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2020-21 Performances


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Rozay

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Never seen a United player so disliked. Never a post of praise without a ‘but’ attached, or at least begrudged.

And I can always be certain that even after a good performance, the first page of this thread will have 5 or 6 people point out that one moment where he was tackled or didn’t complete a pass or something.
 

Infra-red

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he was injured for like 9 months, came back and got injured again, came back, caught covid. The guy went nearly a year without kicking a football then got Covid lungs. Him getting better now should be no surprise and isn’t necessarily “playing for a move”, it’s the natural progression of being able to play football and being fit for a player of his quality
He knows that we have to sell him in either January or the summer. Which clubs come in for him and how much they offer him personally, is going to based in large part on how he performs in the next few months. You don't think any of that will have an influence on his performances?

I see this as a win-win for us and him. Bigger fee in January/July and better performances in the interim.
 

DoomSlayer

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We are not relying that much on him though. Hes far from the first name on the team sheet and we've done just fine when hes been left out
Yeah, I see what you and @kouroux are saying. We just need to make sure that whatever happens with Pogba, this whole saga doesn't continue to harm the progress of the club and squad.

We have a real chance to establish ourselves as a class team this season, we can't lose that again.
 

Bobcat

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Yeah, I see what you and @kouroux are saying. We just need to make sure that whatever happens with Pogba, this whole saga doesn't continue to harm the progress of the club and squad.

We have a real chance to establish ourselves as a class team this season, we can't lose that again.
I am not to worried really. Pogba and Fernandes is the same XI is unbalanced imo. Say we get 50-70 million for Pogba and reinvest that in either a CB, DM or attacker i am pretty confident we will come out stronger on the other side
 

kouroux

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Yeah, I see what you and @kouroux are saying. We just need to make sure that whatever happens with Pogba, this whole saga doesn't continue to harm the progress of the club and squad.

We have a real chance to establish ourselves as a class team this season, we can't lose that again.
I agree with this, all I'm saying is that it's exactly what Ole has been doing with him. He's used him when he needed him but he didn't put him above others. Everyone is playing on merits this season
 

sammsky1

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Yeah, I see what you and @kouroux are saying. We just need to make sure that whatever happens with Pogba, this whole saga doesn't continue to harm the progress of the club and squad.

We have a real chance to establish ourselves as a class team this season, we can't lose that again.
After 2 years of seeing how Ole handled wantaway or deadwood players, I think it’s pretty clear now that he has complete control over the group, is very skilled at keeping the spirit of the group positive and knows how to handle Pogba, as a player and personality.

Pogba has to deliver performances if he wants to get an acceptable to leave. The moment those performances drop, he’ll be dropped. Anyway, he’s become a rotation player now and the team knows perfectly well how to win without him.
 

sammsky1

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It's a real pity that Raiola and Woodward have misguided him so much. Particularly the latter in his narcissistic desperation.

All Pogba needs to do to become virtually unbeatable on the pitch is to accept a much lower wage.

Raiola and Woodward sold him on the image of some messianic untouchable phoenix alpha and to be 'fair' to them, he bought into it. The result was that he became a bit of a caricature. Playing a role that wasn't right for him. Hence the bizarre eschewing of the fundamentals - the jogging back, all the infamous 'this isn't supposed to happen to me' moments, etc. ALL of that is from internal cross-wiring: 'Well, that's not the part i'm being paid/asked to play; those little things are for the others to do (but wait I'm supposed to do that stuff', too, aren't I?).

This is something that you see A LOT when it happens - someone gets a little too bigged up a little too early - in any ultra-elite organization.

I've been against his signing from the start due to all the forthcoming impact we've seen play out through the club since then, but while I sometimes wish that the right people had been able to talk to Pogba during his first exit saga, it's also kind of clear that he himself has had an inclination towards that sort of self-image.

Funny thing is, now he's at another point where someone can talk to him about it. Except now he might just have matured enough during the interim to recognize its truth:

The thing that would paradoxically unlock his best attitude would be for him to say, 'Woodward, all you understand is money. You can shove it up your ass. I'm not "the superstar". I'm just a winner. And I will do anything to win. Including taking less money. I understand now that you wanted to be the big man strutting around making the biggest deals. I understand now that I fell prey to that, and that in doing so I hurt myself and the club. But I won't now. If you really want, just pay me a bit extra when we win the league.'

