[Borys]

Cunha is very technical, his ball retention and ball carrying and ability to interlink is stupidly higher than Dorgu, it's not even a competition.

He's a player who is capable of 15 or so goals in this league from a relegation fighting side, I think we all know what he can do with time.

Cunha ball retention is non existent, whether that is because he's forcing things, is in poor form or nervous AND if that can be fixed is another matter.

The fact is, Dorgu performed well in attacking (RW/LW) and defensive (LB/LWB) positions in the last 5 games and looked like a decent footballer wherever he played while Cunha was played on the right and looked like could not control a ball. Dorgu also has more goal contributions than Cunha in recent history for us.

Cunha is getting a free pass for whatever reason on this forum from the fans, that's fine, but I don't like playing other footballers (who have performed comforteably better like Dorgu or Sesko) down just to make it Matheus look better:

Really it isn't. Also we know cunhas technical quality and we know he has a high ceiling. We know Dorgu is tremendously limited technically, so these small sample sizes you point to really don't mean anything substantial because he's never cut out to be an attacker for a top team.

From what "we" have seen this season, Cunha looks more technically-limited player than Dorgu (who isn't even that proficient technically, but hardly an issue for a fullback or 2nd choice winger that he is).

 

[Varun1]

Cunha ball retention is non existent, whether that is because he's forcing things, is in poor form or nervous AND if that can be fixed is another matter.

The fact is, Dorgu performed well in attacking (RW/LW) and defensive (LB/LWB) positions in the last 5 games and looked like a decent footballer wherever he played while Cunha was played on the right and looked like could not control a ball. Dorgu also has more goal contributions than Cunha in recent history for us.

Cunha is getting a free pass for whatever reason on this forum from the fans, that's fine, but I don't like playing other footballers (who have performed comforteably better like Dorgu or Sesko) down just to make it Matheus look better:

From what "we" have seen this season, Cunha looks more technically-limited player than Dorgu (who isn't even that proficient technically, but hardly an issue for a fullback or 2nd choice winger that he is).

I haven't been critical of Dorgu as he hasn't been with the team long & is young, but I thought he was poor in attack yesterday. Is it just me?But so was Cunha & Mount. The latter needs to go IMO, far too many question marks for somebody on such high salary.

 

[Trigestis]

Really it isn't. Also we know cunhas technical quality and we know he has a high ceiling. We know Dorgu is tremendously limited technically, so these small sample sizes you point to really don't mean anything substantial because he's never cut out to be an attacker for a top team.

I don't understand your reluctance to give him praise for anything. It's always just a stream of negative shit from you when it comes to him, it's weird. Did you not see his goal against Newcastle? Or his goal for Denmark against Scotland? Tremendously limited technically, as if he hasn't created more chances than Semenyo, Cunha, Ndiaye or Bernardo Silva. He has two assists directly from his crosses. What other backs in the league has that?

Are you unable to acknowledge that he has improved and is doing better? You're making it sound like he is the worst player that has played in the Premier League.

 

[VP89]

He’s poor technically, let’s be honest. His first touch often bounces a few yards away from him. He has other qualities, though.

He's played badly in the past few games but he's certainly not poor technically. He's frustrated and things havent come off for him in very recent games, but he's in the PL for a long time and been among the best attackers for a reason.

Cunha ball retention is non existent, whether that is because he's forcing things, is in poor form or nervous AND if that can be fixed is another matter.

The fact is, Dorgu performed well in attacking (RW/LW) and defensive (LB/LWB) positions in the last 5 games and looked like a decent footballer wherever he played while Cunha was played on the right and looked like could not control a ball. Dorgu also has more goal contributions than Cunha in recent history for us.

Cunha is getting a free pass for whatever reason on this forum from the fans, that's fine, but I don't like playing other footballers (who have performed comforteably better like Dorgu or Sesko) down just to make it Matheus look better:

From what "we" have seen this season, Cunha looks more technically-limited player than Dorgu (who isn't even that proficient technically, but hardly an issue for a fullback or 2nd choice winger that he is).

Cunha is a direct player, his ball carrying is generally very good and yes he's forcing things which is a big part as to why he's been poor in the past couple of games but he's technically in another world to Dorgu. Dorgu has played well in the last 2 games, but this idea that Dorgu is technically competent let alone close to Cunha is insane.

I don't understand your reluctance to give him praise for anything. It's always just a stream of negative shit from you when it comes to him, it's weird. Did you not see his goal against Newcastle? Or his goal for Denmark against Scotland? Tremendously limited technically, as if he hasn't created more chances than Semenyo, Cunha, Ndiaye or Bernardo Silva. He has two assists directly from his crosses. What other backs in the league has that?

Are you unable to acknowledge that he has improved and is doing better? You're making it sound like he is the worst player that has played in the Premier League.

