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2020-21 Performances


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romufc

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Are you sure Bruno keeps the ball better than Pogba, and do you have any stats to back that up? I ask that as when I watch Bruno he seems pretty careless/loose with a lot of his passing
This season let me give you some stats. It is also worth considering that players further up the pitch will lose the ball more because they try more.

BrunoPogba
Passes14487
Passing accuracy79.2%72.4%
Passing accuracy in opp half80%70%
Duels won %50%37.5%
Recoveries119
Chances created70

Just to note, Paul Pogba is playing CM.
 

Posh Red

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This season let me give you some stats. It is also worth considering that players further up the pitch will lose the ball more because they try more.

BrunoPogba
Passes14487
Passing accuracy79.2%72.4%
Passing accuracy in opp half80%70%
Duels won %50%37.5%
Recoveries119
Chances created70

Just to note, Paul Pogba is playing CM.
Fair enough. Pogba has definitely started this season poorly but those numbers aren’t good.
 

JPRouve

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This season let me give you some stats. It is also worth considering that players further up the pitch will lose the ball more because they try more.

BrunoPogba
Passes14487
Passing accuracy79.2%72.4%
Passing accuracy in opp half80%70%
Duels won %50%37.5%
Recoveries119
Chances created70

Just to note, Paul Pogba is playing CM.
So your example is a two game sample, where one player is in really bad form and out of shape? Not their career stats?
 

romufc

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Fair enough. Pogba has definitely started this season poorly but those numbers aren’t good.
The thing is Bruno hasn't started the season all that either, yet Pogba's stats are pretty damning.

We can all sit here and talk about system, tactics etc.. but when one of your talisman is putting in such stinkers, he has to be dropped.

I can understand fitness being an issue but he falls behind in all aspects. He will improve as his fitness gets better but when he is in this shape, I do not think he should start.
 

romufc

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So your example is a two game sample, where one player is in really bad form and out of shape? Not their career stats?
Why would I compare career stats between 2 players that played at different clubs?

This season is 2 games old, I am basing it on this season. So who's fault is it that Pogba is out of shape?

I know you will say Covid, he has been back for 2 weeks and he was also keeping in shape whilst isolating. Other players who have had covid (asymptematic) have come back in reasonable shape.
 

CG1010

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72.4% passing accuracy from deep midfield position is extremely terrible especially when Pogba doesn't really offer much in terms of defensive point of view either. I believe Pogba alone is a huge factor in the overall teams performance in these two games. At the end the manager is at fault for Pogba playing 130 minutes.
 

tenpoless

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It's normal to have a period of bad games. But it really is up to Ole to change it. If Pogba is unfit or far from 100%, maybe start with other midfielders.
 

Posh Red

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The thing is Bruno hasn't started the season all that either, yet Pogba's stats are pretty damning.

We can all sit here and talk about system, tactics etc.. but when one of your talisman is putting in such stinkers, he has to be dropped.

I can understand fitness being an issue but he falls behind in all aspects. He will improve as his fitness gets better but when he is in this shape, I do not think he should start.
Yeah it will be tempting to sit him out of a game or two and maybe give Fred a go to be honest.
 

JPRouve

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Why would I compare career stats between 2 players that played at different clubs?

This season is 2 games old, I am basing it on this season. So who's fault is it that Pogba is out of shape?

I know you will say Covid, he has been back for 2 weeks and he was also keeping in shape whilst isolating. Other players who have had covid (asymptematic) have come back in reasonable shape.
Because you tried to characterize both players? You also compared him with KDB and unless I missed something he has never played for United, so there is something wrong with your justification. But most importantly, since you decided to characterize both players a two game sample will tell you nothing about whether one is better at keeping the ball than the other because sample size matter but we both know why you didn't do that, since the player that is supposedly better at keeping the ball has a 76% passing rate while the player that can't keep the ball is at 83%.

And I don't know who's fault it is and in that conversation I don't care, if you want to blame him go ahead but it won't help you support your claim and faulty use of stats.
 

romufc

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Because you tried to characterize both players? You also compared him with KDB and unless I missed something he has never played for United, so there is something wrong with your justification. But most importantly, since you decided to characterize both players a two game sample will tell you nothing about whether one is better at keeping the ball than the other because sample size matter but we both know why you didn't do that, since the player that is supposedly better at keeping the ball has a 76% passing rate while the player that can't keep the ball is at 83%.

