He will stay, purely because nobody else will offer him what we will.
6
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- 9
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 1
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The price that we paid to another team to buy Pogba doesn't mean that he should get far more criticism than anybody else in the team despite him literally outperforming every other player comfortably.
We'd signed Lukaku at that stage who was only slightly cheaper than Pogba, and he was absolutely miles worse that season. It's not an exaggeration to say that he was arguably the worst performing regular starter in the entire league. Yet the difference in criticism between them was staggering. Pogba was held up as 'the virus', the guy who was single-handedly trying to get Mourinho fired (despite the reality being that he was one of two players who originally saved his job the first time he was under pressure), the one who attracted all the attention and the criticism. Meanwhile Lukaku, while getting some criticism, was getting off extremely lightly. As were all the other players in the team when compared to what Pogba was copping.
Pogba absolutely deserves some criticism. Even in that period that I'm defending him for above, there were two or three matches where he was truly disgraceful and deserved massive criticism for those matches. But overall he was our best performing player in a team that was struggling massively, yet to this day people are still brainwashed into thinking that he got Mourinho fired and was the main cause of our problems that season. I honestly don't know how anybody can deny that the level of criticism and hate that he was getting was extremely unfair. It's basically the exact same as if Ronaldo were receiving that level of criticism now; a player who has been somewhat inconsistent and there are question marks over whether he's the best for the club, but ultimately he's still been probably the best player in a season where the rest of the team have absolutely shit the bed.
I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment but what the hell is the bolded part?
I was talking specifically about the first half of 18/19, the season that Mourinho got fired. Pogba, despite the narrative, had been the only player in the entire squad who was roughly 50/50 between good and bad performances. Everybody else had been terrible the entire season, other than Martial and Shaw who had both had a brief period of good form for about a month each but had been poor the rest of the time as well.
He's off to Juventus most likely.
Really talented player, but not a leader. Needs someone else to constantly tell him what to do. No wonder his best years were with Pirlo and VIdal and with us when Zlatan was here keeping him in check.
Really talented player, but not a leader. Needs someone else to constantly tell him what to do. No wonder his best years were with Pirlo and VIdal and with us when Zlatan was here keeping him in check.
The price we paid is obviously directly relevant to the performances expected. Always has been, alway will be. And if Ronaldo had cost us 80m, was still in his prime and produced the patchy form we’ve seen this season then criticism of him (and/or the decision to spend so much money on him) would be 100% justified. The main reason he gets cut a lot of slack is because he’s 37 years old.
Was part of a conversation about Pogba with some lads I used to work with the other day. To add context one of the young lads is Pogba mad. As in loves the guy. Has his pics on his FB profile etc. Another lad was this lads older brother. A UTD fan but not Pogba mad. One guy was an arsenal fan and a Liverpool fan.
What surprised me was the Pogba mad one pretty much kept saying things I've read on here (which slate Pogba) and the tried to offer defences of him. Yet the Arsenal and Liverpool fans were sort of "sticking up for Pogba". But not in a derogatory manner or anything.
The sort of things being said, by the non UTD fans, was that the Pogba "incidences" are made out to be regular (almost weekly) events. So his agent saying things. When they are actually small in number but just repeated over and over by media/fans etc. His social media is in generally not that interesting. Just pics of him and family etc.
Now I don't really follow social media and what not but can people who say "but his agent" or "his brother" shed some light on to how regular these things occurred? Or was it one off things at certain points that just get regurgitated?
What surprised me was the Pogba mad one pretty much kept saying things I've read on here (which slate Pogba) and the tried to offer defences of him. Yet the Arsenal and Liverpool fans were sort of "sticking up for Pogba". But not in a derogatory manner or anything.
The sort of things being said, by the non UTD fans, was that the Pogba "incidences" are made out to be regular (almost weekly) events. So his agent saying things. When they are actually small in number but just repeated over and over by media/fans etc. His social media is in generally not that interesting. Just pics of him and family etc.
Now I don't really follow social media and what not but can people who say "but his agent" or "his brother" shed some light on to how regular these things occurred? Or was it one off things at certain points that just get regurgitated?
Quite the catch 22 he finds himself in. If he stays, he is a mercenary.