Maybe read my posts again then. I've said quite a lot that he's much improved, but thats owing to him putting his anxiety aside to his credit, and going for it. He's still technically not good enough, and will be decent as a squad player because of his physical attributes - nothing more. We're shitting on Dalot sideways 10 years on, and Dorgu is like him when he joined.

 

[Trigestis]

Maybe read my posts again then. I've said quite a lot that he's much improved, but thats owing to him putting his anxiety aside to his credit, and going for it. He's still technically not good enough, and will be decent as a squad player because of his physical attributes - nothing more. We're shitting on Dalot sideways 10 years on, and Dorgu is like him when he joined.

So he's 21, much improved since he joined, but he can't improve further than a squad player at best? Genuinely, how do you know this? What could you possibly know about player development in elite football?

He is creating more chances than actual wingers and attacking midfielders, draws third or fourth most fouls in the league (indicating that he is actually difficult to get off the ball), created more big chances than any back/wingback in the league, nearly 30% crossing accuracy (more than Kerkez, Frimpong, Timber, Malick Diouf, Munoz, Bradley, Malo Gusto, etc), winning more aerial duels than any other backs, great attitude, ridiculous work rate and quite solid defensively. Despite this, you've just decided he cannot develop further, and be even better?

 

[VP89]

So he's 21, much improved since he joined, but he can't improve further than a squad player at best? Genuinely, how do you know this? What could you possibly know about player development in elite football?

He is creating more chances than actual wingers and attacking midfielders, draws third or fourth most fouls in the league (indicating that he is actually difficult to get off the ball), created more big chances than any back/wingback in the league, nearly 30% crossing accuracy (more than Kerkez, Frimpong, Timber, Malick Diouf, Munoz, Bradley, Malo Gusto, etc), winning more aerial duels than any other backs, great attitude, ridiculous work rate and quite solid defensively. Despite this, you've just decided he cannot develop further, and be even better?

Because the areas in his game that are lacking are quality. Technical quality that you can only refine to a certain level. Dalot was similar to him when he joined, arguably better at a younger age. Look at how he's developed - some parts of his game has really improved but still lacking massively as a footballer.

You can talk about creating chances all you want but he's being thrust into very attacking areas and creating chances during counters with plenty of space to attack. Last time I checked none of your players bar Munoz play in a front 3, and if you're actually suggesting Munoz is not as much of an attacking threat as Dorgu we should stop right now.

 

[Trigestis]

Because the areas in his game that are lacking are quality. Technical quality that you can only refine to a certain level. Dalot was similar to him when he joined, arguably better at a younger age. Look at how he's developed - some parts of his game has really improved but still lacking massively as a footballer.

You can talk about creating chances all you want but he's being thrust into very attacking areas and creating chances during counters with plenty of space to attack. Last time I checked none of your players bar Munoz play in a front 3, and if you're actually suggesting Munoz is not as much of an attacking threat as Dorgu we should stop right now.

So what is quality? He is outperforming more technical backs in the league. Do you seriously think the Premier League is all about technique? He isn't even poor, but no, he's not Nuno Mendes. Why are you talking about Dalot? They are not the same players. You're giving off one example, and based on him, Dorgu will follow in the same footsteps?

Dorgu plays in a front 3 now? For what? 2 games? And where did I say that? I said Dorgu's crossing accuracy has been better than Munoz'. You are talking so much about his shit crossing, so what would you think of Munoz'?

 

[VP89]

So what is quality? He is outperforming more technical backs in the league. Do you seriously think the Premier League is all about technique? He isn't even poor, but no, he's not Nuno Mendes. Why are you talking about Dalot? They are not the same players. You're giving off one example, and based on him, Dorgu will follow in the same footsteps?

Dorgu plays in a front 3 now? For what? 2 games? And where did I say that? I said Dorgu's crossing accuracy has been better than Munoz'. You are talking so much about his shit crossing, so what would you think of Munoz'?

No he's not. Hes not outperforming the named full backs. He's not better than timber or Munoz or Frimpong or Kerkez. Have a word with yourself

Dorgu has had MANY shit games at LWB, and his crossing is not better than Munoz. But importantly Munoz is much more refined in his game, has a better first touch, beats a man, knows what he wants to do on the ball, is a bigger goal threat and plays with lesser quality attackers too.

 

[Trigestis]

No he's not. Hes not outperforming the named full backs. He's not better than timber or Munoz or Frimpong or Kerkez. Have a word with yourself

Dorgu has had MANY shit games at LWB, and his crossing is not better than Munoz. But importantly Munoz is much more refined in his game, has a better first touch, beats a man, knows what he wants to do on the ball, is a bigger goal threat and plays with lesser quality attackers too.

