Fred and Lingard have far less credit than Pogba on this team, he's easily outperformed the both of them overall.
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I honestly don't care about that, it's about what happens right now and what is best for the team.
Yes, but it's important not to have recency bias either. United hasn't been good with Lingard or Fred consistently enough to consider it the winning formula.
Edit: Just to be clear though, I would like to keep Fred and try Pogba with Fred and McTominay. Lingard can come off the bench, I think it's crazy to keep Pogba on the bench for a Lingard, or anyone else that's not McTominay and maybe Fred if he keeps up his recent performances.
Ideally, Pogba would come in for Lingard, of course. My point is that he needs to show the desire to play that role as the current system requires it. I don't think we have to be tweaking the formation to suit it to Pogba again, do you?
Good response, thanks. Also, I’m not sure what official update you would have wanted to hear. The last ‘official update’ 6 months ago was not even an official update in itself! Since then, you may have missed other updates about us planning contract talks with him, so it hasn’t exactly been ‘nothing’ since then. And him wanting to leave is one thing, him faking an injury for 3 months is another entirely. You’re proposing that, despite knowing that he’s faking an injury, his manager continues to speak glowingly about how he can’t wait to have him back, and that he’ll be straight back in the team when he’s fit. You’re also proposing that he’s still welcome around Carrington with his teammates in training, taking photos and vids in the gym for the teammates he refuses to play alongside too. And lastly, you’re also proposing that he’s turning up to Old Trafford and cheering on these same teammates and celebrating their goals. The idea that he’s faking it is outrageous to me. And again, there’s the fact that he came back from this so-called pretend injury to play a League Cup game against 3rd tier opposition alongside the kids.I see no updates on his future except posturing via media from Madrid, but then again I haven't really been following this closely. Last I heard was that Perez didn't want to pay more than 50 million Euros which is a joke obviously. Other than that, nothing. That leads me to go on the last offical update, which was from the horse's mouth. Okay, he didn't say he was unhappy per se, but not many players do, just like many wont hand in a transfer request, in fear of losing various bonuses etc. Yes, I get that everything here is conjecture at the end of the day, yet we can read between the lines and try to understand what the player is thinking/feeling. It's much more likely that he still wants to leave. The fact that he made a comment 6 months ago, along with Riola, who said that he wanted to move as well, could yet be more proof that nothing has changed and he still wants to go. That's what I believe, personally.
If he does return, and start putting performances for us, then I'll have absolutely no problem in admitting that he was just injured and there was nothing untoward. Again, I hope I'm wrong, and he stays, but personally, I think he'll go. If he signs a new deal, I won't give two fecks about it to be honest, he's put in a few dreadful performances for us, but I've never questioned his attitude, so he can be as greedy as he likes so long as he largely remains the same player for us. I had no problem with Keane, Rio, Rooney and De Gea doing it. Players know their worth and good on them. So you won't find me saving face just to try to come off as I was right all along on an internet forum. Made a dick out myself plenty of times on here, so theres hardly anything left to save.
Again, to your last paragraph, I cheer for every United player, less so than I used to but I guess I just got older and got less attached to them. I do, however, want us to have the best players, the best managers, the best infrastructure and so on, in order to have the best chance to compete domestically and in Europe more so -- I always believed we should have had at least a couple more European Cups -- so of course someone of Pogba's quality would be big help on the pitch, and indeed off it -- as he would attract players himself, who'd want to play alongside him. I absolutely do not want for Pogba to leave, but if he had decided to leave, and is adamant about it -- cut him loose (with best deal possible, whether it be cash or player + cash) and use the money to rebuild. Now, I believe he that he has decided to leave. Is it conjecture -- well, of course it is, but it is a probable outcome at this point. I mean, if he had a change of heart then, we'd almost certainly would have heard by now. Yes, yes more conjecture..
