Pattern of Play-QUESTION MARK?

OleTheGreat

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Since the days of Fergie, we have all noticed that we have had multiple formation changes. With numerous players coming in and going out we have struggled a lot to actually find flow in our gameplay. I have a hard time understanding the way we actually try to play. From the time the keeper gets the ball to how to finds one of the forward players, we don't actually have a pattern of play. I even see smaller teams who actually go out and play as drilled but we never actually go out and really outperform our opponents. Apart from a few players like Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford who when in form can beat players and make things happen, we do not have it all around the pitch as yet. We are always looking for inspiration within the team which sometimes breaks the best of players. For example, I see the difference in how Bruno has been playing the last few games- he hasn't really hit the stride like before yet he's creating chances.

What is the problem? Why aren't we drilled to move in a certain way and deceive opponents? Why aren't all our players confident on the ball?
 

Paul_Scholes18

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I think we have patterns of play. We are just not drilled well enough to play and function as a unit in attack.
Under LVG we had it to a degree, but lacked in the final third big time with too little risk.
Under Ole we have freedom in the final third, but lack the structure in the buildup.
 

Baneofthegame

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Once we beat the press we look fine, but normally we are leaving Pogba in on his own in the middle of the pitch.

Bruno at times needs to drop a bit deeper to help him out when we are being pressed like vs Southampton.
 

Eckers99

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When Ole arrived we didn't really have the defenders or midfielders to play an expansive passing game, so I think he decided to settle for making us solid defensively, with Maguire helping us to play out from the back. We initially seemed content to be compact and quick on the counter-attack, which worked against the top sides but left us short against mediocre opponents, hence all the dropped points.

Since signing Bruno - and Pogba's return - we've started to solve this problem and clearly play more attractive, fluid football when everyone is 100%. The problem is, we've got a good first 11 and a ton of mediocrity backing it up. So our solution has been undone by an overall lack of quality.

Unless you've not been watching since February, this team is more than capable of playing coherent, quality football. Ole just doesn't have faith in the likes of James, Lingard, Mata, Dalot, Pereira and maybe even Fred and Mctominay. And he's probably right about the majority of them.

We just need to fight our way through 2 more games before making moves in the market to unburden ourselves from the usual underwhelming suspects. Then we'll see more good football, more regularly.
 

Icemav

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I think we have patterns of play. We are just not drilled well enough to play and function as a unit in attack.
Under LVG we had it to a degree, but lacked in the final third big time with too little risk.
Under Ole we have freedom in the final third, but lack the structure in the buildup.
Yes its funny I was thinking the other day how well our front 4 would do in LVG's system. We had all the possession in the world and apparently his philosophy was to drill the possession play but give freedom to attackers in the final 3rd. Sadly our attackers did not have the spark. Now with Bruno-Martial-Rashford we have this beautiful 1 touch football once we get near the opposition box and it often can't be defended. The problem is getting the ball up there consistently and also shutting the opposition out of the game by holding on to possession once we have a lead.

Ole does seem to want us to pass and pass and pass and hopefully we can improve in this area because quite frankly the structure doesn't see there yet and it seems more of an ambition to do this then true patterns of play. Also our ability to pass between the lines to the forwards needs to improve because that has seriously impacted our performances recently..... I think our players have the ability here but lack the willingness at times.
 

11101

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We do have patterns in place but it's only been a few weeks in the current setup, they are not fully drilled into the players yet.

Defence passes into Matic and Pogba.
Pogba takes the ball forward, with help from Bruno if needed.
Matic sits back to cover, sometimes creating a back 3, and allows AWB/Shaw to get forward.
Rashford and Greenwood move inside to open up space for the fullbacks.
That creates 5 forwards so against a 4 man defence there is always a spare runner for Pogba and Bruno to find.
5 forwards means its easier to press and win the ball back high up the pitch.

We are struggling a bit at times because this requires Pogba and Bruno to be fit and on form, otherwise they're too easy to mark out of the game and we have no way of getting the ball through the midfield. We also lose the immediate high press if we are tired and are left with 7 players far up the pitch if the opposition counters.
 

Icemav

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We do have patterns in place but it's only been a few weeks in the current setup, they are not fully drilled into the players yet.

Defence passes into Matic and Pogba.
Pogba takes the ball forward, with help from Bruno if needed.
Matic sits back to cover, sometimes creating a back 3, and allows AWB/Shaw to get forward.
Rashford and Greenwood move inside to open up space for the fullbacks.
That creates 5 forwards so against a 4 man defence there is always a spare runner for Pogba and Bruno to find.
5 forwards means its easier to press and win the ball back high up the pitch.