He most certainly is outperforming Kerkez, what are you on? He is the most disliked player in the Liverpool squad by their own fans, and has been genuine trash all season. And no, he isn't better than the first 3 players, and that's not what I said, either. I said he is outperforming more technical backs in the league, as in other more technical players than himself. Munoz is so refined that he has created 7 chances for his players this season, and worse take-on than even Dorgu. That's how good he has been. 'kin hell, acting like he is Dani Alves.

You can talk about first touch, knowing what he wants to do with the ball and all that crap you want, it's all about doing things with it. If he always knows what to do, why does he barely create for his team? Lesser quality attackers? He has Mateta in the box, a physical specimen with good finishing and great movement. But he just can't find him with his crosses for some reason, or create for him at all. Hmm.

 

[VP89]

He most certainly is outperforming Kerkez, what are you on? He is the most disliked player in the Liverpool squad by their own fans, and has been genuine trash all season. And no, he isn't better than the first 3 players, and that's not what I said, either. I said he is outperforming more technical backs in the league, as in other more technical players than himself. Munoz is so refined that he has created 7 chances for his players this season, and worse take-on than even Dorgu. That's how good he has been. 'kin hell, acting like he is Dani Alves.

You can talk about first touch, knowing what he wants to do with the ball and all that crap you want, it's all about doing things with it. If he always knows what to do, why does he barely create for his team? Lesser quality attackers? He has Mateta in the box, a physical specimen with good finishing and great movement. But he just can't find him with his crosses for some reason, or create for him at all. Hmm.

He's not outperforming them.

Dorgu has chronically miscontrolled and over dribbled and shown a lead foot in carrying the ball. You can clearly see all the players you pointed to are much better footballers than him. I'm not denying he's improved of late but his improvements have been in a front 3, not from left wing back.

 

[Trigestis]

He's not outperforming them.

Dorgu has chronically miscontrolled and over dribbled and shown a lead foot in carrying the ball. You can clearly see all the players you pointed to are much better footballers than him. I'm not denying he's improved of late but his improvements have been in a front 3, not from left wing back.

Why does he have so much better stats in most metrics then? He is by definition outperforming many of them. When you're saying Kerkez has been better this season, honestly, the only thing you can do is laugh. Your dislike for him is showing.

 

[VP89]

Why does he have so much better stats in most metrics then? He is by definition outperforming many of them. When you're saying Kerkez has been better this season, honestly, the only thing you can do is laugh. Your dislike for him is showing.

He's playing in a more attacking role - a LWB is more attacking than a LB. And being in a front 3 is certainly more attacking than a full back.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't dislike the player, I just dont rate him.

 

[Trigestis]

He's playing in a more attacking role - a LWB is more attacking than a LB. And being in a front 3 is certainly more attacking than a full back.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't dislike the player, I just dont rate him.

Why are you talking like he has been playing as part of a front 3 for the majority of the season? He has literally just started playing there for a few games. He played LB against Brighton, and was decent there too.

A LWB also has much more responsibility because he's expected to be where the action is at all times. He needs to sprint back when defending, and sprint up when attacking, and it's a far more difficult job than "just" being a LB. Munoz is also playing as a wingback, so why can't he create as much as Dorgu? There are other wingbacks in the league too, like Diouf who apparently was much better a few months ago. It's very quiet now. You're just making things up at this point.

 

[VP89]

Why are you talking like he has been playing as part of a front 3 for the majority of the season? He has literally just started playing there for a few games. He played LB against Brighton, and was decent there too.

A LWB also has much more responsibility because he's expected to be where the action is at all times. He needs to sprint back when defending, and sprint up when attacking, and it's a far more difficult job than "just" being a LB. Munoz is also playing as a wingback, so why can't he create as much as Dorgu? There are other wingbacks in the league too, like Diouf who apparently was much better a few months ago. It's very quiet now. You're just making things up at this point.

You do know that a LWB will be more attacking than a full back, right? And thus there's a huge gaping flaw when you look at the attacking stats in isolation and compare between the two.

Dorgu has played under a style that's far more direct for fast attacks and has him in the opposition box a lot as an outlet. It's not like Timber or Kerkez stylistically or positionally.
The closest comparable in position is Munoz, who is a lot better with lesser quality attackers around him.

You are using some arbitrary stat like chances created to try and vindicate him without any real understanding as to what constitutes as a chance. May I ask why you look at this and not something that's a better indicator of the point you are making, such as Expected assists?

Chance created appears to be any pass that leads to a shot. Expected assist actually looks at this in better nuance, measuring the quality of the chance created. Munoz for example looks to be higher in this.

 

[Trigestis]

You do know that a LWB will be more attacking than a full back, right? And thus there's a huge gaping flaw when you look at the attacking stats in isolation and compare between the two.