Why can’t he just be injured? Because he said it could be time for a new challenge a few months back? This wouldn’t be the first new challenge of his career if he moved. He’s moved clubs before and has never gone on strike. He also said what he said at the beginning of a summer transfer window, and did not agitate at all to force a move in the 3 month window that followed. Even in the face of a bid from Real. It’s a massively far-fetched theory, one that no media are even bothered with, and they would be on this long before you. There’s not even any growing speculation from Spain or Italy that their leading clubs are planning to buy Pogba in about 3 weeks. It’s just a big insult of character that is quite a stretch if you ask me.
That said, I respect your points in your post, and don’t think we’re as far apart in our views on this matter tbh. Ultimately, if he wants to leave, let him go. But there’s been no sign of ‘adamant’ the way it’s spoken of on here. Not to the degree where everyone here is writing ‘he’s definitely gone in January’ and ‘deal is probably already agreed’ etc. There’s been not even the slightest media suggestion that a deal is even on the cards let alone agreed for one of the highest profile players in the game. There would be.
Any ETA on his return? Can't wait to see McFredPog!
He's supposed to return playing this month but we don't know when exactly.
Thanks.
With all due respect, it's not about tweaking the formation to suit Pogba, but to utilize everyone's talent and hiding our weakness. Ideally, Pogba should play as a no. 8 mainly responsible for bringing the ball from back to front and making long passes, with a creative no. 10 in front of him (refer to #3557). However, we really lack a quality attacking midfielder at the moment, with Lingard and Mata being disappointing most of the time, while Fred and McTominay's performance is not that bad. That's the reason why Pogba is coming in for Lingard or Mata, but not playing at the more familiar role replacing Fred or McTominay.
I've said the 'play Pogba in the 10 position' a lot but in general and as others have mentioned, his best position is playing as an '8'. So really OGS should be looking to integrate him in a flat midfield free with obviously more freedom. He's at his best facing the goal, on the ball, in transition and with space ahead of him. Last year there was so much emphasis on 'play Pogba higher up the pitch' and 'free Pogba' that at times, I felt he was far too forward almost playing like a 2nd striker. After that amazing initial run, it was clear we didn't have the quality or set up to get him the ball higher up the pitch and his game was being rendered useless.
Now it could still work as we have McFred, who have the energy and nous to play it to his feet but I'd still want him to be half dictating tempo/half being creative and taking players on. Martial dropping to link up with James and Rashford hugging the wings.
Now it could still work as we have McFred, who have the energy and nous to play it to his feet but I'd still want him to be half dictating tempo/half being creative and taking players on. Martial dropping to link up with James and Rashford hugging the wings.
*McFrog.
Not a bad shout, especially as all 3 of Fred, Scott, and Pogba are comfortable further forward, as well as further back. The only problem is the pressing patterns currently being worked would be disrupted as there's no 10 to initiate it.
Still intrigued to see how long it takes him to find his form when he returns from injury
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Been almost two and a half months since he played for us. I miss watching him pull out a PogPass from out of thin air. Hope he's back soon.
Why do people want him to play in a specific place, is he one dimensional, we have gradually got a team formation which is suitable for the entire team.
When Pogba will come back, he will most certainly take Lingard's place in the line up, I am pretty sure he will elevate the performance of the team, he is not your regular ball park player who can play in only one set up, he has shown often that he can adapt to different positions.
Most importantly, whether we have faith in him or not, ole has faith in him.
He will come back into our starting 11.
I am excited for his come back
When Pogba will come back, he will most certainly take Lingard's place in the line up, I am pretty sure he will elevate the performance of the team, he is not your regular ball park player who can play in only one set up, he has shown often that he can adapt to different positions.
Most importantly, whether we have faith in him or not, ole has faith in him.
He will come back into our starting 11.
I am excited for his come back
I've missed basically everything he provides, he may be inconsistent but he's a hell of a player when on form, plus I've managed to completely convince myself that he's the missing piece of the puzzle for our team this season.