Criticism? Yes. Criticism on the level that Pogba received? No. That's the key aspect. How ridiculously over-the-top and unfair it was. Even taking the price we paid into account, you ignore my point about Lukaku. I would also say Maguire's performances in the last two seasons were similar to what Pogba's were, if not a bit worse, yet he hasn't got anywhere near the level of criticism and focus on him until this season where he has completely fallen apart.
What Pogba got that season was two-fold (in most seasons to some extent, but I focus on that one because of how blatant the hypocrisy was). The criticism on his performances were similar to what Maguire has got this season, if not worse (despite his performances actually being more like Ronaldo's). And on top of that was the constant criticism about him as a person (the virus, etc), despite basically every single player and manager he's ever had anything to do with signing his praises, other than Mourinho of course who just so happens to be the one constant in numerous teams where the dressing room falls apart.
Well going by his Instagram he's going back to Juventus.
Or perhaps not I didn't know Dybala was leaving
Or perhaps not I didn't know Dybala was leaving
True he got carried away by his dislike for the player.
But equally the criticsm of Souness got carried away.
The main thrust of his argument was correct. We were playing Pogba as a CM and at this level he doesn't seem to understand the role.
So you're talking about a player who upped his game as a big feck you to Mou, decided he'd done enough and hasn't produced anywhere near that form since? If anything it pisses me off more knowing that Pogba can play a lot better as we witnessed during that period.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
What part of 'Pogba had been our best player for the first half of the season while Mourinho was still there', is a big feck you to Mourinho? What part of him being our best player in that period was him getting Mourinho sacked? That's the narrative that was pushed and it has somehow become fact in so many peoples eyes, despite the reality of what happened.
Pogba has always been inconsistent for us. He's had good periods and he's had bad. But so has literally every other single player in the squad. From the players who were supposed to be just squad players, to the first teamers, to the big money buys. Every single one of them. For the first three or four seasons that Pogba was here he was arguably our best player over that period of time despite how inconsistent he was, simply because he was the best of an equally inconsistent bunch. So why was he by far the most criticised, most disliked and most focused on?
Obviously the last two seasons have been a different story, but the constant injuries (and possibly Covid) seem to have taken their toll and he's physically declined. I also suspect the constant abuse has led him to mentally check-out to some extent.
I didn't say he got Mou sacked. I said he only truly came into form when Mou left. Under Mou he started the season ok. Scored a few goals in the first few weeks of the season but then lost the captaincy after the teams performances starting dropping at the end of September and was then labelled a virus by Mou for reasons only he knew.
So yes. It was a big feck you to Mou when he started playing like the player we all thought we signed. If I didn't see those 2-3 months I probably wouldn't of cared less for Pogba at all but watching those performances then turn into the odd moment of magic whenever he felt like turning up really did piss me off knowing he did have the skill set to maintain a high level but didn't have the attitude to carry it out. There isn't a lot of difference between an average player with a great attitude over a great player with an average attitude. Neither should be starters for a club like United.
He didn't only come into form after Mourinho was gone. At the start of the season we had only two players playing well - Pogba and Shaw. Then they dropped off and the entire team was shit. Then we had a period where two players played well again - Pogba and Martial. Then they dropped off and once again the entire team was shit. Then Mourinho got fired. So once again I ask why did Pogba get the vast majority of the blame despite every single one of the other players being worse?
Yes, the period immediately after Mourinho got fired was the best Pogba has ever played for us. But it was also the best period that the team as a whole has probably had since Fergie retired, as it appeared the entire team had had a load taken off their shoulders. It's also worth noting that that period was just about the only time in the entire six years that Pogba has been here that he played in a similar style and position that he played in Juventus, and that many of us have said we should have been using him that way the entire time. Having Matic and Herrera beside him providing both the defensive stability and helping control the game, we actually had a balanced midfield for the first time and it allowed Pogba to focus more on the areas of the pitch he could really hurt the opposition. Then Herrera got injured and we pushed Pogba back into a deeper position, and once again both he and the team as a whole dropped right off. Actually there was a brief period in his first season where we played him with Carrick and Herrera beside him, and once again that was probably the best we played that season. Those two brief periods are literally the only two times in the last six years that we had that style of balanced midfield, despite it surely being obvious that that is what we should have been aiming for the entire time.