And I don't know who's fault it is and in that conversation I don't care, if you want to blame him go ahead but it won't help you support your claim and faulty use of stats.
So comparing a player this season on stats is faulty? Can you explain how the stats are faulty?

Is sample size the issue or stat accuracy the issue?
 

JPRouve

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So comparing a player this season on stats is faulty? Can you explain how the stats are faulty?

Is sample size the issue or stat accuracy the issue?
At this point of the season yes comparing players statistically is faulty when you try to characterize them because stats are unreliable when the sample size is that small, you can judge both games in isolation but you can't extrapolate the stats. As for your second question, stats accuracy relies heavily on sample size, the larger the sample the more accurate is the data.

But most importantly when you actually have career stats about both players and try to determine the characteristics of both players, it's extremely strange to ignore those stats and focus on a sample size that represents less than 1% of the total amount of passes that each players have played in their careers.
 

Zen86

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Yuck, what an insuferable post. This is literally the lowest point in his career. There has never been a time when he's been less fit or playing worse. You should try getting a clue before posting again.
He’s no doubt got bags of talent, but he’s not lived up to his reputation since arriving here. There’s been short periods of playing well here and there, but the majority of his United career can be boiled down to token YouTube highlights of a good dribble or show of strength. I understand that the truth hurts.
 

Stacks

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This thread is car crash. Same people repeating how trash Pogba is and then agreeing among themselves how bright minded they are that they can spot while others can't. Rinse and repeat.

Perspective and context is completely lost on some. He is recovering from Covid 19 that has claimed a million death. Last season he didn't perform well apparently, doesn't matter if he was injured for 70% of the season. Season before that he was top performers in almost every department but apparently he hasn't performed for 4 years now. Won a world cup as a fluke also I guess
Doesn't tell the full story. That 2019 season he performed for roughly 1/3 of the season. The 1st period under Jose, he was poor and got benched, then he went HAM for that run under Ole, then post PSG he was poor (as was everyone else) so really they are correct in their assessment that it is 1 in 3.
 

Raven

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He’s no doubt got bags of talent, but he’s not lived up to his reputation since arriving here. There’s been short periods of playing well here and there, but the majority of his United career can be boiled down to token YouTube highlights of a good dribble or show of strength. I understand that the truth hurts.
Didn't bother taking my advice then, fair enough.
 

pratyush_utd

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Pogba has been inconsistent since he came back to the club.

Yes, he's not 100% right now but when is he ever? He's never strung together consistent form. He's either great or pathetic and that doesnt wash with me. I'll admit - his POTENTIAL is there, his ABILITY is there. it just never shows consistently enough

His lack of effort over his whole time here, not just the last 2 games is way below the level required to warrant being at this football club. He simply doesnt try hard enough.

It's a real shame Pogba has divided the fan base. The hope for him to become a better player and hone his ability into a world class player will never materialise here. He's not good enough mentality to become a consistent performer.

World class players dont have as many off days as Pogba. I think our team would be better off without him, it's not about hatred or singling out a player at all. I'd love for him to come good here and be a world class midfielder but the fact is bar the odd glimpses he's been a very underwhelming signing. Thats why i mentioned hype in an earlier post, his name and his brand is enough for some people. But on a football pitch, over a 90 minute game he is out worked and out played on a weekly basis and that cannot continue. Something has to give - he;s not improving and costing the team more than he's benefiting it.

it's almost as if we can criticise any of our players bar Pogba. Sad our fans dont judge Pogba on his actual performances more
It's not about criticism. It has to be constructive not vindictive. That's the issue here. He hasn't divided the fanbase or something. He was our best player in almost every department 2 season back and was injured for almost all season last year.

If by being inconsistent you mean topping all Manutd stats then I guess I will be take that one. It's just people refuse to see he isn't 100% and then use it further their already framed opinion about him. This notion that he hasn't performed is simply not true.
 

