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2019-20 Performances


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Cassidy

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Erickson
Anderson
Moura
Sigurdson
Silva
Antonio
Brooks

The list goes on
Ok so these are CMs now... cool story
The only CM in your list is Silva (David?) and he didn't outscore Pogba
 

Adam-Utd

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Erickson
Anderson
Moura
Sigurdson
Silva
Antonio
Brooks

The list goes on
Nice list of central midfielders there, doing a real great job of proving me wrong!
 

fergiesarmy1

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Ok so these are CMs now... cool story
The only CM in your list is Silva (David?) and he didn't outscore Pogba
We are talking about midfielders from open play so he did.

Let’s put it this way if I’m buying a player and the agent is telling me they scored 20 goals last season the first thing I want to know is how many weren’t fecking penalties.
 

Jeppers7

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We are talking about midfielders from open play so he did.

Let’s put it this way if I’m buying a player and the agent is telling me they scored 20 goals last season the first thing I want to know is how many weren’t fecking penalties.
So you think it's fair to compare Midfielder to winger ? You expected Butt or Keane to score the same amount of goals to Giggs or Beckham ?
 

Cassidy

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We are talking about midfielders from open play so he did.

Let’s put it this way if I’m buying a player and the agent is telling me they scored 20 goals last season the first thing I want to know is how many weren’t fecking penalties.
I think you should maybe ask @Adam-Utd what he meant by his question, you probably got the wrong end of the stick
 

izzydiggler

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So you think it's fair to compare Midfielder to winger ? You expected Butt or Keane to score the same amount of goals to Giggs or Beckham ?
It was in response to the question "What other midfielder had more?"...no mention of central midfield at all, so a legitimate answer.

You get this a lot on here when debating about Pogba - just constant deflections/excuses rather than addressing the criticisms.
 

Cassidy

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It was in response to the question "What other midfielder had more?"...no mention of central midfield at all, so a legitimate answer.

You get this a lot on here when debating about Pogba - just constant deflections/excuses rather than addressing the criticisms.
I'm pretty sure you know full well the context.

No excuses though I don't think he has had a good start to the season at all, however you don't need to make odd comparisons to show that.

He has a good goal scoring record for a CM, is the other parts of his game that has been an issue.

Consistency, not giving away posession cheaply, work rate and defensive awareness
 

fergiesarmy1

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So you think it's fair to compare Midfielder to winger ? You expected Butt or Keane to score the same amount of goals to Giggs or Beckham ?
What’s next do we work out how many minutes Rashford plays on the wing versus through the middle to justify his stats?
 

Jeppers7

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It was in response to the question "What other midfielder had more?"...no mention of central midfield at all, so a legitimate answer.

You get this a lot on here when debating about Pogba - just constant deflections/excuses rather than addressing the criticisms.
Right...so it's a deflection to suggest wingers attack more than CM or DCM ?

The issue is more that irrational people ignore context.
 

Cassidy

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The worst part is you have enough ammunition to criticise Pogba, you don't need to go to great lengths to ignore context
 

roonster09

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What’s next do we work out how many minutes Rashford plays on the wing versus through the middle to justify his stats?
That's how it is done. You can't compare a winger to a CF and blame winger for not scoring as many goals. If you are comparing, it should be between players who plays in same position.
 

He'sRaldo

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I remember in Pogba's first season, people were adamant that he shouldn't be judged on goals and assists, as he was a CM. After all this time, it's finally happened and everyone has accepted it.

His numbers are being scrutinized and compared with strikers and wingers. That's the level central midfielder Paul Pogba is being held to.
 

Sterling Archer

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Just saw a replay of an old Leicester goal against the WBrom:
Mahrez sends one over the top to Vardy, at the edge of the box, who let's the ball come over the defender and across him before volleying it into the far corner with his left.

