To call Matic is a Carrick type of player is such an insult for all deeplying playmaker out there.
Pogba was alway supported with extra player when played with France for example Matuidi was the left winger/midfield in World Cup.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Pogba was alway supported with extra player when played with France for example Matuidi was the left winger/midfield in World Cup.
There seems to be an excuse for Pogba every time. If a player needs 4 players around him to do well, then there is a problem. For Pogba to do well he needs a striker making runs, a DLP, a runner and wingers that cover him. What other player needs this much help ?
I've been saying this for what must be years now. We need a top class, mobile DM. Kante would have been my dream signing to help accommodate both Pogba and Bruno in midfield.
To say 'we shouldn't sign players to accommodate Pogba' is a bit silly really because we've never done that in my opinion. We've bought a player that clearly needs that base behind him, haven't provided that base and expected him to play the same as he did for Juve and does for France.
It's like buying a Ferrari, knowing what you need to run it and then not being able to afford the fuel and tyres... and it won't run the same without it. Imo at least. Or, ya know, he's total crap which I find hard to believe.
And it's not like the purchase of said DM would only improve Pogba. Just look at how our performances directly correlate to whichever version of Matic turns up on game day. When Matic is on song so is the team, massively important position in my opinion, more so than RW.
I never really say it wasn’t a problem. I’m not sure what’s your point of replying my post when all I said about Pogba was actually his problem.
Only Pogba needs 10 players (of his choosing) for him to do well (not a world class player profile in mi opinion). The problem is that, in case Ole keeps playing the same formation, we don't have "better players" to choose and probably there's a presion off-field that we must keep playing him. IMO we must change the formation and sub both Pogba and Rashford (and Maguire if we could).
Exactly. I keep hearing Manutd have failed Pogba. I am a Pogba fan but there comes a point you have to look at him for his own performances. He has to be the leader and show it on the pitch.
edit: I wasn’t necessarily poking this at you but some people have taken a fecking long time to realise this simple fact.
This.
And how often have we played with a midfield of Matic--Fred--Pogba this season or the last season? Yep, zero. Pogba the whole of last season and this one has been played in a midfield 2.
The system in France is different. Matuidi/Rabiot and Kante are there to cover for Pogba. Griezmann is part of the front 3.
Well not really. Like most attacking midfielders he needs 2 midfielders behind him. Do you think Wesley Sneijder in his prime would play well in a midfield 2 with 32 year old Matic? Hell no. Attacking midfielders with weak defensive ability, dont do well in a midfield 2. Its basic tactics, its not about needing 4 players to play well, its about playing players in a position they are not comfortable in. You could say Pogba is not that versatile.
Pogba has lots of great attributes, but he also has weaknesses. Thats why you cant expect to put him in a midfield 2 and expect the best out of him. Take Pirlo's example. Pirlo always had to be surrounded with lots of hard working midfielders around him to compensate for his lack of mobility. Gerrard was another player never comfortable to play in a midfield 2 in his younger years.
We have signed literally zero players to accommodate Pogba.
All he needs to make the most of his attributes is a top DM. But that’s allowing for another ultra attacking (and sometimes wasteful) Bruno as well.
We need a Matic upgrade, whenever Matic plays well the team plays well, Pogba included as he’s defensively weak at times.
But like everything here on the caf it’s one extreme or the other.
This is essentially the argument i made. Kevin de Bruyne does not need A, B, C, D, and E to be good. He simply is good. Guardiola can play him in a range of positions and he delivers. Right of the MF three, Right of the attacking three, the 10 position. Even Guardiola played him as a false nine against us in the league cup last year.
That all we can come up for Pogba is excuses means he just is not as good a player as we think he should. He is not a 90 million pound player. More like a 40 million pound player.
Modric is a Carrick type player, they both run the team.
Pogba is not an attacking midfielder. We bought Bruno to make up for Pogbas lack of ability in this area.
Well its kind of semantics. He plays best when he is furthest forward in a 3 man midfield. If you dont want to call that an attacking midfielder, fine by me.
I agree that Bruno is better as an AM than Pogba though.
KdB is twice the player Pogba is. But your reasoning is flawed. What you're saying is KdB is versatile and plays equally well in multiple positions. Not all great players are versatile.
You are right, otherwise John O’Shea might just be the greatest player of all time...
The problem with Pogba, is not that he’s not versatile, and we are playing him out of position, or with the wrong partner, it’s that no one knows where he should actually be playing to get the best out of him.
he’s never been a world class player, but he could be a very good one.