Dorgu has played under a style that's far more direct for fast attacks and has him in the opposition box a lot as an outlet. It's not like Timber or Kerkez stylistically or positionally.

You are using some arbitrary stat like chances created to try and vindicate him without any real understanding as to what constitutes as a chance. May I ask why you look at this and not something that's a better indicator of the point you are making, such as Expected assists?

The difference is not that great, honestly. A LB will have a winger that draws attention to him, opening more space for the actual fullback. Dorgu is on his own against the fullback. Why do you think the likes of TAA and Trippier kept creating season after season, or Evra back in the day for us? Even the likes of Alfie Doughty and Digne were making a very good impact from that position. It depends on the team's playstyle, and whether the opposing team sits back or attacks. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Even if I were to use xA, it would still have him quite high, so I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? He has created most big chances in the league out of any fullbacks or wingbacks this season, and a big chance is literally a chance that has a high chance of being a goal. Arbitrary stat, right..

 

[VP89]

The difference is not that great, honestly. A LB will have a winger that draws attention to him, opening more space for the actual fullback. Dorgu is on his own against the fullback. Why do you think the likes of TAA and Trippier kept creating season after season, or Evra back in the day for us? Even the likes of Alfie Doughty and Digne were making a very good impact from that position. It depends on the team's playstyle, and whether the opposing team sits back or attacks. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Even if I were to use xA, it would still have him quite high, so I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? He has created most big chances in the league out of any fullbacks or wingbacks this season, and a big chance is literally a chance that has a high chance of being a goal. Arbitrary stat, right..

The difference is massive - at various points under Amorims system, Dorgu was the furthest forward out of all attackers. We were very direct and had him as an outlet.

His expected assists is what I expect - uninpressive. He's stationed much higher up in attacks and has lesser expected assists than Wieffer, Gundmanson, even Wolves' Hugo Bueno, let alone the territory of Daniel Munoz who is the closest comparable in position.

 

[Trigestis]

The difference is massive - at various points under Amorims system, Dorgu was the furthest forward out of all attackers. We were very direct and had him as an outlet.

His expected assists is what I expect - uninpressive. He's stationed much higher up in attacks and has lesser expected assists than Wieffer, Gundmanson, even Wolves' Hugo Bueno, let alone the territory of Daniel Munoz who is the closest comparable in position.

That is genuinely funny. You are talking about xA and completely ignoring key passes, big chances created and the number of actual assists. What were you saying about arbitrary stats?

Also, why are you ignoring xG, but acting like xA is a supreme stat?

 

[VP89]

That is genuinely funny. You are talking about xA and completely ignoring key passes, big chances created and the number of actual assists. What were you saying about arbitrary stats?

Also, why are you ignoring xG, but acting like xA is a supreme

What bit is funny?


You know EA takes this into account? You don't see the flaw of looking at just actual assists? Well for one, a shit pass can turn into a goal if the striker makes it work. And a great pass can be fumbled by a shit striker for another. Expected assists helps strip that noise out.

 

[Trigestis]

What bit is funny?


You know EA takes this into account? You don't see the flaw of looking at just actual assists? Well for one, a shit pass can turn into a goal if the striker makes it work for one. And a great pass can be fumbled by a shit striker for another. Expected assists helps strip that noise out.

It's funny that you're ignoring big chances created and hailing xA as some divine statistic that determines the quality of a player. They are almost the same. The only player that has created more big chances than Dorgu for us is Bruno. It's fine that you don't rate him, but don't pretend like they're very different statistics. A big chance created is a BIG one, and not a chance created, because of the quality of it.

For the sake of the argument, let's say you're right. Dorgu has 1.42 xA, Munoz has 2, Frimpong has 0.67, Kerkez has 0.45. What does that tell us? Does it say that Munoz is unbelievably much better because of his 0.58 difference?

 

[VP89]

It's funny that you're ignoring big chances created and hailing xA as some divine statistic that determines the quality of a player. They are almost the same. The only player that has created more big chances than Dorgu for us is Bruno. It's fine that you don't rate him, but don't pretend like they're very different statistics. A big chance created is a BIG one, and not a chance created, because of the quality of it.

For the sake of the argument, let's say you're right. Dorgu has 1.42 xA, Munoz has 2, Frimpong has 0.67, Kerkez has 0.45. What does that tell us? Does it say that Munoz is unbelievably much better because of his 0.58 difference?

I am not ignoring anything.

I have explained to you that chances created is an easier metric to meet than EA, which looks at the quality of the would be assist.

You seem to be ignoring expected assists however. Why would a player who is "performing better" than Munoz in an attacking sense have less expected assists? Can you explain this for me?

Also you are comparing full backs to wing backs again in the final post. This is getting tiresome and circular. Dorgu takes up far higher positions in direct attacks than Kerkez and Frimpong. Please can we at least compare the right players here.