1. Pogba doesn't have that kind of target striker.
2. It would be nice to have other players in midfield capable of hitting balls of the same caliber and not just rely on one player

 

fergiesarmy1

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Probably, if your scrutinising a players stats to suit your agenda maybe not.
It’s you guys that brought in comparison to other midfielders (that apparently have to play the exact same position which is ridiculous as Pogba has played many positions and most of them not very well)

My argument is simple 5 goals from open play (4 1/2 if we are counting rebounding a shit penalty) and 9 assists in a season for a £100 million pound player is not impressive in the slightest to me. To carry off the circus he brings to town he needs to be doing a lot more than that to justify it all.
 

Adam-Utd

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It’s you guys that brought in comparison to other midfielders (that apparently have to play the exact same position which is ridiculous as Pogba has played many positions and most of them not very well)

My argument is simple 5 goals from open play (4 1/2 if we are counting rebounding a shit penalty) and 9 assists in a season for a £100 million pound player is not impressive in the slightest to me. To carry off the circus he brings to town he needs to be doing a lot more than that to justify it all.
If he was under performing compared to his team mates or league rivals then I'd agree, but he isn't.

He's matching the top players in the league and playing in a team that's struggling. Put Pogba in the City team and put De Bruyne in ours, I doubt you'd see much difference.

Nobody is arguing Pogba doesn't make mistakes, but what player doesn't?. I guarantee if he played for a rival you'd all be seeing things very differently.
 

Full bodied red

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If he was under performing compared to his team mates or league rivals then I'd agree, but he isn't.

He's matching the top players in the league and playing in a team that's struggling. Put Pogba in the City team and put De Bruyne in ours, I doubt you'd see much difference.

Nobody is arguing Pogba doesn't make mistakes, but what player doesn't?. I guarantee if he played for a rival you'd all be seeing things very differently.

But you've been arguing that his ' problem ' is that he is playing in a poor team with poor team mates.

I'll argue that none of our rivals who are curently better than us ( Citeh, Dippers, Spurs at a pinch ) would have him in place of their own MFs. So he's going to have to go to another so-so team no better than us - which apparently means he won't be much good there either.

On the other hand, I'm all OK about seeing Pogba play for one of our rivals rather than for us. In fact, I'd feel really good about it. But it isn't going to happen unless, like Sanchez, we give him away cause Woodward's having one of his usual deluded moments if he thinks he's ever going to recuperate £90+ million, even with the stupid prices we've seen this summer.
 

fergiesarmy1

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If he was under performing compared to his team mates or league rivals then I'd agree, but he isn't.

He's matching the top players in the league and playing in a team that's struggling. Put Pogba in the City team and put De Bruyne in ours, I doubt you'd see much difference.

Nobody is arguing Pogba doesn't make mistakes, but what player doesn't?. I guarantee if he played for a rival you'd all be seeing things very differently.
Pretty sure de bruyne would have scored more than none since February 18th.
 

Jimmy_Bond

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But somehow it's the player's fault for not living up to the expectations.
You've either misinterpreted or you're being obtuse. Much in the same way as Chelsea didn't get the player they thought they were getting when they signed Torres.

I know what Pogba is supposed to bring, but he doesn't. Most overhyped player I've seen in the history of me watching the club, which is more than 25 years now. Others will undoubtedly have the same opinion stretching a longer time span.
 

roonster09

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You've either misinterpreted or you're being obtuse. Much in the same way as Chelsea didn't get the player they thought they were getting when they signed Torres.

I know what Pogba is supposed to bring, but he doesn't. Most overhyped player I've seen in the history of me watching the club, which is more than 25 years now. Others will undoubtedly have the same opinion stretching a longer time span.
Going by the post, you don't know what he brings. I would have believed had you said you copied that from Sourness article. "he has physicality, so he should be running up and down" sort of sums it up.
 

Jimmy_Bond

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Not many players better than Pogba that'll be happy to join a Europa League team unfortunately.

We might be stuck with that.
There's plenty of players who want to join United, don't worry about that. We've never had any problems attracting players historically, and we've been in more dire straits than we are now.

