Patrick Dorgu | 2024/25 Performances
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No, I think it's less clever to assume that every 20-year-old you sign halfway through a poor season who doesn't immediately set the world alight is shit.
I believe you'd like us to sign another left wingback? Good news, he's landing in Manchester next month. Unfortunately, as he's young, he might need time to learn too. Poor kid.
That's fine. Because that's not what I assume. If you want to be clever, maybe start by not thinking in crass absurd generalisations, or assume that others are too.
Whilst I am still in doubts about him, I will give him the benefit of doubt.
Coming into a poor Manutd team and asked to perform at high level.
Sometimes you need luck, a cross where the forward decides to finish rather than not.
He has the Pace and power to play in that position, hopefully its a confidence thing which we can work on.
Once the team start to play how Amorim wants to, I hope he can improve.
Coming into a poor Manutd team and asked to perform at high level.
Sometimes you need luck, a cross where the forward decides to finish rather than not.
He has the Pace and power to play in that position, hopefully its a confidence thing which we can work on.
Once the team start to play how Amorim wants to, I hope he can improve.
"Shit" seemed a decent shorthand for "has limited ability to play the ball with any precision" when discussing someone who's job involves playing the ball with at least some precision. Sorry if my terminology missed some subtle difference there.
To be fair, reading your replies from before I jumped at you, it's possible I actually did.
No worries, it happens.
I'm sorry, I know people have been told off for the lack of quality in there posts back and forth on this but like...are there really people who don't think Dorgu is an improvement on Dalot at left wing-back??
Dorgu is so much more of a threat going forward that it isn't even funny. Our left flank might as well not have existed when Dalot was our wing back, which I don't blame on Dalot since he isn't at all equipped to play as a left wing-back. Dorgu, for all his faults, definitely causes opponents problems because he actually pushes to the byline and gives the full-back something to think about.
He's very far from the finished article but, to be honest, some of the vitriol directed at Dorgu is ludicrously over-the-top.
Dorgu is so much more of a threat going forward that it isn't even funny. Our left flank might as well not have existed when Dalot was our wing back, which I don't blame on Dalot since he isn't at all equipped to play as a left wing-back. Dorgu, for all his faults, definitely causes opponents problems because he actually pushes to the byline and gives the full-back something to think about.
He's very far from the finished article but, to be honest, some of the vitriol directed at Dorgu is ludicrously over-the-top.
It is just as silly to assume time will automatically extrapolate better outcome. Dorgu evidently doesn't have the fundamentals. I'm talking passing ability, shooting, dribbling. These are skills you have or you don't. It won't happen due to the concept of time.
As I said, from watching him I believe he quite often thinks he has more time than he does. It's a pretty common problem with young players, and Serie A players, and players who join a tougher league midseason. Dorgu is all 3 of those things. So I believe there's a pretty strong case for not writing him off entirely.
Passing, shooting, and dribbling as skills that he has no ability at and can't improve? Come on now.
Perhaps that's the issue. These players don't face enough pressure. They come to Manchester United and coast along as if they have made it. A key reason why Manchester United is now rubbing shoulders with scraps at the bottom of the Premier league. I'm sure your assumptions were also extended to the likes of Luke Shaw and Phil Jones. Players who were bought for their so called "potential" but have subsequently collapsed into scrap because they were not good enough.
Dorgu's age will not save him. Time will not automatically expand his quality. His real time performances and technical ability will do that, something he is failing to do spectacularly. Manchester United is not a creche. If you are here then it means you have to perform. If he can't handle the pressure, then pop back to Lecce and have some cornetto.
Oh right, it's one of those. I apologise for wasting my time.
You're making this assertion that "time will not automatically expand his quality" but, like, surely you are the one making a much bigger assumption in just proclaiming that he's reached his level and definitely has no room to improve?
Dorgu is 20 years old. You will find precisely zero serious analysts who believe that this is even close to a player's peak age. At a minimum, he's got about three or four years before he even enters his peak years. He's also joined a side that has massively struggled all season in January, and has taken a huge step-up from Lecce in terms of the pressure and expectations that will be weighing on him. And for all that, I don't even think he's been bad.