He doesn't necessarily have to say it literally (although that would be absolutely glorious). But that mindset and that action of signing a new contract on extremely reduced wages. That's all he needs to do to become the complete version of himself. "I'm being paid the same as these guys. Because we all do the same job. And we're going to take over the world together.'"

Easier said than done, of course.
Just when I thought it was exactly impossible to hear another excuse mitigating Pogba’s lack of consistency or commitment to the club, you came up with this beauty! Serious respect!
 

Devil may care

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Basically we know he's off in the summer but it's good to see he's knuckling down and performing well as a squad player in the meantime.
 

hungrywing

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@hungrywing When you typed this part , were you sober ? There aren't many players of his age, if any at all, who would accept playing for less money. That's just delusion
Stone cold sober, man. :sadfaceemoji: Hence the 'easier said than done' part.

Again, that was about psychology and how specifically Woodward contributed greatly to propping up Pogba's mental deficiencies. For Paul Pogba to actually become $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba, he has to paradoxically accept and embrace that he's NOT $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba. And once he does this, he'll actually become $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba. Sounds crazy, I know. The lesser-intelligent posters might react with a 'what did I just read' but posters like you and sammsky at least have questions regarding specifics.

It's like a man or woman coming into the doctor's office, two hundred pounds overweight, smoking three packs a day, drinking a fifth every day. 'Patient: Doc, I feel horrible. The only time I feel okay is when I'm smoking or drinking or eating.' 'Doctor: Okay, if you want to feel better, you have to stop doing all those things'

Is it delusional to expect them to stop? Probably. Is that advice technically wrong? It'd be easy to just say no, but in truth, it's paradoxically yes and no, since alcohol and sugar do make one 'feel better' temporarily due to science things. Paul can go on thinking he's '$89m $290k/w Paul Pogba' (thanks to Raiola and Woodward), and sadly that would be exactly the thing that would and will always keep him from becoming that.

I've posted about the quirky phenomenon of ultra-elite performers in various fields asking for less pay when they anticipate positive trade-offs for the organization so I'll try to refrain from doing that again. (Btw, we have someone in our squad right now who I believe is very likely to be in this category. And I would love - loooooooove - to be in the room when his contract re-negotiations happen. Woodfart/Crudge: We want to up you to $300k/w. Player B: But then that's 12m/yr that you could use to do _____ for the club. I don't want. Bye. Or even better: Player B's Agent: Woodfly wants to pay you more. Player B: Tell him to feck off. Literally tell him that. I don't want him to call you for another five years. That idiot does everything out of fear, and if he wants to pay me more it's because he's afraid others will make fun of him for not paying me 'what I'm worth'.')

Just when I thought it was exactly impossible to hear another excuse mitigating Pogba’s lack of consistency or commitment to the club, you came up with this beauty! Serious respect!
I hope you've noticed that I disapprove - to put it mildly - of his whole time at the club and want him gone yesterday, so it most certainly is not an excuse for his attitude. It's a technical analysis of how he could fix his attitude/mentality; it's the only way, although extremely unlikely he'll understand why.

But Woodward's role in the whole Pogba fiasco is far, far greater than generally realized on the caf. Pogba's contract, dressing room status and squad role were a manifestation of Woodward's rampant insecure narcissism and the damage it causes to an organization. I say 'were' there because it looks like Ole's done a good job of excising the latter two elements, and soon, we hope the third.

P.S. The rest of this isn't specifically in response to samn's post; just some additional musings regarding the Pogba contract.

Even now, a year or so on from when the tide finally turned and people have largely stopped even calling Wooddumbass a 'financial genius' and the caf as a whole seems to at least a vague notion that everything he's doing is harmful to the organization, one can still find people calling out Sanchez' contract as 'the worst deal in the history of the club'.

Pogba's contract holds that title and It's not even close. If the Sanchez contract is at the top of Everest, Pogba's is on the ISS. Sanchez's contract was a merc contract given to a merc by a moron that by that time everyone in the important parts of the footballing world knew to be a moron. Pogba's contract was a merc contract given to a merc pretending-to-be/packaged-as the savior of the organization a by a moron that everyone in the important parts of the footballing world weren't maybe quite sure was a moron before, but were VERY sure he was an absolute-fecking-idiot-and-then-some after. That contract was a desperation-bomb - 'We'll whore ourselves out to anybody!' whose effects are still being felt today and from which only just now - almost half a decade later - the club is showing signs of possibly escaping from.