The club has lost its identity on and off the pitch. Pogba does not represent anything about the club I grew up watching, neither on or off the pitch. He's apart of the problem.. overhyped player who cares more about himself than the club.
 

romufc

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I'll argue that none of our rivals who are curently better than us ( Citeh, Dippers, Spurs at a pinch ) would have him in place of their own MFs.
Is this your opinion?

I have mates who are Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea fans. They would all take Pogba in their starting line up.
 

Adam-Utd

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But you've been arguing that his ' problem ' is that he is playing in a poor team with poor team mates.

I'll argue that none of our rivals who are curently better than us ( Citeh, Dippers, Spurs at a pinch ) would have him in place of their own MFs. So he's going to have to go to another so-so team no better than us - which apparently means he won't be much good there either.

On the other hand, I'm all OK about seeing Pogba play for one of our rivals rather than for us. In fact, I'd feel really good about it. But it isn't going to happen unless, like Sanchez, we give him away cause Woodward's having one of his usual deluded moments if he thinks he's ever going to recuperate £90+ million, even with the stupid prices we've seen this summer.
You don't think Spurs would have Pogba over Sissoko or Winks?

You don't think Pool would have Pogba over Henderson or Wijnaldum?

City are the only ones with that level of player, but right now? I'd take Pogba over Silva personally.

He'd walk into the Arsenal and Chelsea midfields also. It's ludicrous to think otherwise.
 

roonster09

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You don't think Spurs would have Pogba over Sissoko or Winks?

You don't think Pool would have Pogba over Henderson or Wijnaldum?

City are the only ones with that level of player, but right now? I'd take Pogba over Silva personally.

He'd walk into the Arsenal and Chelsea midfields also. It's ludicrous to think otherwise.

Not surprised - he's a very average player, technically, who usually compensates with his physical presence.

Fellaini revisited, if you wish
:D
 

Jimmy_Bond

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Going by the post, you don't know what he brings. I would have believed had you said you copied that from Sourness article. "he has physicality, so he should be running up and down" sort of sums it up.
Mate, I'm giving opinions. If you disagree, fine, it won't kill you. You act like your opinion is correct and mine is wrong. That's not the case. I don't think Pogba is world class, and I don't think he has even nearly delivered what he should have considering his price tag and reputation.

If you disagree, fine. There room for both opinions. Don't start trying to dig me out with little one liners without giving me any justification for why I'm wrong. You seem to be in the camp of people that believe it's all the factors surrounding him that make him play badly. That's a subjective opinion. I believe here should be no excuses, and if he's so good he should be putting in much better performances than he's shown over three years. Again, it's subjective.

All the sniping on here is pathetic. He's obviously not an unbelievable player who is performing as he should be, otherwise opinions wouldn't be so divided. But people can share theories and opinions as to why this is without being knobs, surely?
 

Full bodied red

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Is this your opinion?

I have mates who are Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea fans. They would all take Pogba in their starting line up.

I have mates who are Stockport County fans, and they wouldn't take him.


The question you need to answer is ' Would the Managers of Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea take him ? ' and I don't believe Toothy and Fatso would touch him with a barge pole.

Spurs might, just, but have just bought potentially better for cheaper.
 

roonster09

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Mate, I'm giving opinions. If you disagree, fine, it won't kill you. You act like your opinion is correct and mine is wrong. That's not the case. I don't think Pogba is world class, and I don't think he has even nearly delivered what he should have considering his price tag and reputation.

If you disagree, fine. There room for both opinions. Don't start trying to dig me out with little one liners without giving me any justification for why I'm wrong. You seem to be in the camp of people that believe it's all the factors surrounding him that make him play badly. That's a subjective opinion. I believe here should be no excuses, and if he's so good he should be putting in much better performances than he's shown over three years. Again, it's subjective.

All the sniping on here is pathetic. He's obviously not an unbelievable player who is performing as he should be, otherwise opinions wouldn't be so divided. But people can share theories and opinions as to why this is without being knobs, surely?
No, I'm not in the camp that blames everyone else. I'm in the camp who can at least think beyond "Pogba is shit". And also in the camp who believes Pogba is very good player who isn't used properly.

