort of front three and IIRC he complained about starting so wide

@Enigma_87

I think Henry is at his best as in a front two with license to roam left with a direct creative forward either alongside him in a 442 or behind him in a 352 or diamond.

 

[Moby]

@Moby - More on how you'd get past harms low midfield block and dealing with the threat of Beckham.

Thanks for the detailed analysis, Joga.

If by low midfield block you mean his midfield staying fairly deep in the middle then firstly I don't see that making the team function optimally at all, especially since he has taken the Brazilian set ups as the inspiration where the central midfield forayed forward and played with attacking intent pushing forward, same as the 4-4-2s Becks and Neville played in. With that in mind, I had set up to soak up that aerial bombardment from out wide, draw those CMs forward and firing attacks instantly without giving them much time to react. Secondly, given the creative engine in them right from Hansen being able to bypass the entire central area with his accurate forward punts to the front three galloping forward to all three CMs having the required composure, technique and pin point passing ability to play through those CMs. I don't see them struggling against any hard tackling or being chased from behind, it is precisely what they excel playing against.

As for Beckham, have already conceded that it's a really good route to goal and I can see him combining with Pele and being good for a goal. But in Hansen and Silva I see enough ability to battle it out in the air and not let the damage get any worse than that. And if we can keep it to that, it would be enough as I definitely see my forward getting at least a couple of goals, especially if Ronaldo isolates Vidic time and again. And as has been discussed, the attacking potency directly correlates to how much of the platform is provided by midfield, which is where I would say again that I will gain the upper hand and in turn would be able to negate that threat via keeping possession for quite a few phases.

 

[Moby]

Henry at Barca played in a similar sort of front three.

He didn't, whatsoever. I am not using that version of him. I am using the Arsenal version and playing him in this role, where his actual performances in that team and the positions he took on the pitch very much accurately map to what he will be doing here. As I said, will be a good idea to have a look at his goals throughout his time at Arsenal and see where attacked the defense from. One of his greatest goals came against United right from the spot where he is on the graphic, and he is not meant to stay there anyway.

I have nowhere mentioned what he did at Barca as a reference to my usage of him, fair enough if you want to use your own assumptions but that's massively unfair on the manager who has clearly laid out the instructions and the version that is being used and it gets completely ignored.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87

I think Henry is at his best as in a front two with license to roam left with a direct creative forward either alongside him in a 442 or behind him in a 352 or diamond.

Indeed. Still in a 4-3-3 which Moby is sporting an inside left of sorts playing off the CF or even interchanging with Ronaldo isn't much different to me. As we both agree the only thing that is lacking is the overlapping full back.

On other hand Ronaldo himself dropped a lot wide to find space, so could see that fluidity here and ability to work as a team up top, whilst Figo is closer to the byline and providing the crosses/assists.

 

[Don Alfredo]

By the way, I know that @Balu don't like when we refer to him as an all-german authority but let's face it, he is
(it's from 2017, so it's possible although not likely that he changed his mind)

That is not the unanimous opinion about midfielders in Germany. Kroos just won footballer of the year in Germany, which Effenberg never did. His body of work for the national team is much better and his club career is also way more high profile, although tbf Kroos played in better teams.

I am actually surprised about the underrating Zito got in this game. I can't think of a better upgrade for Casemiro, for a possession based approach. There are more than half a dozen Box2Box midfielders better than those in harms' midfield and quite a considerable amount of better midfield playmakers compared to Kroos and Modric, but I really don't think there are many pure DMs who are better than Zito. He is pretty much right up there with the best DMs ever, alongside Varela and Rikjaard. I also thought Zito was a huge steal for 55m when Rikjaard cost 160m, but maybe that is just my personal rating.

 

[harms]

I am actually surprised about the underrating Zito got in this game. I can't think of a better upgrade for Casemiro, for a possession based approach. There are more than half a dozen Box2Box midfielders better than those in harms' midfield and quite a considerable amount of better midfield playmakers compared to Kroos and Modric, but I really don't think there are many pure DMs who are better than Zito. He is pretty much right up there with the best DMs ever, alongside Varela and Rikjaard. I also thought Zito was a huge steal for 55m when Rikjaard cost 160m, but maybe that is just my personal rating.