Agreed mostly.
I think his best position is in the left side of midfield 3, with the other 2 midfield covering for him defensively.
But he is far too inconsistent in his performances, he is not really someone you can rely on when the going gets tough, and is definitely not a 90M player.
Before Bruno people were complaining he doesn't suit being the furthest forward, and needs someone in front of him. He's poor in tight spaces.
Everyone was talking how finally we bought what pogba needed.
Short memories.
The way we play, our #10(Bruno) almost plays as a second striker. Many have also been saying recently, that doesnt suit Bruno either. I agree, and also think it doesnt suit Pogba either.
Pogba is basically a mezzala. That's where he plays his best football. But I will agree with you though, that even if he is not playing in his favourite position, he should be playing at a much higher level. Pogba's biggest weaknesses are that he is not very mobile(fast),he has a low workrate and is suspect defensively. Which means he is not that good in a midfield 2 or as a second striker.
As I see it, we have already effectively replaced him with VDB. If someone came up offering 60 million for him next summer, I'd take it and try and improve CB and CDM positions.
Pogba is great player but maybe we will be a better team without him.
Pogba is great player but maybe we will be a better team without him.
Yea exactly. Bravo. Or another way to put it is Pogba is not as a good a player as his 90 million pound price tag suggests.
I seem to remember pogba’s best ever form for us (honeymoon period included) was when he played alongside those two. In order not to split hairs, let’s just call it a defensive presence(wether a box to box type like Vidal or a sitting type like Busquets/Kalvin Philips) and someone that dictates play( wether a deep playmaker like pirlo or a more advanced playmaker like Modric/David silva). Put those two alongside him and you get the best of him imo. That seems to be the recipe for a balanced Midfield as well. A defensive presence, metronome, and creative type.
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United’s woes seem to have made you all forget that we signed him on the back of a season where he was included in FIFA world xi and was Juves star player in their run to the finals. It’s not like that was a breakout season for him either, he consistently performed for about 3 years. Pogbas “inconsistency” is just an unbalanced midfield for the most of his time here
United don't have a Kante type player. We don't have a Giroud type of players either. We need to play with 4 midfield players and two up front. It will bring balance to the team.
The most next important piece of transfer business United can do is to sell Pogba. If we get 30 million that's great. Removing him from the payroll is better than the transfer fee alone.
He is a good player but he has not delivered here. I think he just lacks the commitment and application on the pitch to be a top player.
To pay 90 million for a player and 4 years on people are still working out his best position is plain embarrassing.
He was signed to sell shirts for Woodward, let him free now,he wants to. play for Zidane. The little kid in him is telling him exactly that.
He is a good player but he has not delivered here. I think he just lacks the commitment and application on the pitch to be a top player.
To pay 90 million for a player and 4 years on people are still working out his best position is plain embarrassing.
He was signed to sell shirts for Woodward, let him free now,he wants to. play for Zidane. The little kid in him is telling him exactly that.
Man Utd don’t buy players to sell shirts.
Agree. I assume his Shirt selling-Skill has been as good as his performance... so it's time to sell in january. Is the best for his carrer also.
Even Pogba at France wasn’t really that great as how the media described, his nothing special performance was hidden by the World Cup trophy and people though he was amazing. Best Pogba was always been at Juventus. Real probably have the midfield component to compliment him.
At the end of the day, Pogba isn’t what we need and he’s not someone you can use as foundation or the root to build your midfield. He’s more of a final touch to complete the midfield.
Deep playmaker who can dictate is very rare nowadays now, we should move on from Pogba and build our midfield around Bruno.
I don't remember many people saying that at all. My memory is of most people saying that they struggled to see how Bruno and Pogba would play together properly. If we are insistent on playing a 4231 then yes Bruno is obviously a huge improvement over the previous options, and Pogba doesn't suit playing as an actual #10. But it's not 'what Pogba needed'.
I agree with pretty much all of this post. Pogba is extremely creative and thrives (when in form) and driving forwards. However he lacks he can struggle when he denied time and space, and is poor defensively. All in all, as you say, he works well when he isn't really part of the midfield engine but the creative flair that is added to the midfield over and above it. So, as the third, most attacking and 'free' component of a trio in midfield, Pogba can work.
However instead of strengthening the other two in midfield to compliment Pogba, Ole has decided to add two attacking midfielder so pushing Pogba into the two other roles. Either this is a bit cluelessness on his/our part, or it's a temporary plan until we get rid of Pogba. As Bruno and Pogba although worked well for a spell, aren't a tactically sound midfield.