Also it's so obvious where the problem is, it's with your expectations and assuming he is like defensively great player.

Given his physical attributes, I expect him to be driving up and down and contributing to attacks and defence by making assists (he does contribute assists from time to time, but again usually in patches, much how James Beattie used to score goals) at one end and be winning the ball back and launching attacks at the other. I expect him to be a leader and a positive influence on the pitch. I expect him to have top class decision making and not be costing us goals by giving the ball away in silly positions. I expect him to have top class positional sense and understand how the shape of the team is affected by his movements. I expect him to drag the team through difficult situations (like when we concede goals away from home when we were leading) by putting himself about and showing composure on the ball and influencing those around him. He does sod all of this, and shows little desire to. This is what the most expensive central midfielder in the world with his supposed attributes should be doing. He should be something apparent to players like Keane, Vieira, Toure and Gerrard in terms of his influence on this team. He's not fit to lace those player's laces.
And then there is no point discussing anything when you see the posts like this.

Pogba was bought in to be a top midfielder. He's never performed like one. In the year we finished second he had Matic (who still resembled the Chelsea version) and Herrera in there with him. Two players of high quality who would do all the dirty work and running. Everything that Pogba needed to shine. He was absolutely fecking shite.
There are people who don't rate Pogba as highly as others, at least they make their points properly and can see what he bring and what he lacks, and on the other hand there are bunch of posters, who can't post beyond "pogba is overrated, shit" posts.
 
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Baneofthegame

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While I find his attitude questionable at times, especially when the game isn’t going his way, how he’s being used this season is wrong.

Great player, but he needs two better central midfielders around him so he can do things he’s good at, rather than having to do a lot of things he’s not so great at.
 

romufc

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I have mates who are Stockport County fans, and they wouldn't take him.


The question you need to answer is ' Would the Managers of Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea take him ? ' and I don't believe Toothy and Fatso would touch him with a barge pole.

Spurs might, just, but have just bought potentially better for cheaper.
Well maybe because they are Stockport County, they are not used to quality players.

Yes, that's why he always starts for France, and thats why Zidane wants him.

That's why Ole said if you have Pogba, you build your team around him.

We can't answer that question because No manager in the Prem who is doing well will say I want a rivals player...
 

Full bodied red

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Well maybe because they are Stockport County, they are not used to quality players.

Yes, that's why he always starts for France, and thats why Zidane wants him.

That's why Ole said if you have Pogba, you build your team around him.

We can't answer that question because No manager in the Prem who is doing well will say I want a rivals player...


There's a whole thread on here that is debating whether Ole really is good enough himself.

His utter reliance on and loyalty to Pogba seems stranger and stranger with each passing week's very average to poor display from him on the pitch and each passing week's shout out from his brother or his agent or his friend or his boot sponsor or his hairderesser or his arse wiper....

Perhaps a whole new thread could be who'll leave the sooner - Ole or Pogba.

I would have thought that Jose M would have lasted longer than Pogba, but he didn't. And if he couldn't, I don't rate Ole's chances very high....
 

Jimmy_Bond

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No, I'm not in the camp that blames everyone else. I'm in the camp who can at least think beyond "Pogba is shit". And also in the camp who believes Pogba is very good player who isn't used properly.

Also it's so obvious where the problem is, it's with your expectations and assuming he is like defensively great player.



And then there is no point discussing anything when you see the posts like this.



There are people who don't rate Pogba as highly as others, at least they make their points properly and can see what he bring and what he lacks, and on the other hand there are bunch of posters, who can't post beyond "pogba is overrated, shit" posts.
Nice one. So you're opinion is so much more valid and accurate than others that you can't even be bothered talking to them about it.