Once again I will stress I'm not saying Pogba shouldn't be taking some blame and criticism. He should have done better overall, and there were periods where he was truly terrible. But the same can be said for every other player, including other big money signings, but nobody else has received anything like the same level of focus and criticism on them. Maguire this season is the only one close, but it's taken a sustained run of him performing far far worse than Pogba ever did in his first four seasons for that to happen.
You’re absolutely right....and anyone disagreeing can look back through Pogba’s performance threads over his time here rather than relying on their own memory which in most cases is massively distorted by emotion.
But you’re wasting your breath.
The majority on here are entrenched in the belief that Pogba is a virus, has had only a handful of good games and been one of our worst players, the evidence is their to back up exactly what you’re saying in detail that season, from his first season to last season from December onwards people have forgotten how well he played after Covid and before and after injury.
It’s narrative that’s followed. It’s not factual. Like saying Pogba decided he’d done enough to give an up yours to Jose then stopped playing again. It’s absolute nonsense.
Pogba is an interesting case.
And I think the discussion has often lacked nuance from both sides.
Pogba in his best matches for us has been fantastic. But those matches have been very few.
Simply blaming Pogba for that is not really fair as he has been used on many different positions and has never had the most optimal partners in midfield, often being asked to do a job which doesnt match his qualities. A case eerily similar to Donnie.
And I do agree with the sentiment that the media have been very harsh on him, especially considering how they have been running PR for Maguire.
I will say, however, that Mino's constant digs at the club and nonsense in the press, especially right before important matches, has not been a help for Pogba. If anything they have ruined whatever chance Pogba may have had to get the fans behind him.
I have to say I am very curious as to how a Pogba would perform under Ten Hag, a manager known for elevating players that where not considered good enough by others.
This got me thinking, I suppose it’s a term that is open to interpretation but I’m thinking which players have been ‘bang average’ in the last six years to be called a bang average players...
Alex Telles
Diogo Dalot
Andreas Pereira
Morgan Schneiderlin
Marcos Rojo
DVB
Darmian
I’ve had a look at who we’ve signed post SAF and for me I’d say he’s been a better signing, in that he’s outperformed all of the below in his time here...and evidence would support this, even if narrative doesn’t
Mata
Fellaini
Di Maria
Herrera
Rojo
Blind
Martial
Schneiderlin
Delay
Damian
Schwienstiger
Mkhitaryan
Bailly
Lukaku
Matic
Lindelof
Sanchez
Fred
Dalot
Maguire
AWB
James
DVB
Telles
Looks like he’s heading back to Juventus unless PSG can come through with a massive offer before then
Pogba's form at United has pretty much mirrored the team. It's been a case of peaks and troughs. His form when Ole first took over was incredible, at a totally world class level but for the last few games of that season he was absolutely rancid. He started this season on fire before descensing into a mediocre at best level. I think you can credibly say that he's been average overall because of this but he has produced some of the best performances of the post Fergie era in his time here, although on too rare occasions.
Ok if we’re going with this...who’s been better than average in the last six years?
Id go :-
Zlatan (for impact more than performance level, Pogba performed better)
Bruno (see Zlatan, but his last 16 months have been below average)
DeGea (but had two seasons at almost Sunday league standard in terms of the level of errors and regularity of them)
Struggling beyond this. Do you have anyone you’d add to this list?
I know I’m considered a super fan on here but I think even your post lacks nuance
You talk about best matches and them being very few....but where’s the in between ? From December last season he was somewhere between good and fantastic most games with the odd poor performance mostly while we waited for EL final. Every season he’s been here, his good performances seem forgotten were they not fantastic.
Also any comparison to DVB regardless of context lacks nuance. Pogba has played over 250 games being able to adapt to varying degrees to different roles to the extent that he’s been a regular every season under every manager. DVB hasn’t managed to do anything. He’s a literal 0 out of 10 signing to date.
Agree with the sentiment though and that Pogba and Riola have done nothing that would have helped to build the relationship with the fans...while the fans held a grudge from the get go.
I know I’m considered a super fan on here but I think even your post lacks nuance
You talk about best matches and them being very few....but where’s the in between ? From December last season he was somewhere between good and fantastic most games with the odd poor performance mostly while we waited for EL final. Every season he’s been here, his good performances seem forgotten were they not fantastic.