Essentially I'm not sure what Ole is doing with our midfield. We've loaded up on attack minded midfielders who we keep playing alongside Matic or Mctominay and then wonder why teams are ripping our defense to shreds.
While that is true the question arises as to how Ole can get such a huge decision wrong in believing Pogba to be a proper CM. Given he's not, shouldn't he have focused on getting in a true CM who can dictate from deep instead of VDB yet another attacking midfielder.
It annoys me how many people say things like "we've tried everything", "Pogba needs an entire team built around him" or that "people keep changing what he needs", etc.
Even before we officially bought him a significant amount of people said that to make the strongest possible team (not just 'to get the best out of Pogba') we should be looking to play him as the most attacking of a three man midfield, with a proper playmaker behind him who would generally control the team and tempo. We've never done that. Even on the few times he's played with two other more defensive players, he's always had to be our main playmaker as nobody else can do it. Matic is ok and the times he's had good spells have often been when we've looked our best, but he's been very inconsistent (much more so than Pogba in fact). Pogba is like Gerrard was - capable of being the main playmaker but he's too inconsistent to do it properly, so will be at his best when somebody else does that role and unleashes Pogba/Gerrard into a more impact role.
There's two basic ways that we 'should' have tried. Either a deep-lying playmaking (like Carrick) with a hardworking box-to-box, or more of a pure defensive midfielder with a playmaker (like Modric) next to them. Play Pogba next to either of those combinations and I'm confident we'd have seen a far better player - still coming deep and using his fantastic long passing ability, but with the freedom to push forward more and having the cover for his weak defensive ability. Of course now that we've signed Bruno it's difficult to see how it ultimately works as he doesn't fit in either of those systems. Indeed Bruno will probably be like Pogba and will be at his best if he had one of those combinations behind him as well. Not because of Bruno's limitations, but simply because they are properly functioning midfields. We may have to make the choice and replace one of them (it will be Pogba) with someone more suited to that position.
That has been the most common "what we should do" since we signed him, and we've never done it.
Even before we officially bought him a significant amount of people said that to make the strongest possible team (not just 'to get the best out of Pogba') we should be looking to play him as the most attacking of a three man midfield, with a proper playmaker behind him who would generally control the team and tempo. We've never done that. Even on the few times he's played with two other more defensive players, he's always had to be our main playmaker as nobody else can do it. Matic is ok and the times he's had good spells have often been when we've looked our best, but he's been very inconsistent (much more so than Pogba in fact). Pogba is like Gerrard was - capable of being the main playmaker but he's too inconsistent to do it properly, so will be at his best when somebody else does that role and unleashes Pogba/Gerrard into a more impact role.
There's two basic ways that we 'should' have tried. Either a deep-lying playmaking (like Carrick) with a hardworking box-to-box, or more of a pure defensive midfielder with a playmaker (like Modric) next to them. Play Pogba next to either of those combinations and I'm confident we'd have seen a far better player - still coming deep and using his fantastic long passing ability, but with the freedom to push forward more and having the cover for his weak defensive ability. Of course now that we've signed Bruno it's difficult to see how it ultimately works as he doesn't fit in either of those systems. Indeed Bruno will probably be like Pogba and will be at his best if he had one of those combinations behind him as well. Not because of Bruno's limitations, but simply because they are properly functioning midfields. We may have to make the choice and replace one of them (it will be Pogba) with someone more suited to that position.
That has been the most common "what we should do" since we signed him, and we've never done it.
Spot on about his France performance . I remember a lot of people using it as proof that he was best in a two. Which begs the question, if he’s not what we need? Why the hell did we buy him? Shows why we need a DOF. Jose looked at an aging Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Herrera, Fellaini and thought “yup Pogba will fix all that”
I disagree with you about metronomes being rare, they don’t have to play at the base of midfield like Pirlo or Thiago. They can be further forward (like Modric, David Silva, Brandt, Aouar, and even Grealish) and keep the ball moving around the Penalty box. Mata did this for a while coming off the flanks for us, and it’s why Jose couldn’t drop him, I don’t know why Ole can’t see that if you’re going to play possession and high press, you need to be able to keep the ball further up the field
But if we look at last season as an example or midfield did work fairly well after Bruno came in and both Fred and Matic were quality as the season progressed. Fred has great engine and is a decent tackler so hes not that different from Kante, although not as talented. The problem with Pogba has been his own performances and not about the players around him. When Pogba plays badly he does two things that is detrimental to our team
#1 is that he constantly slows down play by hogging the ball for too long, looking for a long pass. Nothing wrong with trying to hit a key pass behind the opponent defense, but in many cases thats not the best solution and its better to just move the ball
#2 is closely related, but when he plays badly he constantly gets disposed because of said ball hogging and hes not aware of the players around him. When this happens in our own half it almost always results in a dangerous situation and is almost a cardinal sin for midfielders to commit
#3 is that he does not track back, and if he does its often very half hearted. Its pretty jarring to see Bruno start 20 meters behind Pogba and bust his arse to get back and then see Pogba casually jogging back when the other team is bearing down on us
In our current system, we simply cant afford having one of the CM's not contributing defensively
The Bruno’s signing was mainly down to Pogba’s injury which what hurt us the most that the team had no creativity when Pogba was injured.