Frimpong and Kerkez started poorly, in fact Frimpong was barely playing until recently no? It doesn't change the fact that Dorgu has a lot of average players above him, which tells me and you that he's underwhelming, but improved of late.

Edit - when was it big chances created? Is it big chances or chances?

 

[Trigestis]

I am not ignoring anything.

I have explained to you that chances created is an easier metric to meet than EA, which looks at the quality of the would be assist.

You seem to be ignoring expected assists however. Why would a player who is "performing better" than Munoz in an attacking sense have less expected assists? Can you explain this for me?

Also you are comparing full backs to wing backs again in the final post. This is getting tiresome and circular. Dorgu takes up far higher positions in direct attacks than Kerkez and Frimpong. Please can we at least compare the right players here.

Frimpong and Kerkez started poorly, in fact Frimpong was barely playing until recently no? It doesn't change the fact that Dorgu has a lot of average players above him, which tells me and you that he's underwhelming, but improved of late.

Edit - when was it big chances created? Is it big chances or chances?

Mate.. I think I've mentioned big chances in three of my posts, but any way, it's both, but big chances particularly because it's a better statistic and directly linked to xA.

I never said he was performing better than Munoz ffs. I said he was performing better than more technical backs/wingbacks in the league, because technique is all you seem to rate. You're talking about first touch, knowing what to do, and everything else, but ignoring the positive Dorgu does. What does a good first touch mean if they don't follow up on it? If Dorgu is so bad, why has he created more big chances than Munoz? That doesn't mean he is a better footballer, but he is performing better in many aspects, which indicates that he is not as bad as you make it out to be. I think it's because you watch and support United that you notice our players' every mistake. Munoz has completed one dribble this season, and you said he "takes players on and gets past them". I would really like to know how that happens with a singular dribble in 14 games. Imagine he did that for us, you would be livid.

PS: Frimpong has played RW for Liverpool as much as Dorgu has played that for us

 

[lex talionis]

The boy just turned 21. I'm not sure what the new manager is going to do with him, but he was growing his impact as a RW for us under the prior regime.

 

[VP89]

Mate.. I think I've mentioned big chances in three of my posts, but any way, it's both, but big chances particularly because it's a better statistic and directly linked to xA.

I never said he was performing better than Munoz ffs. I said he was performing better than more technical backs/wingbacks in the league, because technique is all you seem to rate. You're talking about first touch, knowing what to do, and everything else, but ignoring the positive Dorgu does. What does a good first touch mean if they don't follow up on it? If Dorgu is so bad, why has he created more big chances than Munoz? That doesn't mean he is a better footballer, but he is performing better in many aspects, which indicates that he is not as bad as you make it out to be. I think it's because you watch and support United that you notice our players' every mistake. Munoz has completed one dribble this season, and you said he "takes players on and gets past them". I would really like to know how that happens with a singular dribble in 14 games. Imagine he did that for us, you would be livid.

Okay so what's the premise of your point?

Dorgu has created more big chances? I am happy to take your word for that, but it's game state dependent and not telling the whole picture on where he lacks in the game. He's capable of creating a big chance but as you said this just feeds into expected assists. His expected assists is worse than a number of full backs, even though he takes up much more threatening positions.

And yeah Munoz' successful dribbles is very poor. Dorgu's is at 27% however which is not great too. There isnt a stat that vindicates him as a top performing wingback.

 

[MUrphFC]

Most improved player this season.

 

[Trigestis]

Okay so what's the premise of your point?

Dorgu has created more big chances? I am happy to take your word for that, but it's game state dependent and not telling the whole picture on where he lacks in the game. He's capable of creating a big chance but as you said this just feeds into expected assists. His expected assists is worse than a number of full backs, even though he takes up much more threatening positions.

And yeah Munoz' successful dribbles is very poor. Dorgu's is at 27% however which is not great too. There isnt a stat that vindicates him as a top performing wingback.

But we're not playing wingbacks going forward, we're going to be playing him as a fullback, so if he can continue performing like this and keep creating while also defending like he is (won most duels out of all backs in the league, and near top for ball recoveries), and you can see why that can be potentially be a very good asset?

 

[Zico1982]

Frimpong, Munoz, Kerkez & Co. are all good players, but I wouldn´t swap Dorgu with any of them. He is not as elegant, but he is outperforming them on stats already, despite being raw as hell at 21. He is also more versatile, having played several positions for us. He is improving fast despite his obvious flaws, and the physical package is showing in his duel stats. I can sometimes moan about his decision making and brain farts, but the ups are beating the shit out of the downs.

 

[VP89]

But we're not playing wingbacks going forward, we're going to be playing him as a fullback, so if he can continue performing like this and keep creating while also defending like he is (won most duels out of all backs in the league, and near top for ball recoveries), and you can see why that can be potentially be a very good asset?