I've picked Zito before and I think that he's underrated but he'a not even close to Rijkaard

 

[Don Alfredo]

I've picked Zito before and I think that he's underrated but he'a not even close to Rijkaard

Really? Just out of interest, who do you have in that pure DM top tier (besides Varela and Rikjaard) or just below that, if not Zito?

 

[Enigma_87]

Really? Just out of interest, who do you have in that pure DM top tier (besides Varela and Rikjaard) or just below that, if not Zito?

Desailly? Also Voronin, Makelele..

 

[harms]

Really? Just out of interest, who do you have in that pure DM top tier (besides Varela and Rikjaard) or just below that, if not Zito?

That depends on a definition of a defensive midfielder. To be honest, I'm not even sure that Zito belongs in this category, as he was a complete midfielder with a good passing range and he frequently joined the attack as well (take a look at his goal in the 1962 final — and he'd made a few runs like this in that game).

So he'll be in my defensive mid/defensive b2b pool which includes Desailly, Voronin, Makele, as Enigma mentioned, plus the likes of Souness, Stielike, Deschamps, Schweiny, Gonsalves etc. — not all of them are significantly better than Zito, but they're at least his equals. Like I said — with Pelé (and Garrincha) in their teams, Effenberg and Lerby would've won much more — and Zito enjoyed their company both in the NT and at the club level. Again, not to say that he was not important, but he was not a decisive player in any of his title runs (like Effenberg, for example, was).

Will try to answer the rest of the questions tomorrow, I'm hammered and would prefer to make my arguments sober

 

[Indnyc]

Desailly? Also Voronin, Makelele..

We had Makelele called overrated in the previous match Though in general i agree with your list.. Zito wouldn't be too far away in my book

 

[Enigma_87]

We had Makelele called overrated in the previous match Though in general i agree with your list.. Zito wouldn't be too far away in my book

To me Makelele and Zito are generally in the same boat. I rate the former a lot in pure DM sense since we're comparing him here to that exact position. Obviously in double pivot or 4-2-3-1 he'd be farther on the list but as a pure defensive midfielder it's hard to look past him. He has proper credentials on all levels.

 

[Tuppet]

We had Makelele called overrated in the previous match Though in general i agree with your list.. Zito wouldn't be too far away in my book

I still stand by it Not that he was not a great DM or anything, but the way he is praised as creating a position is too much for how limited he was, he almost played like a third center back. He was definitely overrated in my book and as mentioned his legacy got amplified with Real's stupidity and Zidane's comments. I also don't think Zito is underrated here, Brazil's world cup wins were hardly due to midfield dominations. Now his partner is the one who is underrated IMO, there is just no easy way to play Didi in draft games.

 

[Indnyc]

I still stand by it Not that he was not a great DM or anything, but the way he is praised as creating a position is too much for how limited he was. He was definitely overrated in my book and as mentioned his legacy got amplified with Real's stupidity and Zidane's comments. I also don't think Zito is underrated here, Brazil's world cup wins were hardly due to midfield dominations. Now his partner is the one who is underrated IMO, there is just no easy way to play Didi in draft games.

Do think he was on par with what Zito brings to the team.

Very good player but again there are better players out there.

Didi might work in a 3 man midfield in draft games.. I think..

 

[Tuppet]

Do think he was on par with what Zito brings to the team.

That I agree with, Zito was a much better passer though.

 

[harms]

Bump — in case if anyone will see the disparity between Pelé — Law and Hansen — Silva partnerships

 

[harms]

Just to show how effective Denis Law (who somehow went under the radar in this game) can be at his best — combining the roles of a center forward with playmaking and even defensive side of the game. All those flicks and one-twos are also the reason why I've picked him to play with Pelé — he'll feel right in his element


Cracking all-round performance against Leicester in the FA Cup final, our first trophy post Munich. Unbelievable how complete his game is, a real menace all over the pitch


A real classic and one for the ages, with di Stefano, Eusebio, Gento, Kopa, Masopust, Djalma Santos, Sir Bobby Moore, Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Charlton, Lev Yashin, Schnellinger, Puskas etc on the same pitch.