Very few people - at least on the caf - understand how much the blood was in the water after that contract. After the Pogba contract, even the least-sensitive-to-this-kind-of-shit executives/agents realized how ignorant and narcissistic (and hence manipulable) Woodward was.
 

The Red Thinker

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In my head, I ended the Paul Pogba debate like this. Yes I had internal struggles as to why I despised him at times and fell in love with him other times.

It all comes down to intent and intelligence.

Paul Pogba has spectacular technique, physique and skills. SPECTACULAR. I've been willing him to be more than what he was for years... then I convinced myself that maybe the teams were so shit, he couldn't do it by himself.

In comes Bruno Fernandes and he flipped my world upside down. He has average physique. A great skill set and great technique. Better than Pogba's? No way. But Bruno had the one thing we craved from Pogba. Leadership. To have that kind of impact is unreal. He's shown up Pogba. Bruno's mentality is SPECTACULAR. Pogba's Poor.

Pogba cannot elevate those around him, he's the rich kid who needs rich tools to make rich goods. Bruno is all about overcoming odds. That is what he is about. Bruno has the intent in the attacking areas and the Intelligence in the deep to NOT give it away. He still does... but nowhere near as careless as Pogba is.
 

sammsky1

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Stone cold sober, man. :sadfaceemoji: Hence the 'easier said than done' part.

Again, that was about psychology and how specifically Woodward contributed greatly to propping up Pogba's mental deficiencies. For Paul Pogba to actually become $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba, he has to paradoxically accept and embrace that he's NOT $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba. And once he does this, he'll actually become $89m $290k/w Paul Pogba. Sounds crazy, I know. The lesser-intelligent posters might react with a 'what did I just read' but posters like you and sammsky at least have questions regarding specifics.

It's like a man or woman coming into the doctor's office, two hundred pounds overweight, smoking three packs a day, drinking a fifth every day. 'Patient: Doc, I feel horrible. The only time I feel okay is when I'm smoking or drinking or eating.' 'Doctor: Okay, if you want to feel better, you have to stop doing all those things'

Is it delusional to expect them to stop? Probably. Is that advice technically wrong? It'd be easy to just say no, but in truth, it's paradoxically yes and no, since alcohol and sugar do make one 'feel better' temporarily due to science things. Paul can go on thinking he's '$89m $290k/w Paul Pogba' (thanks to Raiola and Woodward), and sadly that would be exactly the thing that would and will always keep him from becoming that.

I've posted about the quirky phenomenon of ultra-elite performers in various fields asking for less pay when they anticipate positive trade-offs for the organization so I'll try to refrain from doing that again. (Btw, we have someone in our squad right now who I believe is very likely to be in this category. And I would love - loooooooove - to be in the room when his contract re-negotiations happen. Woodfart/Crudge: We want to up you to $300k/w. Player B: But then that's 12m/yr that you could use to do _____ for the club. I don't want. Bye. Or even better: Player B's Agent: Woodfly wants to pay you more. Player B: Tell him to feck off. Literally tell him that. I don't want him to call you for another five years. That idiot does everything out of fear, and if he wants to pay me more it's because he's afraid others will make fun of him for not paying me 'what I'm worth'.')



I hope you've noticed that I disapprove - to put it mildly - of his whole time at the club and want him gone yesterday, so it most certainly is not an excuse for his attitude. It's a technical analysis of how he could fix his attitude/mentality; it's the only way, although extremely unlikely he'll understand why.

But Woodward's role in the whole Pogba fiasco is far, far greater than generally realized on the caf. Pogba's contract, dressing room status and squad role were a manifestation of Woodward's rampant insecure narcissism and the damage it causes to an organization. I say 'were' there because it looks like Ole's done a good job of excising the latter two elements, and soon, we hope the third.

P.S. The rest of this isn't specifically in response to samn's post; just some additional musings regarding the Pogba contract.

Even now, a year or so on from when the tide finally turned and people have largely stopped even calling Wooddumbass a 'financial genius' and the caf as a whole seems to at least a vague notion that everything he's doing is harmful to the organization, one can still find people calling out Sanchez' contract as 'the worst deal in the history of the club'.