Raven

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Try not getting so emotional over this :rolleyes:
Says one of the people constantly throwing their toys out of the pram because someone is out of form. Ya boring.
 

pratyush_utd

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Doesn't tell the full story. That 2019 season he performed for roughly 1/3 of the season. The 1st period under Jose, he was poor and got benched, then he went HAM for that run under Ole, then post PSG he was poor (as was everyone else) so really they are correct in their assessment that it is 1 in 3.
You conveniently forgot that it was Martial and Pogba who kept Mourinho in the job till December.

It seems people just find reasons to deny Pogba's contribution. I could understand if he wasn't our player anymore but to do that when he is one of us, it's not correct. Being best in every department from our team, then you complain how he wasn't good for 3 months when everyone bar him and Martial were woeful. Not sure what expectations you have from him?
 

Stacks

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You conveniently forgot that it was Martial and Pogba who kept Mourinho in the job till December.

It seems people just find reasons to deny Pogba's contribution. I could understand if he wasn't our player anymore but to do that when he is one of us, it's not correct. Being best in every department from our team, then you complain how he wasn't good for 3 months when everyone bar him and Martial were woeful. Not sure what expectations you have from him?
Contributed a goal or assist in 5 games out of 16. If that's keeping someone in the job then he must have been dominating those matches then
 

pratyush_utd

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Contributed a goal or assist in 5 games out of 16. If that's keeping someone in the job then he must have been dominating those matches then
But according to you it's misleading to top the charts at the end of the season but it's perfectly okay to arbitrary select 3 months of Jose car crash of a season. He is a midfielder who was our top scorer. What do you want more from a CM?

I added Martial name there as well. If you go to his thread , same nonsense is being mentioned about him.
 

Stacks

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But according to you it's misleading to top the charts at the end of the season but it's perfectly okay to arbitrary select 3 months of Jose car crash of a season. He is a midfielder who was our top scorer. What do you want more from a CM?

I added Martial name there as well. If you go to his thread , same nonsense is being mentioned about him.
its not really arbitrary. If you look over the duration of the season (9 months) for how many did you feel he excelled? its a bit like Lukakau in his debut season. he went on a mad run at the start then from November averaged one league goal per month
 

Djemba-Djemba

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The only sustained run of excellence he's had at Utd was the golden period right after we sacked Mourinho and Ole came in as a temp manager.

Those 2 or 3 months, Pogba was finally looking like the player we all hoped we were getting in 2016.

Other than that he's been a player capable of incredible world class moments, but unfortunately he can also regularly put in 1/10 style performances where it just looks like he's taking the piss. He can be so infuriatingly sloppy on the ball.

He's been a letdown overall I'd say and I wouldn't be heartbroken if this was his final year here.
 

Mr PG

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People don't understand. Pogba got lots of skills but his huge frame hinders his lateral mobility, change of direction and stamina when he plays in midfield. And that, ladies and gentlemen is the main reason Guardiola passed the chance to buy him and main reason for his inconsistency. He needs to be supremely fit to play to his best and even then, midfield is a position requiring lots of graft. He can make lots of assists but you still give up a lot of midfield defensive nous when you play Pogba. Would seriously improve his game if he kept it simple and was played upfront but for the kind of money he will want, we cannot afford pogba's luxury unless we significantly improve our fullback's as well as defensive midfielders.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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If only Paul Pogba was a few inches shorter

Interesting article in The Athletic detailing the curious case of Paul Pogba.

Pogba has fallen foul of the same issue a number of blue-chip players have encountered at post-Ferguson United; they are expected to bring the craft, ingenuity, and organisation they demonstrated at their previous club with little thought as to how they previously achieved that. As we argued previously, early conversation hoped Pogba would be able to replicate the entirety of Juventus’ midfield at United, rather than United looking to replicate such a midfield to allow the Frenchman to repeat his tricks.

To use a current-day example, James Rodriguez is the crown jewel of new-look Everton this season, but that is possible because Carlo Ancelotti has surrounded him with the ball-winning and ball-carrying talents of Allan and Abdoulaye Doucoure. Manchester United bought Pogba – a four-time Serie A winner, who would go on to score in the last World Cup final with N’Golo Kante next to him – and gave him the following central midfield partners: Andreas Pereira, Marouane Fellaini, Scott McTominay, Ander Herrera, Fred and Nemanja Matic. Where Everton made moves to provide a platform for Rodriguez to be Rodriguez, United have often asked to be “Pogba + 1 other thing” in their midfield.