 

[idmanager]

A real classic and one for the ages, with di Stefano, Eusebio, Gento, Kopa, Masopust, Djalma Santos, Sir Bobby Moore, Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Charlton, Lev Yashin, Schnellinger, Puskas etc on the same pitch.

Do share if you have the full game handy.

 

[Balu]

Could have posted that without the tag.

I haven't voted in a draft game in years. I think you'll survive this tag.

 

[harms]

Do share if you have the full game handy.

 

[idmanager]

Thnx, should be a fun watch

 

[harms]

Thnx, should be a fun watch

Yeah, it was a brilliant game

 

[Physiocrat]

By my reckoning harms breaks the draw with the lowest average pick time.

 

[Moby]

Congrats, harms. Add this to your list of consecutive games where I voted against you.

 

[Enigma_87]

Congratulations, @harms . Very little to separate the sides if any. Rate all your defenders but to me that Moby trio was as fantastic as possibly can get given the restrictions and would just edge it in a tight game.

 

[harms]

Congrats, harms. Add this to your list of consecutive games where I voted against you.

Nah, it doesn't count. Tough luck, add a great left back and you could've gone all the way

 

[harms]

Interesting game. Classic nuanced '4-4-2' vs a more straight-forward 4-3-3.

On the midfield battle, I'm not quite buying the narrative. It's a nice midfield trio for Moby and I definitely expect them to have the upper hand in the possession stakes (as too does harms as per his tactical approach), but do see them facing significant resistance here. Both Lerby and Effenberg seem to be getting underrated here, esp the former who has held his own against some great midfields in his era - against the French Carre Magique in the 1984 Euros for instance.

Just had time to watch this. Is this a new one? Brilliant, as usual (both you and Lerby )

 

[Joga Bonito]

Just had time to watch this. Is this a new one? Brilliant, as usual (both you and Lerby )

Aye it's a new one and had it from some time ago but didn't upload it since it was Euros footage and was sure it would have been taken down, but doesn't look to be the case . Thought it was pertinent given how he was underrated in this match and portrayed as some sort of indisciplined and gung-ho midfielder.

 

[Ecstatic]

Another great game.

Both teams are part of my top 4 in this draft.

Law-Pele is a perfect duo in a 4-4-2 system but I think I would have preferred Robert Pirès/Overmars instead of Rensenbrink/Beckham here. I am certainly negatively biased with Neville while I rate very high Henry. It seems I am a Gunner!

Also, I think Thiago Silva 2010-2012 was the more talented CB of the last decade and since a trivial injury in 2013, he has become less brilliant, aggressive and offensive.

So, you know why I voted for Ronaldo-Figo-Henry despite the fact Pele would have destroyed Zito. By the way, I was surprised to see that Moby took Zito instead of Makélélé who was less expensive IIRC and much more suited here IMO.

I expect harms to upgrade his wings.

 

[harms]

I expect harms to upgrade his wings.

Don't

 

[Ecstatic]

Don't

I don't think all the voters have explained their vote but maybe I shouldn't have taken the time to express my views.

 

[harms]

I don't think all the voters have explained their vote but maybe I shouldn't have taken the time to express my views.

Sorry if it sounded rude, I didn't mean it that way — I appreciate you explaining your vote, it's just that I don't plan to upgrade my wings unless Garrincha becomes available (especially not to Pires/Overmars, which is a downgrade in my eyes)

 

[Moby]

Nah, it doesn't count

Didn't stop you counting my votes from games where I was actually facing you the last time you decided to pull up the 'consecutive games' stat.

 

[harms]

Didn't stop you counting my votes from games where I was actually facing you the last time you decided to pull up the 'consecutive games' stat.

I was too lazy to check then, I've spent enough time on it as it is