Also, bringing up that "players come to United and think they've made it" in relation to Dorgu is just criminally unfair. Whatever else anyone wants to say about him, I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that he has any attitude issues. In fact, his application on the pitch has been great, which is all we really have to judge this at the moment.
Hopefully really kickstarts his Utd career with a top performance tomorrow night.
The primary reason we're towards the bottom of the league is that our players are physically not up to the rigours of the PL. That's an issue Dorgu helps to remedy.
Plus you're missing the point that, while still not the finished article, he's still better than any other option we have at LWB (save perhaps a fully fit Luke Shaw, when was the last time we saw him?). If he pops back to Lecce to have some cornetto, we'll be much worse off.
If we had a decent 9 playing this season he'd of had about 9 assists, he's inconsistent, he's also 20 and new to the league, I don't get the hate at all, he's certainly not 'spectacularly' failing at anything.
I hope he does, but I can't recall a lot of examples of young players who were substandard passers, shooters and technically weak but subsequently became proficient in those aspects of the game. Technically strong players tend to look technically good also as youngsters, and in most cases, young inexperienced players struggle with things like physicality, pace of events, decision-making and consistency. I'm sure he can improve, but there are basically two problems:
1. He's our first choice LWB right now, which probably is not ideal either for him or the team.
2. His basics in technique, shooting and passing just look really, really weak. Frankly I find it hard imagining him becoming good or even adequate in those areas, it's just a very big gap. I was never thinking that about Amad, for example, when we first saw him.
I'm not saying we should ditch him or anything, but at this point I don't think he has first XI quality.
I've made no assertion. I'm simply countering excuses and cliche used to tolerate abject performances from players. The club needs to expect much better from players joining the club regardless of age. Fundamental technique should not and must not be compromised and for a long time now, Manchester United has allowed technically poor players to litter the club.
Dorgu struggles with basic 5 yard passes at times, struggles to cross the ball consistently well, struggles to dribble past players in over 90 minutes in several starts now. These are unacceptable issues. We haven't even stepped into the realm of his reading of the game, temperament under pressure, defensive awareness, etc.
Now I'm not here debating whether he has reached his peak, I'm pointing out that Manchester United should expect a base line of quality. I don't believe he has the base line quality which was initially invested in. Now, the poor recruitment team at the club should probably be blamed for failing at basic footballing due diligence. I do not believe that time will suddenly hand Dorgu qualities he has not shown for Lecce, Denmark, or Manchester United. I am also saying that Manchester United cannot afford to wait around. If he isn't good enough, he should be replaced as a big club with ambition should.
In terms of his attitude, I don't know him well and will not evaluate it. I am just saying players at United should face immediate pressure when they are in the team. That is how you elevate standards in every area of the club. Only the very best should be donning the Manchester United shirt.
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The first one to come to mind is obviously Evra, an older midseason purchase, who looked pretty tragic at first. I mean he loved a slide tackle and could jump, but that was pretty much all I thought of him those first couple of months.
A bit more contemporary, look at clubs like Brighton or Brentford, who buy players like Caicedo or Damsgaard and stick em on ice for a year before they're even properly in the team. We obviously don't have that luxury here with Dorgu (as you allude to yourself) as he's the only fit left-sided player at the club, but I'm not overly concerned if he's not immediately refined. It's not exactly ideal that he has had to start straight away, but that's where we're at.
Don't get me wrong - I'll be way more critical if he's exactly the same next season. But I've seen players come good after hard starts, and I think it's often just needing to build into your automatisms that you don't have as much time on the ball as you think you do here.
And for a positive we can probably all agree on, nobody is questioning if he's physically capable, which is usually the first hurdle our signings fall at.
Honestly, I think an absolutely massive issue with the side right now is that there are so many players that this applies to. You have our expert squad-building to thank for that!
