Both need to go. Mourinho picked him and you could clearly see against Southampton his head was up his ass. That performance was a disgrace to the supporters. Virus or not he doesnt deserve to be starting for us right now. Other players like Herrera have come in and put in a better shift than him
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Unfortunately, I'm almost certain the likes of Herrera and Rashford won't play, so we're not going to have a team who plays up-tempo or high pressing football. Then Pogba will be blamed (both by Mourinho and by some fans) for us going back to slow boring football.
Exactly the same happened with Martial in the second half of last season. Every time he did play it was with poor line-ups, and inevitably he didn't play well.
Bingo . I can see the likes of McTominay, Fellaini starting as well and if we lose they'll direct their anger at Pogba
That's fine, but this whole singling of Pogba as being the only one that's lazy and that he doesn't have the right mentality to play for United is just an awful take. If you want to make a stand for that sort of thing, at least be consistent. Not saying you aren't, but this whole discussion is centered around Pogba.
I mean just look at this goal. Was Matic not being lazy here when tracking Dybala? Why was he not made an example of? Why didn't the press attack him? There are numerous incidents of this happening and I hear nothing.
But the thing is, attitude is the most important thing for a professional football player, especially one that plays for United. If Pogba sorts this out, he won't have a problem with his manager and some United fans. He will also become the very best midfielder in the world because he is incredibly gifted.
Fully respect your post and arguments you put forward. For me this conversation centers around Pogba because this is the Pogba performance thread. I fully agree there are also other players at the club who have also not performed this season. the problem is Pogba is the most high profile and doesnt help himself either. There are a lot of players who need to be kicked out the club not only Pogba
i'd like to see Pogba given game time in lingard's position with absolute freedom. Let Matic and herrera or fellaini worry about defensive duties. He wont because then the narrative would be that Jose is wrong [Which can never happen]
When I said centered around Pogba, I meant the general narrative that's going around the United fandom recently. It went on overdrive after that 1 awful Pogba performance and Castles' article where Mourinho called him a virus.
It's because of two things. 1 He is our highest profile of player 2. There is massive expectations on him.
That would be fine with me if he kept that same energy with Matic and Lingard, who get by being dreadful game after game.
And he's getting slaughtered for it.
You need to understand just because we're against Pogba, doesn't necessarily make us Mourinho defenders. You need to side with one of them. You can be against both, and I don't see anything in Pogba to warrant the defense for him. As much as Jose, they need to both feck off.
But that has nothing to do with whether he gets picked or not and whether or not he should leave our club. If an underperforming Pogba is still better than 95% of our squad and has played better than 95% of our squad, it doesn't make sense to want him out. But that's where the discussion is these days. It's important to keep perspective when judging players based on their initial expectations.
I know, but you're not helping your case by repeating the same argument we had earlier in this thread. For some reason you think the expectations of Pogba and Pogba underperforming that means he should leave the club when objectively he's been better than 95% of our players this season. It just doesn't make sense and your initial expectations are clouding your squad building senses. Those are two different matters.
And the fans may want Matic out, but I'm not hearing Matic beeing booed by the fans. I probably wouldn't be this vocal over this matter if people were equal in their vitrol towards other players. What I've heard Martial earlier in the season get and Pogba recently is a lot more than I've heard for everyone else who have been crap this season (apart from Fellaini).
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Agreed. He offers too much in the final third for us to not figure out how to use him. The guy can't defend well - fine. Put him in a more advanced position
Well I haven't repeated anything. I was talking about the laziness argument. The poster you early replied on was saying laziness was never accepted here and you said Matic, so I said he's getting slaughtered too. Just because Mourinho favors Matic changes anything. We're not Mourinho, and just because we're against Pogba doesn't make us in Mourinho side and justifying any dumb thing he does like starting Matic every game.
We've tired that though, and it didn't work either.
This is Pogba defence 101; his best position is always the one he is not playing in no matter how long has been spent arguing that he should be playing in the position he is now in.
Left of a midfield three, double pivot or number 10, it doesn't matter. The problem is Pogba and he needs to sort it out.
How people say, better without Pogba are the same ones who will scream out we need a midfielder that can hold under pressure when we are losing. So many knee jerks on this fourm.
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Or at least play him next to guys that fit him better. Have we ever accommodated him? Have we really? His shortcomings as a midfielder seems to be people's reasons for how we've accommodated him, but we really haven't. Certainly not this season when he's being paired by two equally slow players in Matic and Fellaini. Both of whom aren't great at defending and both don't offer that energy Herrera or Vidal provided. None of which offer the passing a proper midfielder gives. None of which can destroy opposition attacks like Kante has. And how is it bad to accommodate him is my question to these fans? It worked for Juve.
You didn't understand what I said. My problem is you're wanting the guy out of our club when everyone else puts in crap performances after crap performances.
Exactly right
Why won't Pogba do the high press then ?
Paul plays for his own ego and a big part of that is impressing his team mates. At juve he was inferior to many in the club based on stature and in France he was obviously driven by a WC but also busting quality around him. At United since Ibra left he is top dog with no incentive to try. It is a horrible characteristic but one he has no doubt about that.