Our debate happened based on what we've seen from Dorgu, and you disagreeing with the premise that he's technically limited and underwhelming in attacking areas.

Naturally we would discuss based on what we've seen. Hes only played one game as a full back, and I thought he started well but then showed the same familiar frailties.

I dont deny his ball recoveries and duels, thats his strengths. He's physical and good at using that side of his game. He's ok to bad technically and he didnt show any different in the one game hes played as a left back.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Our debate happened based on what we've seen from Dorgu, and you disagreeing with the premise that he's technically limited and underwhelming in attacking areas.

Naturally we would discuss based on what we've seen. Hes only played one game as a full back, and I thought he started well but then showed the same familiar frailties.

I dont deny his ball recoveries and duels, thats his strengths. He's physical and good at using that side of his game. He's ok to bad technically and he didnt show any different in the one game hes played as a left back.

I’ve been eating popcorn while following your discussion and have to say that you’ve been outperformed in this debate. I think you lost when you brought up an arbitrary stat after calling the other poster out for using arbitrary stats.
Based on what I’ve seen on the pitch, statistics and the majority of posters in here there’s little basis for calling him bad technically. To do that you simply have to ignore too many good moments for club (Lecce as well) and country. He’s not Foden technically, but certainly good enough to be a very promising player for us. And yes, technique can be worked on at his age too.

 

[Lennon7]

Had a great pre season, and has just been a victim of the shitshow we often turn in to. He’s now becoming the go to player.

 

[VP89]

I’ve been eating popcorn while following your discussion and have to say that you’ve been outperformed in this debate. I think you lost when you brought up an arbitrary stat after calling the other poster out for using arbitrary stats.
Based on what I’ve seen on the pitch, statistics and the majority of posters in here there’s little basis for calling him bad technically. To do that you simply have to ignore too many good moments for club (Lecce as well) and country. He’s not Foden technically, but certainly good enough to be a very promising player for us. And yes, technique can be worked on at his age too.

You're entitled to your view, but I didn't bring stats in to make the foundation of my point.

The posters basis was from arbitrary stats, sometimes absolute ones rather than % ones against players in a different position or with less minutes.

Moreover the foundation for his point was about chance creation, which Dorgu is not great in, as told by a non arbitrary and well explained statistic - expected assists. At least, this is not remotely arbitrary as compared to chance creation.

 

[Smores]

I think he'll be quite important to our play in a back 4. If we're playing Cunha on the left he's going to come central a lot meaning there's space for the fullback to occupy. He's better at that than Shaw. Just get him focused on a couple of cross/pass options, he'll get more assists by playing it simple and leaving it down to Sesko to occupy the space.

Pair him with Maz on the right who can play more conservative and it's enough balance.

 

[Trigestis]

You're entitled to your view, but I didn't bring stats in to make the foundation of my point.

The posters basis was from arbitrary stats, sometimes absolute ones rather than % ones against players in a different position or with less minutes.

Moreover the foundation for his point was about chance creation, which Dorgu is not great in, as told by a non arbitrary and well explained statistic - expected assists. At least, this is not remotely arbitrary as compared to chance creation.

3 assists, 75th percentile for xA, 96th percentile for chances created and 1st for big chance creation among all fullbacks/wingbacks in the league. He has two games where he has not been a wingback. If this isn't good chance creation for his position, what is? I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. The stats are right there.

A big chance created is a chance created that has a high probability of being scored. He leads it among all FBs/wingbacks in the league, despite having played 1162 minutes (13 full games) which is much less than many of the others in the league.

 

[VP89]

3 assists, 75th percentile for xA, 96th percentile for chances created and 1st for big chance creation among all fullbacks/wingbacks in the league. He has two games where he has not been a wingback. If this isn't good chance creation for his position, what is? I don't even know what you're arguing at this point. The stats are right there.

A big chance created is a chance created that has a high probability of being scored. He leads it among all FBs/wingbacks in the league, despite having played 1162 minutes (13 full games) which is much less than many of the others in the league.

And again, he's not comparable to most of the named players because his position is far more attacking and he's found in a lot more space becsuse of the way we play vs Arsenal or Liverpool.

His closest comparable is Munoz, who has a comfortably better expected assist metric. This tells me Munoz is better at creating goalscoring opportunities.

Dorgu has created just one more big chance than Munoz, which in isolation means nothing.

Dorgu has improved massively but he's technically still wanting. I don't think I am saying anything controversial, there's plenty better right now so there's nothing to suggest hel be a long term starter for us.

 

[Trigestis]

And again, he's not comparable to most of the named players because his position is far more attacking and he's found in a lot more space becsuse of the way we play vs Arsenal or Liverpool.