Dorgu, Hojlund, Garnacho, Mainoo, and Yoro are all of an age where they need to be given time to make mistakes and yet all bar Mainoo are starting pretty much week-in-week-out. Yoro has risen to the occasion beautifully. Mainoo and Garnacho were great last season and have shown glimpses again this season, but predictably for players their age are also inconsistent. I even think Dorgu has, as you say, already shown evident potential. Hojlund is by far the one who has struggled the most, and this is perhaps to be expected given that he was the most expensive of the bunch and thus is carrying the greatest burden of expectation.
I almost feel that people forget that it's actually not massively common that players are fully-fledged starters at Premier League teams at the age of 21. An intelligently put together squad will have an established core of peak age (i.e. 24-30 year old) players to shoulder the majority of the burden and let these younger players find their feet. Our peak age players are typically either new signings (i.e. De Ligt and Mazraoui) or injury prone (Mount, Shaw and Martinez). The only three peak age players who have established themselves in the side are Onana, Dalot and Fernandes, which means these younger players are carrying far more of a burden than they really should be.
I think we just fundamentally disagree on how good Dorgu is, honestly.
I agree that his technique needs some refinement but I cannot accept that he's below par when it comes to dribbling. As this graphic shows, he performs really well when it comes to carrying the ball relative to his peers at full-back. I also think his crossing is basically fine. There have been multiple times where he's put a dangerous cross into the area and there's been nobody there to meet it.
Pretty much.
I think he is awful. Absolutely no ball control skills and never puts a cross in, even though the opportunity is there.
Generally people seem to think he's good. What am I missing ?
Generally people seem to think he's good. What am I missing ?
From the posts I've seen on this forum I would say the general feeling is he has been average at best.
However he is only 20, in a new league, limited time to train with his teammates and in a struggling team.
He needs time before we can judge him. Physically he is pretty good and gets into good positions albeit he isn't making the most of them at the moment.
I don't think it is. The hardest part is the physical side of things as pace and stamina are vital to contribute to good levels on both ends of the pitch. Also wingbacks usually aren't expected to be as threatening as wingers nor be as defensively astute as fullbacks. I think those players simply became quite rare since there isn't a big demand/need/market for them since a lot of systems focus on more specialist approaches with Winger and Fullbacks. Players who have the required skillset and physical attributes often become fullbacks. I'd make the bold statement, that every fullback that is known for his good attacking output and isn't a slouch when it comes to energy to work his side could play the wingback role more than just fine. Theo Hernandez, Davies - would look just fine at Fullback. Antonio Valencia or Ashley Young would have looked decently there as well. I think Darmian has played WB before his time at Manchester and then when being back in Italy as well.
I think, the notion that such players are so crazy rare these days is a bit overstated. Doesn't mean that good ones aren't difficult to find but that applies to fullbacks just as much. With the exception that this is a position that is in bigger demands and therefor with a better "supply line".
I actually don't think, his profile looks too bad there. I mean, he stacks up just fine against fullbacks but falls short compared to wingers. Fbref percentiles (in case you used those) aren't very favorably to this position because you can only stack them up either against wingers (who are attacking specialists and therefor should be expected to have an upper hand to a degree) or fullbacks (who are defensive specialists).
I think, it is valid concern and I guess, a few of us hoped for him to be a little more refined. But being raw was one of the descriptions coming from Italy as well so it was to be expected to a degree. Given that we brought him in for an urgent need in the winter, there wasn't a huge pool to pick from and what doesn't get too much recognition from his critics (at least I feel it isn't too much) is that he came in here and contributed from day one. In a new league, a new country and in a struggling team. I think, the expectation that he would be able to do just that, might have been the decision maker to choose him.
And on another note - a comparison to Amad will probably often be a tad unfair. I think, even when younger, Amads technique, dribbling and game intelligence were singled out explicitly so using him as a reference will make most people look insufficient. Amads technique looks way more refined than the complete rest of the United team right now - Rashford and Garnacho have been talked of in terms of their dribbling, but their dribbling is more about speed and using their pace, which is why they often struggle when the space is restricted.
I think there were some who believed that a proper attacking LWB would be a very potent ingredient to activate the Amorim 3-4-2-1. And we would look a different team once we had that LWB
That clearly hasn't happened and is contributing to the negative views about Dorgu.