We are struggling a bit at times because this requires Pogba and Bruno to be fit and on form, otherwise they're too easy to mark out of the game and we have no way of getting the ball through the midfield. We also lose the immediate high press if we are tired and are left with 7 players far up the pitch if the opposition counters.
True its early days. During the Southampton game they showed us the difference with lesser players. When they clicked the one touch triangles they used were superb and we couldn't get near them (though I also think we need to be far more intelligent defending these). By contrast several of our players hold onto the ball for ages (Maguire, Pogba, AWB, Matic) and it seems far more individualistic and also less effective.
 
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OleTheGreat

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Did you guys just witness that? What a lackluster performance from the lads out there. We couldn't play out from the back against a team like WestHam who actually sat back in the first 20 mins and then they started moving into midfield and then started playing close to us. Did you see the way they kept the ball around us. That was really sad to see. Pogba making mistakes deep in midfield and that penalty giveaway was utter bull crap. I worry about the game on sunday specially because it is away from home and we still need a point to make sure of things. This team will probably still be tired on Sunday and I'm not quite excited about the game to be quite honest after watching how we played tonight. Leicester are good in midfield and their forward players are capable of scoring many. Somebody please tell me that we'll look different in that game and we can get the points we need to get into the top4..
 

Web of Bissaka

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Three common patterns of play.

#1. Build-up and Possession play @ deep positions.
^ De Gea and back 4 passing the ball around keeping possession with short passes and kept on switching sides. The two CDMs also help. Long passings are made by the two CBs and two CDMs while the FBs only play short passes. When the FBs hold the ball, the wingers will drop deep to receive the passes. At times, Matic or Fred/McT will slot into the CBs forming into 3 CBs and when this happened, the two FBs will push further up leaving one CDM at the centre. Pogba never drop to CB.

Build-up are made by all the back 6 (two CBs, two FBs and two CDMs) in transitioning possession next up. While the two FBs will only build-up with short passes, the two CBs and two CDMs may make long passes for quicker build-ups.

Clearing the ball or pumping the ball up into our front three is second option but very likely when we are faced against good organised high press teams. This will be made by the back five (including GK).

Sometimes, two unique play may happen, a) the #10 CAM will moved back to help build-up and possession play. Also b) one of the two CBs will bring the ball upfield conducting attacks higher. Lindelof is best at doing this while Maguire tend to just pass and stop.

Interestingly, Pogba rarely dribbling-bombing forward from deep which is really interesting. Matic also rarely does this, but both of them may tend to dribbles in tight spaces in order to retain ball and continue possession/build-up. Even more interesting, only McT and Fred that tend to dribbles and bring the ball to the front.


#2. Possession play further up.
^ Simply keep the ball around, kept on switching sides and occasionally try to make the killer passes but interestingly, different players have different tendencies in what degrees they're making safe passes, forward passes, back passes, killer passes, high passes, short passes, crosses, etc.

Random.

Moves are mostly random but few repetitive patterns are repetitive but it's not clear when this will happened, seems willy nilly
eg. a) the front three switching positions but mainly retain their main position, many times you'll find them in one area eg. Martial and Rash both on LW, both Rash and Greenwood on LW, both GW and Martial inside the box too close with each other. Rashford also seems the likeliest to drift to the RW at times during the games.
eg. b) the CF usually hold his position up, but are given license to roam to the wings at times and he did, even drop deep to CDM area sometimes.
eg. c) FBs always hug the touchlines. They tend to play like side-midfielders and always overlap when the two wingers hold the ball and side-midfield near the touchline. They will also position themselves nearest to the corner flag or rush to the empty spaces (if empty) when the wingers moved infield to join in the CF and midfielders playing around outside the box. This is very often.

Positioning of the two CDMs are haphazard, they can even switch their side around, and moving inside and outside the box or remain outside, go to the wings, overlaps to the touchlines, etc. The #10 CAM Bruno's movements and positioning is always random. Similar with Mata. When Pereira and Lingard play there though, they tend to stick near the CF (Martial) and inside the box or just outside at the centre, instead of floating around like Bruno and Mata.


#3. Counter-attacks immediately.
^ This is situational, usually instigated by Bruno and Pogba. Sometimes Matic and Fred. Rarely the other players at the back. It depends on the front three mainly to attack by bursting accelerating into spaces further up or rushing up the wings. Bruno at #10 would tend to immediately start this as soon as he receive passes from deep after we regain possession.

----

One thing which is clear is the patterns of play are heavily individuals-based but not 100%, more like 95% individuals-dependent.

#4. Shape/Structure?
Bird-eye view will show that the shape is really bad especially the midfield and attacks inside/near the box.
The shape of the wings and defense are fairly good in general.