With Pogba and Martial as our two most furthest and central players that's going to be a tall ask
. However, I hope this means we will be able to dominate possession better and break down teams with more nous. That is something that is inevitably as we transition into a team that wants the ball from the get go.There's a difference between being given possession (think of all the Wolves games) and actually dominating and suffocating the opposition. With McFred, we should be able to stiffle teams if they try to counter us but then have Pogba create the openings with more one-touch play with the front three.
One thing I look forward to him is seeing him back at set pieces or possibly on the end of some crosses.
Im okay with Rashford & Martial not being that type of forwards - but we do then really need a robust all action midfielder who can header a goal, score from long distance - basically perform the way Pogba did against City a couple seasons back.
Alot has been said about Pogba wanting to move & if he does fair enough - but honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't move & he loves this club for being his club he grew up with & never really inclines to leave. He doesn't get the slightly overrated attention he gets here at United & to be fair I'd be more than happy to continue to give to him as long as he doesn't kick a fuss.
Im okay with Rashford & Martial not being that type of forwards - but we do then really need a robust all action midfielder who can header a goal, score from long distance - basically perform the way Pogba did against City a couple seasons back.
Alot has been said about Pogba wanting to move & if he does fair enough - but honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't move & he loves this club for being his club he grew up with & never really inclines to leave. He doesn't get the slightly overrated attention he gets here at United & to be fair I'd be more than happy to continue to give to him as long as he doesn't kick a fuss.
Pogba is not defensively robust enough to play alongside a midfielder even further forward (or worse defensively) than him. It would be an absolutely miserable time for the defense minded bloke in midfield. The only way to make that work would be to have a manager like Pep who monopolises the ball and creates less burden on the defenders.
For me he's not an 8 as he's not a really proper central midfielder who is involved in the nitty gritty midfield work. He's either the most attacking of a central three or a 10. Someone suggested that he's an 8 as long as we have Mctominay and Fred as the other two. That's fine. But Pogba and another attacking midfielder is asking for trouble. You need a certain kind or quality of manager to make that work.
I see your point, and you're not the first who raises Pogba's defensive issue. However, I think Pogba did well as a central midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 setting. He has played at that role for numerous times, such as the first two seasons at United and France, and the defence coped with it just fine. Herrera had his best time playing alongside Pogba, while France lifted the World Cup. So it is quite a debate whether playing Pogba there is that miserable or troublesome.
We were wildly inconsistent with him in that midfield two. It was fine against poor teams but anytime we faced anybody with a plan we were outplayed, and France/international football is not really the same challenge. Pogba and Kante/Nzonzi were good enough individually to outplay most of the opponents they faced regardless of setup.
Pogba needs to be in a flat 3 with freedom to roam and two hardworking CMs to cover his runs and get the ball to him in space. He's always been at his best like that. He's not good enough defensively to play in a two and hes not comfortable enough with his back to goal to play as a 10.
With France , Matuidi on the left makes it possible. As well as being absolutely littered with quality. When Pogba played well for us if I'm not mistaken it was alongside Herrera and Matic. I think he did play in a midfield two under Mourinho early on, or maybe in the season we finished 2nd was it? But it just never feels right to me. He just doesn't react to loose ball, track his man, press etc like a proper CM. Which is why I have never really considered him to be a proper one. For me, you have to have a proper engine room of the team - pressing, ball winning, dictating play etc and then you add Pogba to that who gives you some magic. So ideally I'd have him in front of a Keane/Busquets and Scholes/Xavi
Pogba in front of McFred would be tasty. Really want to see him getting further forward if he's gunna play again this season. It's fine if he starts deep but he needs the freedom to use his unique skill set to its maximum potential.
Still not fit enough even to be on the bench.
I agree that on some occasions (e.g. in big games) we have to put another midfielder to strengthen the midfield. However my point is most of the time, a midfield two is enough to handle most of the league opponents. More importantly, this frees up a space to accomdate an extra attacking midfielder. This on paper helps us break down opponent's defence, which is one of the major problems at the moment.