That clearly hasn't happened and is contributing to the negative views about Dorgu.
Caf before signing him: "top class", "exciting", "who let the dorgu out?", etc.
Caf now: "worse than Dalot", "limited footballer".
Caf now: "worse than Dalot", "limited footballer".
The worse than dalot bit is one thing that most people don't realize that he's actually a good footballer who just we couldn't afford to rest and moved out of position to cover for others being broken, but in reality we would need to spend a significant amount of money just to have a chance at maybe getting someone better, but with a decent chance of them not actually being better. Dorgu is a good talent, but I don't think he has as much natural on ball football talent as Dalot.Caf before signing him: "top class", "exciting", "who let the dorgu out?", etc.
Caf now: "worse than Dalot", "limited footballer".
Yeah, that didn't happen.Caf before signing him: "top class", "exciting", "who let the dorgu out?", etc.
Caf now: "worse than Dalot", "limited footballer".
"Caf" would suggest that at least a majority of posters were calling Dorgu 'Top class', 'Exciting' etc.....which is total fecking horseshit.
What do you mean? there were quite a lot of excitements when we're about to sign him. Just like when we're about to sign anyone really. I mean we've got a thread about creating chants for Weghorst. At least you agree with the 'who let the dorgu out' part though.
All I'm saying is, calm down for a bit. He joined us when we're really struggling, not even during the "honeymoon" part of Ruben becoming manager. It's right after, when we had lots of issues. Give the lad some chance. I don't think he's as bad as what some posters are making him out to be recently. Several good games and we'd be praising him again.
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A lot of people pointed out his limitations and preferred FernandezCaf before signing him: "top class", "exciting", "who let the dorgu out?", etc.
Caf now: "worse than Dalot", "limited footballer".
Valid point taken on Amad. But I think the question remains if one can confidently expect a young player who shows his level of ability on the ball to develop relatively quickly into a player without enough quality in those areas to fill the function he currently has in the team?
On the fbref report. If you filter by PL, there is no option to compare with wingers, presumably because he hasn't played as one for United. You are right to point out that comparing him to FBs, you are really comparing him to a category of players that are generally more defensively oriented than a WB in Amorims system. However, that should have the effect of making his offensive stats (in terms of percentiles) look better than they actually are, and his defensive ones worse than they actually are. Despite that, it is in fact his offensive stats that look problematic, while he generally appears very strong in most of the defensive ones.
I'm not sure I agree his profile looks "not too bad". I mean, there are quite a few strong areas, so it shows some marked qualities. And some things can be put down at least in part to how he is deployed, for example his low volume of passing (and probably also in part his relatively low passing accuracy), which must be seen in conjunction with the fact that unlike most FBs, he's not taking much part in the sort of safe sideways passing at the back that tend to make defenders the most frequent passers on any team. But for someone whose level of involvement in the attacking third is so high, I think it's hard not to be concerned about how many key areas connected to that in which he is sub-average. That would be the general eye-test impression too.
I think he has the natural raw power and pace which are useful weapons to scare the opposition with. The passing and decision making aspects of his game can be improved with coaching so I am sure he will improve given time. Apart from Irwin, Evra has been my favourite fullback. But Evra started so badly for the first couple of months that I thought he would never make it.
You'd probably be better off going on squawka and picking players to directly compare him to (Ait-Nouri, Robinson, Munoz, Mitchell, as some suggestions maybe?), while keeping in mind he's got about a third the sample size in the Premier League.
Tottenham 1:0 Man Utd
Was one of the players at fault for the goal, but otherwise had a good game.
Did alright tonight, elevating him to godly status compared to most of the rest of the team
Did fine I thought
He has no offensive qualities. Had some good tackles, but ultimately lacks on both ends the cutting edge
Did nothing offensively.
But at least he tried.
Not one of his worst games.
But at least he tried.
Not one of his worst games.
Thought he was actually one of our better players.
Which is more of a statement about everyone else.
Which is more of a statement about everyone else.
I did too actually, thought he did ok.
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