I have a feeling Ole had a long plan for box to box Donny, Pogba & deep playmaker Longstaff trio last year (Just my random guess since apparently we have keep watched Donny for years and we were linked with Longstaff).
Because of Bruno’s arrival & Pogba came back from injury, he’s probably thinking to change the plan trying to force both Pogba & Bruno to play together. But the fact that we signed Donny and haven’t offer Pogba new contract, may be Ole wants to evaluate this further and will make the decision next summer (Again, just my random guess).
Sure they can, I never say they can’t but the point of me specifically mention the deep playmaker is to talk about the midfield component to suit Pogba which I gave the Juventus example. The advanced or further forward playmaker just doesn’t suit to play next to Pogba imo. If it’s the case, there is no problem and debate about playing Pogba & Bruno together.
I'd be very tempted to just stick him on the right and hope it holds til January, since we're getting very little there and he would give us size, dribbling and crossing and can't be worse defensively or at the half way line than a teenage striker.
Rashford/Martial------Greenwood/Martial/Cavani-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pogba
------------------------------VDB-----------------Bruno--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------Fred----------------------------------------------------
He might be energized with a new position and even if he's just mercurial and lazy but genius-y at times that makes more sense out wide. I know it's close to the dreaded diamond, but yeah size as a back post threat and Albrighton or Beckham style crossing and long passes from wide are things he should logically bring if thrown out there, and he can beat a man, and we don't have any of those 3 things on the right really (Greenwood is a back post threat as a shooter but not in the air).
Rashford/Martial------Greenwood/Martial/Cavani-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pogba
------------------------------VDB-----------------Bruno--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------Fred----------------------------------------------------
He might be energized with a new position and even if he's just mercurial and lazy but genius-y at times that makes more sense out wide. I know it's close to the dreaded diamond, but yeah size as a back post threat and Albrighton or Beckham style crossing and long passes from wide are things he should logically bring if thrown out there, and he can beat a man, and we don't have any of those 3 things on the right really (Greenwood is a back post threat as a shooter but not in the air).
He should. The Vdb signing is a bit weird. He reads the game brilliantly (both on offense and in defense) and he plays his best football in and around either penalty box. We definitely don’t need him in the middle of the park as he’s not very press resistant and does most of his work off the ball and the only thing he would be bringing is a great engine which we have in Fred(who is a bit better on the ball). We definitely don’t need him in the 10 position because Bruno(who is the current caf darling) plays there. We need his game reading at dm but he quit playing there years ago and would need intensive coaching to get back on his learning curve in that position, something I don’t think our current coaching staff can handle. I’ll eat humble pie if I’m wrong, but this seems to be another unplanned signing. Unless we splashed out 40m specifically on a rotation option for Bruno while having holes in dm, cb, rw, lb and now rb.
This seems harsh, he had a pretty damn good tournament in 2018, I remember a lot of people had him as the #2 performing midfielder in the tournament after Modric, and he put up pretty impressive stats in terms of just constantly moving the ball forward to the attackers as I recall.
I remember it being Umtiti, Varane, Pogba and Mbappe as the key players really considering the rest were inconsistent (Kante, Griezmann, Lloris, Matuidi/3rd CM) or playing a simple role well and having great moments (the CBs playing fullbacks, Giroud but no moments)
There is thinking he isn't good right now which is right and fair and there is rewriting history. If many thought he was good during the tournament, it's simply because he was.
I disagree. He has some great moment but at the same time some bad things that he normally does with us, positioning was poor and lost the ball due to unnecessary touches. I can’t say it was wow performance except against the lesser ones.
Even the Belgium game, Belgium dominated the midfield & possession. It’s just that France had solid defense as well as Kante & Matuidi made them thicker to breakthrough.
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