Pogba's contract holds that title and It's not even close. If the Sanchez contract is at the top of Everest, Pogba's is on the ISS. Sanchez's contract was a merc contract given to a merc by a moron that by that time everyone in the important parts of the footballing world knew to be a moron. Pogba's contract was a merc contract given to a merc pretending-to-be/packaged-as the savior of the organization a by a moron that everyone in the important parts of the footballing world weren't maybe quite sure was a moron before, but were VERY sure he was an absolute-fecking-idiot-and-then-some after. That contract was a desperation-bomb - 'We'll whore ourselves out to anybody!' whose effects are still being felt today and from which only just now - almost half a decade later - the club is showing signs of possibly escaping from.

Very few people - at least on the caf - understand how much the blood was in the water after that contract. After the Pogba contract, even the least-sensitive-to-this-kind-of-shit executives/agents realized how ignorant and narcissistic (and hence manipulable) Woodward was.
Actually, upon reading your very nuanced explanation above, I can see what you mean and it’s perhaps an excellent point.

you’re right that Pogba has very little stardust PR while at Juventus and being a marketing star was a core part of his new identity when he came back to Old Trafford.

Perhaps by trying to live up to that, he has lost everything that made him successful as a midfielder. For example his performance vs Everton wasn’t spectacular like McTominay’s vs Leeds, but it was a hardworking and almost mistake free 7/10 type performance and that’s what most fans have been crying out for. It’s when he tries to be top dog that he fails, but as you say, his fee, wages and marketing present him as such.
 

luke511

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I hate how he stands still flat footed when the ball's not at his feet. It's like playing with a man down when the opposition have possession.
 

Kajus

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Brilliant performance. Wearing a red shirt was especially clever, really tricked the team into thinking he's not playing against us.
 

Barnslig

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Did absolutely nothing since coming on, but jogging by and being completely unaware that there were Leicester players on the pitch.

Two good games and he thinks he's untouchable again.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Disappointed he didn’t follow his man. Cost us that Leicester 2nd goal there.
 

Hammondo

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Between him and James for our worst player today. Always been poor Vs the press.
 

bond19821982

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He is not a winger for a start and he isn't suited when the opposition midfield presses like hell. Crap game !
 

Zhagzi

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Did not make a single change in dynamics today. That says a lot coming on for James. Should really be moved on to make space for better-suited players.
 

nokoya

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It's his fault and not rashford for missing sitters? Or the £80 mil defender and his buddy?
Another Pogba defender ?

Surely it was his fault for walking around and pointing here and there. He isn't manager, he is player on the pitch. Should track the opponent players.

No excuse on this.
 

Bubz27

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Leicester had us pegged back in the second half until Pogba came on.
Disappointed he didn’t follow his man. Cost us that Leicester 2nd goal there.
Yeah, nothing to do with Fred and Shaw both going towards Justin rather than Ayoze or Vardy being unmarked on the 6 yard box.
 

Roboc7

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Should have come on for Mct instead of James, poor performance but pretty stupid putting him in that position.
 

Sanchez7

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He was fine with the ball. Couldn't get into the game much. People calling it an embarrassing performance :houllier:
 

Hammondo

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Should have come on for Mct instead of James, poor performance but pretty stupid putting him in that position.
Looking at how we played, if we put him in instead of mctominay we would have lost by quite a few goals.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Leicester had us pegged back in the second half until Pogba came on.

Yeah, nothing to do with Fred and Shaw both going towards Justin rather than Ayoze or Vardy being unmarked on the 6 yard box.
Nothing. What did Pogba do for that goal? Ball watching. In fact Perez was his man to follow from the build up. If there is any second player to blamed for that isn’t Shaw & Fred but Bailly for not checking his shoulder where Vardy was.
 

Norris

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Very useless sub. Pogba did nothing of note. It was a like for like sub in terms of potency.
 

Pogue Mahone

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"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I don’t know if he’s lazy or just completely unaware what’s going on around him but the way he lets opposition midfielders run right past him is fecking infuriating. Lost us two points today and would have given Everton the lead, with 10 minutes left, if Sigurdsson hadn’t missed that diving header.
 

acnumber9

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I don’t know if he’s lazy or just completely unaware what’s going on around him but the way he lets opposition midfielders run right past him is fecking infuriating. Lost us two points today and would have given Everton the lead, with 10 minutes left, if Sigurdsson hadn’t missed that diving header.
He didn’t lose us two points today. He’s lazy but it’s not his fault our defenders don’t understand the concept of marking the one player they have in the box. That said, after a good start he drifted out of the game and it was an issue.
 
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