His closest comparable is Munoz, who has a comfortably better expected assist metric. This tells me Munoz is better at creating goalscoring opportunities.

Dorgu has created just one more big chance than Munoz, which in isolation means nothing.

Dorgu has improved massively but he's technically still wanting. I don't think I am saying anything controversial, there's plenty better right now so there's nothing to suggest hel be a long term starter for us.

There are also plenty of players available that could improve in every position we have players in, but we're not a top team anymore, so it would be odd to expect world class players with exceptional technique in every position when we can't even get to Champions League.

I compared him to some of the best in the league, so if he is not as good as the best, does that mean he is shit? There is just nothing in between? If you're doing close to/or better in some metrics to some of the best in the league, you're obviously not poor.

Examples in other positions are strikers like Lukaku and Igor Thiago this season, technically weak strikers but that doesn't mean they're poor. Lukaku in particular has had an excellent career and was probably top 10 striker in the world at a point, and Igor Thiago has only been outscored by Haaland.

Marcos Senesi (Bournemouth CB) has 3.5 xA, Amad has 2.8, Salah has 2.4 and Ndiaye has 2.7. Does that tell you that he is better at creating goal scoring opportunities?

 

[VP89]

There are also plenty of players available that could improve in every position we have players in, but we're not a top team anymore, so it would be odd to expect world class players with exceptional technique in every position when we can't even get to Champions League.

I compared him to some of the best in the league, so if he is not as good as the best, does that mean he is shit? There is just nothing in between? If you're doing close to/or better in some metrics to some of the best in the league, you're obviously not poor.

Examples in other positions are strikers like Lukaku and Igor Thiago this season, technically weak strikers but that doesn't mean they're poor. Lukaku in particular has had an excellent career and was probably top 10 striker in the world at a point, and Igor Thiago has only been outscored by Haaland.

Marcos Senesi (Bournemouth CB) has 3.5 xA, Amad has 2.8, Salah has 2.4 and Ndiaye has 2.7. Does that tell you that he is better at creating goal scoring opportunities?

I didn't say we need world class players in every position. I've had him down as a squad player if he stays long term, just not a starter.

He's also not actually better or performing better than a lot of your names bar Kerkez and Frimpong, who are new to their clubs (and Kerkez we know was very good at Bournemouth, better than Dorgu is now).

Senesi has that because of set pieces largely but you have identified that stats alone don't tell a full story. Which is why when you tried to stat attack me, you probably should have noted the context. For example if Dorgu is creating more big chances than Timber, but is also stationed much higher up on quick counters and direct attacks, almost as the furthest man forward, he's got a huge advantage to do this than the other peers.

There isn't really a metric to capture it but there's plenty of threatening areas he's in, and he messes up the attack because his touch let him down, or the cross was terrible, or he over dribbled. The tactics up to now put him in very threatening areas almost as a key outlet, which we know of Amorims system with the wingbacks. That's not the case with most of the other teams bar Munoz with Palace.

Ultimately the concerns I have is down to his general technique. He's awkward dribbling because he's very one footed, he runs into blind alleys a lot and his first touch and control is generally wanting. You can only refine this to a certain level, which is why Dalot will be here for 10 seasons soon, and still looks out of place.

 

[Trigestis]

I didn't say we need world class players in every position. I've had him down as a squad player if he stays long term, just not a starter.

He's also not actually better or performing better than a lot of your names bar Kerkez and Frimpong, who are new to their clubs (and Kerkez we know was very good at Bournemouth, better than Dorgu is now).

Senesi has that because of set pieces largely but you have identified that stats alone don't tell a full story. Which is why when you tried to stat attack me, you probably should have noted the context. For example if Dorgu is creating more big chances than Timber, but is also stationed much higher up on quick counters and direct attacks, almost as the furthest man forward, he's got a huge advantage to do this than the other peers.

There isn't really a metric to capture it but there's plenty of threatening areas he's in, and he messes up the attack because his touch let him down, or the cross was terrible, or he over dribbled. The tactics up to now put him in very threatening areas almost as a key outlet, which we know of Amorims system with the wingbacks. That's not the case with most of the other teams bar Munoz with Palace.

Ultimately the concerns I have is down to his general technique. He's awkward dribbling because he's very one footed, he runs into blind alleys a lot and his first touch and control is generally wanting. You can only refine this to a certain level, which is why Dalot will be here for 10 seasons soon, and still looks out of place.

They both came in to a title winning team with great ownership and a club that is run properly, surrounded by great to world class players. Dorgu came in to a chaotic, regressing team with shit players, a new manager in charge for a club run by incompetent fools. Kerkez in particular should not be as poor he has been, so one could just wonder if he was just made to look better in that Bournemouth team, like players have done before.

As for the bolded part, what's your source for that? I looked it up and Senesi doesn't take set pieces?