#5. Coaching?
Coaches has some influences with #1 making some players to be more discipline and risk-averse, therefore having a minimal influence in the shape.
and for #2, they only instruct the players to keep possession and passing the ball around while giving license to front four and two CBs, and instructing FBs to always join in attacks.
 

lex talionis

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We should resist the temptation to deeply analyze a starting XI that's been brutalized over the last 3-4 weeks. We can easily recognize the tactics when the players were fresh, but now that they're exhausted they're struggling.

We'll have all summer to discuss this, but we need a fourth attacking player and it appears that's going to be Sancho. That will enable that fourth player to be fresh coming off the bench and create chaos.

We also need a DM to help out Matic, who is fantastic when fit but when he's exhausted he needs someone to step in for him. That's not Fred or McTominay.

I know this isn't a transfer discussion thread so I won't say anything more on this point, but with quality additions to the squad the tactics that worked when we were fresh 2 weeks ago would work when we bring on quality players in their place. We're not going to have a world class second XI, but we can and really do need to strengthen the squad so that we don't see the precipitous deline in form when we do have to reach deep into the squad.
 

cyril C

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We should resist the temptation to deeply analyze a starting XI that's been brutalized over the last 3-4 weeks. We can easily recognize the tactics when the players were fresh, but now that they're exhausted they're struggling.

We'll have all summer to discuss this, but we need a fourth attacking player and it appears that's going to be Sancho. That will enable that fourth player to be fresh coming off the bench and create chaos.

We also need a DM to help out Matic, who is fantastic when fit but when he's exhausted he needs someone to step in for him. That's not Fred or McTominay.

I know this isn't a transfer discussion thread so I won't say anything more on this point, but with quality additions to the squad the tactics that worked when we were fresh 2 weeks ago would work when we bring on quality players in their place. We're not going to have a world class second XI, but we can and really do need to strengthen the squad so that we don't see the precipitous deline in form when we do have to reach deep into the squad.
Interesting when someone said we need a DM. What is the point of having another DM when Ole always start with the same 11 week in week out, in fact 3 games in 8 days. How many game minutes did Fred and McTom have, since Restart? Fred and McTom get games time ONLY when someone is injured or unfit. How many minutes did Williams, Dalot, Bailly get?

That is also true for Rashford and Martial, and much worse for Bruno.

In fact, Greenword starts only because James is exceptionally poor when given opportunity. In fact, under Ole, IMO, only right wing position is vacant, the rest are all occupied, and you have to kick someone out before you can hire.
 

yan man utd

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Since the days of Fergie, we have all noticed that we have had multiple formation changes. With numerous players coming in and going out we have struggled a lot to actually find flow in our gameplay. I have a hard time understanding the way we actually try to play. From the time the keeper gets the ball to how to finds one of the forward players, we don't actually have a pattern of play. I even see smaller teams who actually go out and play as drilled but we never actually go out and really outperform our opponents. Apart from a few players like Pogba, Bruno, Martial, Rashford who when in form can beat players and make things happen, we do not have it all around the pitch as yet. We are always looking for inspiration within the team which sometimes breaks the best of players. For example, I see the difference in how Bruno has been playing the last few games- he hasn't really hit the stride like before yet he's creating chances.

What is the problem? Why aren't we drilled to move in a certain way and deceive opponents? Why aren't all our players confident on the ball?
You’ve hit the nail on the head with this.
I’ve been thinking that it’s almost like when we do well it’s because of the quality of our attack. It’s not exactly like the sum of the parts is greater than the individuals is it? There doesn’t seem to be much synergy and the same flaws keep reappearing - who is going to tell me that West Ham, palace and Southampton in fact Chelsea too have better players than us.
We are not well drilled and we have major problems in the following areas

defensively -
1 winning the ball back quickly enough
2 defending crosses
3 defending against fast players
4 sitting too deep create vast chasms of space between defence and midfield/ attack
5 getting to loose balls first

attack wise -
1 we have 3 lethal attacking players but they are receiving the ball in the wrong areas
2 speed of support from midfield/full backs for the front 3
3 rushed over ambitious forward passes when retention of the possession is more important
4 structure and movement when defence has the ball
5 ball retention in central midfield and over reliance on the technical ability of Rashford and martial and expecting them to keep the ball and continue the attack when surrounded by players.

In addition, Bruno is now giving the ball away too often / misplacing passes and is positioned too far forward and Pogba seems unable to change tempo/ speed of movement. I thought he was unlucky with the penalty - it’s a natural instinct to put your hands up to defend your eyes when faced with a flying object... but he was poor again. He looks isolated and rarely has more than one option for a pass.

I’m curious as to how detailed the coaching is. Are we where we are because of the natural ability of the players despite management? Can we say that it’s because management is getting the best out our players? Can we see a plan /pattern of play? Unfortunately I’m v unsure.

we should have already qualified for CL now we are biting our nails.