I've written paragraphs and paragraphs on what I think about Pogba. If you want to isolate tiny fragments to suit your approach and rebuttal style, feel free. You've said absolutely nothing to make me think differently, which I'm more than willing to do. One thing you've highlighted is me criticising his positional sense. I think his positional sense is awful to be honest, as if he's not being coached properly from a young age. Why don't tell me why I'm wrong? His lack of positional sense is why Fergie didn't fancy him, isn't it?

Don't don't get too high up on your high horse mate, it's a long way down.
 

roonster09

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Nice one. So you're opinion is so much more valid and accurate than others that you can't even be bothered talking to them about it.

I've written paragraphs and paragraphs on what I think about Pogba. If you want to isolate tiny fragments to suit your approach and rebuttal style, feel free. You've said absolutely nothing to make me think differently, which I'm more than willing to do. One thing you've highlighted is me criticising his positional sense. I think his positional sense is awful to be honest, as if he's not being coached properly from a young age. Why don't tell me why I'm wrong? His lack of positional sense is why Fergie didn't fancy him, isn't it?

Don't don't get too high up on your high horse mate, it's a long way down.
Is it? Or is it because he thought he wasn't ready at that time.

Of course his positional sense, defensive awareness is not good, if you rate him based on that he will never be good enough. On the other hand, he creates so many chances, completes so many take ons and has very good attacking record for a player who plays deep. It's all about team and striking balance. If you rate Kante on his attacking game, he will be awful.If you rate Iniesta on his ability to track runners he won't be one of the best midfielders of his generation.

He isn't midfield general like Keane, Vieira. He is attack oriented player and people expect him to be defensively good just because he has physicality when his strength was always his technical ability. People want Pogba to be something he isn't, they assume him to some midfield general when he isn't and never will be.

You have to strike the balance in the team. Even Modric, Kroos midfield needed someone like Casemiro to take that midfield to next level.

Now tell me, how many defensive minded player are criticized for their lack of attacking game?
 

izzydiggler

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Is it? Or is it because he thought he wasn't ready at that time.

Of course his positional sense, defensive awareness is not good, if you rate him based on that he will never be good enough. On the other hand, he creates so many chances, completes so many take ons and has very good attacking record for a player who plays deep. It's all about team and striking balance. If you rate Kante on his attacking game, he will be awful.If you rate Iniesta on his ability to track runners he won't be one of the best midfielders of his generation.

He isn't midfield general like Keane, Vieira. He is attack oriented player and people expect him to be defensively good just because he has physicality when his strength was always his technical ability. People want Pogba to be something he isn't, they assume him to some midfield general when he isn't and never will be.

You have to strike the balance in the team. Even Modric, Kroos midfield needed someone like Casemiro to take that midfield to next level.

Now tell me, how many defensive minded player are criticized for their lack of attacking game?
This is Pogba’s problem in a nutshell. He isn’t a general, he can’t hold, he’s not disciplined and he can’t dictate play for the centre of the park. But play him further up the field in apparently his best position and he’s nowhere near the level of players like a Salah, De Bruyne, Hazard when he was here...it’s not even close.

In short, I’m not really sure that Pogba excels in any area - a talented all-rounder with big flaws but can produce great moments but the full package has been a huge disappointment. Vastly overrated for me. People think he’ll go to Madrid and we’ll see how good he really is...I think the opposite and the Madrid fans will absolutely crucify him there.
 

Jimmy_Bond

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Is it? Or is it because he thought he wasn't ready at that time.

Of course his positional sense, defensive awareness is not good, if you rate him based on that he will never be good enough. On the other hand, he creates so many chances, completes so many take ons and has very good attacking record for a player who plays deep. It's all about team and striking balance. If you rate Kante on his attacking game, he will be awful.If you rate Iniesta on his ability to track runners he won't be one of the best midfielders of his generation.

He isn't midfield general like Keane, Vieira. He is attack oriented player and people expect him to be defensively good just because he has physicality when his strength was always his technical ability. People want Pogba to be something he isn't, they assume him to some midfield general when he isn't and never will be.