Now, one should offer some balance; the problem United have had in “letting Pogba be Pogba” does have much to do with disorganisation on a player trading level, but also owes a fair chunk to the Frenchman being one of the most confusing midfielders at the top of the Premier League.
Have to admit, I am hyper critical of Pogba but it comes from a position of love and how much I want him to perform for United and fulfil his potential with the club. But I hugely agree with the bolded part. I understand we have midfielders who can compliment him but we do persist with him in a 4231. Now does this excuse the turnovers, poor decisions, languid and slow recoveries when he loses the ball? No. But I think the author is onto something here.

Thoughts?
 

YouOnlyLiveTwice

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If only Paul Pogba was a few inches shorter

Interesting article in The Athletic detailing the curious case of Paul Pogba.



Have to admit, I am hyper critical of Pogba but it comes from a position of love and how much I want him to perform for United and fulfil his potential with the club. But I hugely agree with the bolded part. I understand we have midfielders who can compliment him but we do persist with him in a 4231. Now does this excuse the turnovers, poor decisions, languid and slow recoveries when he loses the ball? No. But I think the author is onto something here.

Thoughts?
Herrera and Pogba in a 2 worked quite well. Herrera could do a bit of everything, he was like a Kante "light". I don't think think a midfield 2 including Pogba will ever be completely balanced though. He lacks the defensive ability and intensity in his game to function properly in a double pivot. I had hopes that he would adapt, but my hope is pretty much gone now. The article is pretty accurate imo. Mourinho wanted him to be the deep lying playmaker/ball-carrier in his system, like LvG wanted him to be his Schweinsteiger if we had got him in his time. It hasn't worked out, and must be seen as a failure that we haven't been able to get the best out of Pogba.

Last two performances should be seen in isolation, as he has simply been complete arse, and it has to be down to fitness/sickness whatever.
 

kouroux

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I don't think it's that complicated, if a player isn't performing consisntently well for a while, whatever the reason, then changing formation and his status as a undisputed starter isn't a crime. For all we know, it could be a kick in his butt and he could wake up and if not, we'd have taken a struggling player out of the starting lineup. There is nothing to lose by trying something new
 

Clermontois

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I was talking about pre 2016, the fact that Deschamps was talking about Pogba is the proof that he was focusing on him and the fact that he never said anything about Griezmann shows you that he wasn't the focus. Pre 2016 everything was about Pogba, everyone from the staff to the press and fans were more busy dissecting Pogba's performances than realize that maybe we had larger issues, the same happened with Benzema and Ribéry. And in your attempt to hype up Pogba, you got it wrong with the current situation since Griezmann has become the focus with everyone wondering how can we make him play well again, also the 3412 was brought up to suit him which is a mistake.
It is not proof at all, as someone who usually watches the press briefings I can say Deschamps has not talked about Paul any less, TF1 even did a segment on how often he is asked about Paul and in them Didier Deschamps even rolled his eyes a few times. Antoine was never the focus in those press briefings but he is on the evening shows as though he has ever did much. After the WC they asked an entire panel who is the attacking leader of France, Kylian or Antoine, 4/5 answered the latter which shows the nonsensical bias.

This is where you have erred as I have no reason to hype Paul, his talent is it's own hype. Everything I have said here about him is true, end of.

They do talk about Antoine more now in the press briefings but same goes for Karim and he is not in the team. The switch in formation, to me, is more down to a realization that Raphael seems to be on the wane and we cannot call on Sam at the moment so Dayot is being tried with the others.
 

In Rainbows

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A lot sharper today compared to the previous performances. Lucky on the freekick, but everything else was good. About time he got lucky on something like that. He usually hits the post.
 

NinjaFletch

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Glad to see he's gotten over the Long Covid that prevented him from breaking into a sprint on Saturday.
 

kiristao

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Almost played like he wanted to prove a point. From the time he came on the pitch there was a bounce in his step. Need this Pogba show up every week.
 

Nick7

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We were much better when he and Rashford came on. We got a bit of control in the middle.
 

mu4c_20le

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He's a victim of his own ability it seems. He's too well rounded and versatile so we put him at 8, and expect him to play like a Vidal. Take off the shackles and he becomes a completely different player.