Also any comparison to DVB regardless of context lacks nuance. Pogba has played over 250 games being able to adapt to varying degrees to different roles to the extent that he’s been a regular every season under every manager. DVB hasn’t managed to do anything. He’s a literal 0 out of 10 signing to date.
Agree with the sentiment though and that Pogba and Riola have done nothing that would have helped to build the relationship with the fans...while the fans held a grudge from the get go.
Allow me to elaborate then
What I meant was we have had a few matches where he has lived up to that pricetag. And while the price was not something he chose, I think its fair as fans to expect a level at least close to matching the price.
I think he has been world class and downright bad in close to equal amount of matches, which is quite few. In between that I think I rate his overall performances slighty lower than yours, but with the caveat I added in the first post, that he has largely been misused.
Which brings us to my comparrison to DvB. DvB has been completely misused and his midfield partners have on several occassions simply not understand his runs etc.
He is very much a system player.
Overall though Pogbas stint here has not lived up to what anyone hoped. I dont think anyone can argue that. My issue is when all the blame for that is put on the player.
I’d definitely agree that his time has not lived up to what was hoped….not even close. You’d have hoped for greatness and that hasn’t been the case. That being said as a season ticket holder I have enjoyed watching him at OT about 70% of his time, which can’t be said for many others on my side.Allow me to elaborate then
What I meant was we have had a few matches where he has lived up to that pricetag. And while the price was not something he chose, I think its fair as fans to expect a level at least close to matching the price.
I think he has been world class and downright bad in close to equal amount of matches, which is quite few. In between that I think I rate his overall performances slighty lower than yours, but with the caveat I added in the first post, that he has largely been misused.
Which brings us to my comparrison to DvB. DvB has been completely misused and his midfield partners have on several occassions simply not understand his runs etc.
He is very much a system player.
Overall though Pogbas stint here has not lived up to what anyone hoped. I dont think anyone can argue that. My issue is when all the blame for that is put on the player.
I can understand that. When we have seen some of his magic I have thoroughly enjoyed it as well. Which is why I would love to what a Ten Hag could do with him.
He can go back to playing on the left wing at Juventus with Chiesa, when he returns on the right.
Pogba's stay at United will be remembered by his agent being money orientated. His form from being good, bad, injuries, and indifferent all in good measure. He has also had to endure playing with some overhyped players. The mismanagement of the club from the top to coaches.
The players purchased over the last 10 years were mostly good players in their respective systems at previous clubs. It seems they have regressed by being at United.
The players purchased over the last 10 years were mostly good players in their respective systems at previous clubs. It seems they have regressed by being at United.
Why?
Has to be one of the most overrated players ever. 5 years playing average to crap for United and demands higher salary than Salah. He is a 100k per week player, nothing more.
I think a large part of the criticism it is the intuition that Pogba has the talent and ability, but has not had the consistent application playing for us. Rightly or wrongly, people tend to look down more on players with talent who are perceived not the apply themselves enough, versus players without talent who work hard.
So the more talented the player is, the harsher the criticism if he doesn't apply himself to match his talent, and deliver the consistent performances.
More than anything, those lists serve to highlight how truly awful the clubs' recruitment has been post-SAF. It cost the club somewhere in the region of £1 billion to acquire that useless lot. One billion! The shame of it.
Pogba may or may not have proven more valuable than those listed above - I honestly don't know one way or the other. I'd imagine he has better stats in terms of goals/assists than most if not all of them, presumably because he's played more games overall? Either way, the list above is hardly what you would class as healthy competition for players of Pogba's ability.
Raiola has been playing games with the club for a number of years money for his client and himself (understand it's his job). Pogba has just played along with his agent likely losing support amongst the fan base. Once that happens you play safe fearing mistakes and jeers. That is not Pogba's game.
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I'd say Fred is the only one that is debatable. Obviously he was atrocious in his first season, the second season I'd probably give Fred the slight edge and then he's been comfortably better in the last two seasons. Possibly Herrera as well, although his period here was during Pogba's better form so perhaps not.
Yes I agree
Pogba doesn't want to play or feature against Palace for fear of being targeted by United fans.
Right decision
There are barely any class players left at Juve.
I think that lowball offer he received from Juventus is probably the best on the table to be honest.
Pogba sign da ting! (With Juventus and feck off).
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