You have to strike the balance in the team. Even Modric, Kroos midfield needed someone like Casemiro to take that midfield to next level.

Now tell me, how many defensive minded player are criticized for their lack of attacking game?
I disagree that Kante's attacking game is poor. Obviously it's outweighed by his defensive game, but it's certainly good enough that he can join attacks and contribute positively whilst scoring the odd goal. Pogba's defensive game is so inexistent it makes him a liability defensively. Pogba is better going forward, but he's still not exactly good enough to compensate for the inadequacies in other aspects of his game. He's not the kind of player to whom you say "you just stay up top and don't worry about getting back because you provide so much magic and so many goals and assists."

He's a central midfielder. In my opinion his all around game is nowhere near good enough to put him amongst the world's best in that position. He's a bit of an anomaly. He isn't quite good enough at his main strength to justify the team carrying him, and his inability to do other sides of the game that a central midfielder generally does stop him from being incredibly influential in games. He should be developing the other sides of his game to make himself more complete. He doesn't seem to be doing this. It appears to me that his attitude is "this is what I'm good at, if you ask me to do the other stuff I'll do it but I'll do it badly as I'm not good at it."

I don't think he'll ever be the star player of a top club, nor be indispensable. If we're happy to say we overpaid and expected too much for him and therefor lower expectations, then fine. But I'm not willing to accept that he's some misused superstar who would be starring in a different team.
 

roonster09

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This is Pogba’s problem in a nutshell. He isn’t a general, he can’t hold, he’s not disciplined and he can’t dictate play for the centre of the park. But play him further up the field in apparently his best position and he’s nowhere near the level of players like a Salah, De Bruyne, Hazard when he was here...it’s not even close.

In short, I’m not really sure that Pogba excels in any area - a talented all-rounder with big flaws but can produce great moments but the full package has been a huge disappointment. Vastly overrated for me. People think he’ll go to Madrid and we’ll see how good he really is...I think the opposite and the Madrid fans will absolutely crucify him there.
So he isn't scoring as many as goal scoring wide forwards/attacking mids.

Since Pogba moved to PL, he played 96 games, same as KdB. Pogba contributed to 49 goals, KdB contributed to 58 goals. One played for by far the best team in the league and other played for defensive managers.

KdB played for a team with so many players making runs all the game and Pogba played in a static team. Also KdB played as attacking midfielder, Pogba played as deeper midfielder.

He isn't midfield general, he is creative mid who creates chances. Not as good as KdB but there aren't many better than him.
 

JPRouve

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Is it? Or is it because he thought he wasn't ready at that time.

Of course his positional sense, defensive awareness is not good, if you rate him based on that he will never be good enough. On the other hand, he creates so many chances, completes so many take ons and has very good attacking record for a player who plays deep. It's all about team and striking balance. If you rate Kante on his attacking game, he will be awful.If you rate Iniesta on his ability to track runners he won't be one of the best midfielders of his generation.

He isn't midfield general like Keane, Vieira. He is attack oriented player and people expect him to be defensively good just because he has physicality when his strength was always his technical ability. People want Pogba to be something he isn't, they assume him to some midfield general when he isn't and never will be.

You have to strike the balance in the team. Even Modric, Kroos midfield needed someone like Casemiro to take that midfield to next level.

Now tell me, how many defensive minded player are criticized for their lack of attacking game?
Pretty much and if people don't want that type of midfielders it should be totally fine, they just don't need to make up some nonsense argument. Pogba has never been a complete midfielder, he has never been a game manager that plays it simple and make things tick. He is a player that can provide a spark at any moment and he does it often enough, I said it before and I will always say it, Pogba is the definition of a luxury player. I don't say it as a criticism because I like these players but they are not the backbone of your team, they are the difference between a good and a great team while having little effect on a poor team.

The issue with that type of players is that they rely a lot on their teammates to exploit what they create which requires a certain level of ability. And sometimes it simply doesn't work, just look at Veron or a better playmaker like Riquelme.