The performance today triggers a flame in him to remind his teammates he actually is better than everyone there. He will blast Valencia away and then start Liverpool.
It is so predictable. However this cycle will go on unfortunately. This is why you will never get 100% from him in a whole season unless he feels there is something to drive his personal ego.
Enjoy him while he’s trying but put him in the dog house when he’s not, simple. If you don’t like it, ship him off for free like Sir Alex did.
The performance today triggers a flame in him to remind his teammates he actually is better than everyone there. He will blast Valencia away and then start Liverpool.
It is so predictable. However this cycle will go on unfortunately. This is why you will never get 100% from him in a whole season unless he feels there is something to drive his personal ego.
Enjoy him while he’s trying but put him in the dog house when he’s not, simple. If you don’t like it, ship him off for free like Sir Alex did.
Don't you get it, only Matic is allowed to be criticised for being slow and laborious. Pogba does not need to work hard for the team cos he's talented and that. The Martial comparison is quite fitting really, another player that gets excused by fans for not working hard just because he's talented.
David Beckham had the best right foot on the planet, and would run himself into the ground most games. Working for the team is the bare minimum.
Or some of us understand his shortcomings and the best part of his game outweighs that.
I don't get it, he might have a few assists, but his laziness has cost us games and when we are down or needed to show urgency, the way he stands around makes me want to punch him. Lack of ability is one thing, but lack of desire to play for the team shows unprofessionalism. I can be unhappy with my manager or team, but I still have to do my job for which I'm paid to. You look at the likes Rashford, maybe doesn't have the same talent but shows the right attitude to work for United crust. Mou is and can continue to be at fault, but that's upto the management to correct. As a player he has to follow instructions and show desire to be hisx best despite his circumstances, that's called professionalism.
Just my bit.
well, as much as I like him but right now I think our team play better without him. today all players looked having more passion and spirit. quite interesting how Jose will choose his line up against valencia & pool, will he start Pogba or not. hmmmmm
Although I agree that a player for a team like united should have certain flexibility in terms of attitude and willingness to adapt to situations, there is a trend to this offensive against Pogba. Agree he had a horrible game against Saints, but when he is in form he is a world class player. Lingard in world class form will probably match what Pogba can do. So give Pogba game time as a #10. Not one game, give him enough games. Lingard has been doing nothing for the past few games and he gets a start no matter what! that's not logic that's prejudice
Tell me then, what have the club done for Pogba? He's here to win trophies but we're not offering him that; we're now insulting him because an imbecile of a manager scapegoated him to mask his own incompetence.
What about Lukaku and Matic then? Even Mourinho has shown his laziness by voluntarily sabotaging our season to satisfy his ego and I don't hear OT booing him.
I can't get it you think he's lazy, but throwing insults and calling him a virus doesn't stand right for me consider the fact he has been our best player since he came back; he's always plays the way he's playing here, we knew it before we bring him back, Mourinho also knew it so why did he decide to go for him?
Juve fans didn't have a problem with his laziness, only deluded United fans thinks that this club is special than everything in football. Never seen a fan base calling their own star player "a virus".
There come a time when you no longer give a feck about a job, especially when your manager is singling you out in public and calling you a virus. Not the 1st time Mourinho attacks Pogba in public; how can you feel the need to motivate yourself for a manager and fans who're calling you a virus and booing you?
I wouldn't blame him if put in a transfer request, he deserves better.
I don't get your hatred toward him.
Did you watch the Chelsea vs City game? Pressing is a team game, one player can't press and be effective, you need your teammates to be in sync.
And the way we're pressing we'll be exposed against a better team. Arsenal where just not in top of their form but they were getting out of our press without much difficulties, and Fulham were just sh*t. If we press like this we'll get exposed against Liverpool; hope Mourinho is aware of this and use his old effective "Park the bus" system. And also we were not prepared to play these high pressing games, so we'll tire soon, especially with the busy festive period coming.
I don't pick sides in this. I just know what I expect from players. Pogba is sticking out like a sore thumb. I can't just go ahead and blame his boss for that.
The tactics today would have suited Pogba down to the ground. Jose was on the touchline forcing the back four past the halfway line into Fulhams half. This meant we squeezed them high in their half and won the ball back consistently in the first half. I've never seen Jose do this before, not forcing the team up the pitch. He could've done it against many teams we've played at home this season.
I've a feeling Jose did this for two reasons :-
1. Because Fulham are awful
2. To give the impression we are better without Pogba and that Pogba needs to adapt to play like the rest of the team, the reality being the rest of the team don't play like that every week.
I've a feeling Jose did this for two reasons :-
1. Because Fulham are awful
2. To give the impression we are better without Pogba and that Pogba needs to adapt to play like the rest of the team, the reality being the rest of the team don't play like that every week.