In 16/17 we got 3 titles; in 17/18 we finished 2nd in the league (highest in post-Fergie era); France lifted the World Cup & 2nd in the Euro. I doubt a side which is wildly inconsistent could get such result. We just need a midfielder with sufficient quality, so that we can outplay most of the opponents like you said.
As mentioned in #3621, you're not the first who raises Pogba's defensive issue. Again, we got one of the best defensive records in 16/17 and 17/18, as compared to other post-Fergie seasons. You may argue that Pogba doesn't have the best defensive awareness and workrate, but on the other hand I don't think he is that poor defensively. Statistically, he had more defensive partcipation than many highly-rated no. 8 such as Yaya Toure.
Very interesting how Ole worded his answer on whether Pogba would go right back into the team when fit. "Pogba will play a lot of games for Untied".
That sounds like a "no" to me.
That sounds like a "no" to me.
A lot of games is no? Well, I suppose Pogba has to show he deserves it. That's fair.
I don´t know, but he used the exact same words when asked about Matic earlier this seasons. He didn´t say e.g. "Yeah, Pogba has been missing for a long time, and it will be great to have him back in the team."
This is the one 'issue' I have with coaches like Mourinho, OGS and others who believe Utd should be able to compete with a midfield two. I agree it can work but it's a short sighted way of playing imo. Every top team in Europe play with a midfield three regardless of the opposition.
Playing a three is more about building for the future because you don't compete against the elite by playing in a two for 80% of the time just to have 'another attacking player' on the pitch against fodder, then expect to have consistency by throwing in a third midfielder against the other 20% tough opposition. It's more about coaching patters that makes your team more attacking that having attacking players on the pitch. It's way more tactical and nuanced than 10 years ago. I mean we're getting outplayed by Sheffield United ffs. It's been happening for years even during Fergie's latter tenure and it's not sustainable.
I understand that many top teams are now playing with a midfield three, but it would be unwise to blindly following the trend without considering our own limitation. These teams have top wingers at their prime years (such as Mane, Salah, Sterling etc) to carry the attack, but Rashford and James, despite displaying plenty of potential, have not been mature and consistent enough to do the same for us yet. These teams also have attacking full backs to support the attack, while Wan-Bissaka is not really that good going forward.
In big games, you've got to make changes and special instructions, regardless whether the formation remains the same or not. One example I like to use is the game Liverpool played at Old Trafford this season. With their quality and form, they could have easily won (hate to say as a United fan), but they decided to give up their usual game, making Arnold and Robertson stay back to deal with our counterattacks. It is a common practice for managers to switch things ahead of big games (Mourinho is a master in this area by the way), so I think consistency is less an issue.
Just read Pogba missed training yesterday. I would of thought he'd be training all the time now. Really don't know what to make of it.
Where did you read that? I also don't think he can train with the squad yet, or he would have made the bench against Alkmaar.
Interesting to see that there's no contrete speculation regarding his future here. I'm not convinced Madrid or the other big boys would be filling to spend what we would rightfully be asking for.
Read it in the official man utd site and a news paper artcle. Ole said he was training on grass so I took it for granted he'd be with the squad. Obviously I was wrong.
say waaaaa
Nope, it's a stretch to think they'd pay enough, having seen him be out for months as well.
Ya know what I meanThat's exactly why we should be playing a proper three. There is no attacking mid right now in the world that would make us a better team in the long term if it meant playing McFred in a pivot or having Pogba in that two. The idea is that a thre man midfield controls the momentum and possession of the game to give the ball to the front three in better positions. Right now we are asking a lot of the front three to play on the break and create chances without a structure, which is down to the fact we're not getting coached well and we'll happily concede possesion.
He's not yet training with the main group, he's doing running and fitness work on the grass pitches.
That will be why you didn't see him in the training pictures.
'IF' he comes back, he has the perfect scenario in which he will play the #10, have little defensive responsibility and can be expressive. I don't think he is staying, but if there was ever a time for it to work out here it is now. The best thing for him is to knuckle down and give us 6 good months before he moves, because his value is plummeting at the moment, and the likes of Real aren't going to spend €100m on him as he is now.
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