You talk about Dorgu messing up attacks quite often and his poor crossing, but his crossing accuracy is close to 30%. That is good. He has attempted 53 crosses and 15 successful. For comparison, Timber has attempted 31 and succeeded with 2 - that's a 6.45% accuracy. Munoz has attempted 32 and succeded with 7 - 21.88% accuracy. So both are worse than Dorgu, but because Dorgu tries more and therefore fails more, he is a poor crosser? He is a wingback, that's part of his role.

Of course he messes up a lot, he is a kid in his first full season in the toughest league in the world. All players mess up, it's part of football. What we can do is hope he continues developing, and not pretending to know we have insight into what his role is going to be in the future.

 

[VP89]

They both came in to a title winning team with great ownership and a club that is run properly, surrounded by great to world class players. Dorgu came in to a chaotic, regressing team with shit players, a new manager in charge for a club run by incompetent fools. Kerkez in particular should not be as poor he has been, so one could just wonder if he was just made to look better in that Bournemouth team, like players have done before.

As for the bolded part, what's your source for that? I looked it up and Senesi doesn't take set pieces?

You talk about Dorgu messing up attacks quite often and his poor crossing, but his crossing accuracy is close to 30%. That is good. He has attempted 53 crosses and 15 successful. For comparison, Timber has attempted 31 and succeeded with 2 - that's a 6.45% accuracy. Munoz has attempted 32 and succeded with 7 - 21.88% accuracy. So both are worse than Dorgu, but because Dorgu tries more and therefore fails more, he is a poor crosser? He is a wingback, that's part of his role.

Of course he messes up a lot, he is a kid in his first full season in the toughest league in the world. All players mess up, it's part of football. What we can do is hope he continues developing, and not pretending to know we have insight into what his role is going to be in the future.

Kerkez has not been as good, but we know what he's capable of in the Premier League. Making the step up often requires some adjusting. Frimpong himself came from a foreign league and hasn't been playing a lot here.

If Dorgu showed what Kerkez did at Bournemouth I wouldn't be nearly as cynical for what its worth.

Again you're just stat attacking without using any analysis. Timber is more of an inverted fullback and doesn't pump crosses in the box as much. That's not his game. You need to compare players with similar duties and the only wing back comparable is Munoz.

We both watch Dorgu every game. We both know he has some crosses which are pretty shit, even floaters that don't do anything but has a touch from one of our players in the box counts as "successful".

I am not saying he should be completely polished in his play, there's areas in his game he can develop. But my view is he's technically quite far behind even players of a comparison age - take Livramento for example.

If he continues recent aggression in attacking I think he can be a good player for us, but from a technical standpoint I think he's definitely lacking and there's many better. He's stationed in positions that give him a lot of space because of the way we've set up stylistically, and there's been a lot of attacks I've been frustrated with because of the rawness in his play. Same with Dalot too, this isn't a Dorgu hate. I just think we need to have better quality than these players.

 

[Borys]

He's played badly in the past few games but he's certainly not poor technically. He's frustrated and things havent come off for him in very recent games, but he's in the PL for a long time and been among the best attackers for a reason.


Cunha is a direct player, his ball carrying is generally very good and yes he's forcing things which is a big part as to why he's been poor in the past couple of games but he's technically in another world to Dorgu. Dorgu has played well in the last 2 games, but this idea that Dorgu is technically competent let alone close to Cunha is insane.



Maybe read my posts again then. I've said quite a lot that he's much improved, but thats owing to him putting his anxiety aside to his credit, and going for it. He's still technically not good enough, and will be decent as a squad player because of his physical attributes - nothing more. We're shitting on Dalot sideways 10 years on, and Dorgu is like him when he joined.

I don’t think “ball carrying” understood as running with the ball in straight line counts as good technical ability. Certainly not if the player at question is seemingly not capable of holding to the ball in tight space or making a simple, but accurate pass to release the pressure. And I’ve seen those traits far more often with Dorgu than with Cunha.

Ball carrying is a good tool to have, but can’t be relied upon in every single situation on the pitch, maybe the difference between Dorgu and Cunha is the the former understands this- but it certainly makes him look like a more technical player. Even if I wouldn’t even say it’s his strength, but very much “competent”. Maybe a bit in an awkward way like AWB was. But he’s a much better attacker than he was.

 

[Rozay]

The only position he could possibly be a serviceable player here is as an orthodox left-back. He’s not a very good footballer, but a combination of some scraps of ability and decent athleticism may combine to make him a good enough full back. Not too confident though.

 

[McLvnsMuse]

Noticed that In the Brighton game we refused to build out from his wing (left). Either fletch is tactically inept or Dorgu’s technical limitations are more limiting than I assumed.

FYI the left side has our supposed “Best ball playing CB” in Martinez.

Limits our dynamism in build up.