Best Pogba game. 0 passes failed. lot of effort. Never gave up. Good positionement and i can say his game reading today was really excellent
My point is rather that in defence of Pogba most of his fans throw out the idea that he has to play in one very specific position in order to perform and that the team should be built around whatever that position is in order for there to be expectations that he might perform well. That position has, for most of his United career, been the left of midfield three with two players doing the dogs' work for him. Play him there, the argument goes, and you'll see the 'real Pogba'. So we played him there, and we saw the exact same Pogba we saw when we played him in a double pivot – a talented, but frustratingly inconsistent player who appears to only play when he wants to.
Now, the argument goes, that obviously playing him in a midfield three with two players doing his defensive work for him is still asking too much of him and he should be played in, er, a midfield three with two players doing his defensive work for him but slightly further up the pitch. That's the genius solution that will solve all of Pogba's problems now, apparently, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that, like a late career Rooney, his 'best' position is always the one he's not playing in. Nor, apparently, is the argument undermined by the fact that we saw him play as a 10 fairly frequently in the first half of his first season, and he came across as a talented, but frustratingly inconsistent player who appears to only play when he wants to – then I believe the excuse was he was playing too far forward and he needed open space to run in to.
In the meantime, of course, Pogba won the World Cup playing pretty well in the same position in a double pivot that all his fans had spent 2 years saying he could not be expected to play well in.
At a certain point, we have to admit the simple fact that we've tried all the various formation tweaks we can to fit Pogba in to the side, and none of them have shaken the overall pattern of performances. Now yes, maybe Pogba's not helped by the poor movement of our attacking players (then again, I'm not sure the attacking players' movement is helped by the midfielders' unpredictability in terms of releasing the ball), yes maybe another manager may be able to coax more out of him, and yes maybe he's better at one very specific role than another (which would hardly be a surprise; for what it is worth, I think people are right about the midfield three with Pogba on the left). But, also, there's a point we've reached now where Pogba simply has to grow up. He's a 25 year old, supposedly world class midfielder – it shouldn't be unreasonable to think that he should be able to produce consistent performances, work rate, and attitude in whichever one of the three positions he has shown some aptitude for being able to play in.
Do you see Pogba pressing like Herrera if they play together ? Yes or no ? I just want one straight answer.
Do you see Herrera going into double figures in assists and being the main creative spark and outlet down the middle?
I am worried because it's first it's meaningless game so the team will of course not be fired up as much as they were these last games. Secondly as the poster mentioned Martial after Sanchez arrived was never given a proper chance iin a proper line up . Once you're dropped under Mourinho it's a long way back . Unless your name is Lukaku
Its simple for Pogba really;
Go to Valencia, play well, give 100%, keep it simple and you’re more than likely back in the team sunday at Anfield.
Go to Valencia, play well, give 100%, keep it simple and you’re more than likely back in the team sunday at Anfield.
There's something called the whole unit being bigger than the sums of their part. You can have a midfielder with double figures but everyone else struggling thanks to him being a passenger off the ball, and you can have a midfield that looks average on paper but thanks to them doing a proper midfield job and supporting them with a good attacking unit, the team ranks more results than the first one with loads of goals and assists. Funny enough, we used to be like that with SAF and you can look at how Liverpool improved after selling Coutinho even though their team now lacks a creator midfield, they look better, more balanced, and bigger than the sum of their players.
Pogba is a midfielder. I want to see a proper midfielder job, that's all.
Does Matic ?
No, that's why I want him dropped.
Again people can't differentiate between criticizing Pogba and being against Mourinho or Matic. There's some universal law here that you need to either be on Pogba's side or Mourinho's one. No possibility of being a normal fan talking about a player here, nope, you criticize Pogba, then you want Mourinho to stay and Matic to play.
Said 3 times today I want to see Herrera as a DMF and Fred as a box to box with same attacking lineup as today instead of Sanchez and Martial in for Lukaku and Lingard. This team will have a proper midfield and good quality up front, we need to give a try.
If we want to play Pogba he should be a number 10 or 9.5 instead of Mata. Keep him away from the midfield, him and Fellaini. They're both more suited to be thrown upfront than in the middle of the park, that or bench them.
Just because I'm saying that doesn't mean I want Matic starting, how's that hard for anyone to understand ?
Fair enough. Seems like you’re willing to sacrifice Ability for pressure. I’d like to have seen Pogba today play in the tactics we played. I think it would suit him better. We usually sit as a team. That’s tactics though.
Once upon a time there was a guy called Martial who was lazy and not good enough (I myself was guilty of thinking this), he was slated by Jose and a certain amount of fans turned against him. Roll on the following season and he's by far our best attacker and has shown that he never should have been dropped. Pogba has been our best player in a lot of games this season. He has outperformed Matic for 99% of the season and is a far more talented player to boot. How about Jose actually drops the players that have been the worst performing this year.
Can anyone actually say that Pogba has been worse than Matic, Lukaku and Lingard so far this season? Also why not drop him without bashing him publicly so much? Matic has looked better with Herrera next to him but why haven't we seen Herrera next to Pogba while Matic has been stinking the place up for so long?
Can anyone actually say that Pogba has been worse than Matic, Lukaku and Lingard so far this season? Also why not drop him without bashing him publicly so much? Matic has looked better with Herrera next to him but why haven't we seen Herrera next to Pogba while Matic has been stinking the place up for so long?
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