Paul Pogba is not lazy

Snow

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Those stats aren't per 90, which means that they are highly flawed.

Edit: By the way, in terms of work rate per 90 is also a flawed statistic because the more minutes you play the more likely your performances will drop within the game. Players that leave the field after 60 minutes or only play 30 minutes should have an higher average per 90.
Statistics aren't flawed, how they are perceived are often wrong.
 

JPRouve

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Statistics aren't flawed, how they are perceived are often wrong.
It is flawed in the context of this conversation which is about work rate. It's not a general statement.
 

StrettyEnder07

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"Rest of the drivel" :lol: But honestly, what has happened to this great team.

Maybe we should do something similar to the Grasshoppers Zurich fans. They got relegated for the 1st time in 70 years. At 4-0 down in Luzern fans moved pitchside and threatened to storm the pitch. Demanded players hand over shirts & socks. Wanted them to crawl back to changing room like dogs, in just pants. Game abandoned. :lol:
Haha I am actually all for this!!

Pogba stats stand up this season but dear me the inconsistency has just been incredible. I do feel sorry for him to be fair as the standard of football around him, the lack of movement up front, lack of urgency, belief and desire.

I'm not one for saying its all him and if he wasn't about we would suddenly being one of the best in the country.

90% of the players have been worse than Pogba this season, why the club is in such a sorry state.

There are a load of players who need to leave before Pogba does but it just looks to me like he is done and wants to be pretty much anywhere else.
 

Snow

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It is flawed in the context of this conversation which is about work rate. It's not a general statement.
No, the stats are always the same, they are just numbers. How they are contextualized are absolutely often wrong.
 

NoPace

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This season, Paul Pogba ranks 1st for United in:

goals/xGoals
assists/xAssists
goal-involvements
xGChain
chances cheated
dribbles
touches
passing chains
progressive passes
through balls
duels won
If he'd missed the year I honestly think we'd have finished 8th. We really are a mess. Though I guess Chelsea were similar with Hazard and he's leaving too.

Might bet on Madrid to win the title next year.

As to the thread, I think it's clear Pogba has been lazy for United for a while because he doesn't respect the quality of his teammates or the managers and like some top players but not others, that impacts his effort. He's not wrong in his analysis, he is too good for us at the moment, showed that at the World Cup in which he was the best midfielder on the best team (even if Modric was better overall). But he could have dragged us into the CL if he'd been at his best, such were the struggles of the 3 big London clubs who were competing on two fronts.

Assuming the reports are true. Pogba's disaffected attitude seems to have cost him some support from some Madrid decision makers, but I'm not surprised Zidane wants him after his World Cup, and I can't imagine Madrid bringing back Zidane after how awful they were without him and not letting him replace Modric and Cristiano basically however he fancies.

I expect Pogba to maybe struggle a bit but then be brilliant for Madrid, playing much harder than he does here, because he'll want to impress at Madrid, he'll be chastened by being outplayed by teammates if he doesn't (and even benched at times) and because he won't be under as much pressure (some of it self-imposed) to create out of nothing and thereby take too long on the ball. Also Madrid need to replace some of the physicality and athleticism Cristiano provided going forward and Pogba should be a nice fit in that role doing more off the ball than he does here because guys like Hazard, Asensio and Kroos can get him the ball and create.
 

JPRouve

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No, the stats are always the same, they are just numbers. How they are contextualized are absolutely often wrong.
I'm pretty sure that we are thinking the same thing.
 

finneh

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Distance covered per 90 mins (PL top 6 midfielders):

14 Milner
13.9
13.8
13.7
13.6
13.5 Ramsey
13.4
13.3
13.2 B.Silva
13.1 Guendozi, Eriksen
13 Fred, Herrera, McTominay
12.9 Henderson
12.8 Torreira, Jorginho, Matic
12.7 Kovacic, Mikhitaryan, Kante
12.6 Dier
12.5 D.Silva, Gundogan
12.4 Keita
12.3 Fabinho
12.2 Winks
12.1 Wijnaldum
12
11.9
11.8 Fernandinho
11.7
11.6 Ozil
11.5 Pogba
11.4
11.3
11.2
11.1 Sissoko
 

noodlehair

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I wouldn't say how lazy he is or how much running he does is his problem. It's more his lack of ability to pay attention and lack of appreciation of what the team needs him to do.

It's not like you see him sulking or walking around the pitch like you do one or two others.

I just think ole needs to stop going on about building a team around him and concentrate on just building a team and letting Pogba earn a place in it
 

Pogue Mahone

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Distance covered per 90 mins (PL top 6 midfielders):

14 Milner
13.9
13.8
13.7
13.6
13.5 Ramsey
13.4
13.3
13.2 B.Silva
13.1 Guendozi, Eriksen
13 Fred, Herrera, McTominay
12.9 Henderson
12.8 Torreira, Jorginho, Matic
12.7 Kovacic, Mikhitaryan, Kante
12.6 Dier
12.5 D.Silva, Gundogan
12.4 Keita
12.3 Fabinho
12.2 Winks
12.1 Wijnaldum
12
11.9
11.8 Fernandinho
11.7
11.6 Ozil
11.5 Pogba
11.4
11.3
11.2
11.1 Sissoko
Decent showing from our other CMs. Surprising, considering how often our team metrics for workrate are so atrocious.

Just goes to show how it just takes a few slackers to mess up the stats for a team.

EDIT: Maybe also shows how hard Pogba’s CM partners have to work to cover for his lack of defensive effort?
 
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FujiVice

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Sad thing is, he's obviously by far our best player by a country mile. We need to keep him if we have any chance at doing anything next year. As much as a twat he comes across, we him in this team, not elsewhere. Lukaku, Sanchez etc can all feck off though.
 

Bobski

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Distance covered per 90 mins (PL top 6 midfielders):

14 Milner
13.9
13.8
13.7
13.6
13.5 Ramsey
13.4
13.3
13.2 B.Silva
13.1 Guendozi, Eriksen
13 Fred, Herrera, McTominay
12.9 Henderson
12.8 Torreira, Jorginho, Matic
12.7 Kovacic, Mikhitaryan, Kante
12.6 Dier
12.5 D.Silva, Gundogan
12.4 Keita
12.3 Fabinho
12.2 Winks
12.1 Wijnaldum
12
11.9
11.8 Fernandinho
11.7
11.6 Ozil
11.5 Pogba
11.4
11.3
11.2
11.1 Sissoko
That is remarkable from Milner, 33 years old, started playing in the first team at Leeds at 16. Beast, going to be doing weekend ironman comps when he retires.
 

Kamprad

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Can someone please post his breathing percentage. How many times does he breath in and out during a game? Would be nice to compare to Messi.
 

Hugh Jass

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Distance covered per 90 mins (PL top 6 midfielders):

14 Milner
13.9
13.8
13.7
13.6
13.5 Ramsey
13.4
13.3
13.2 B.Silva
13.1 Guendozi, Eriksen
13 Fred, Herrera, McTominay
12.9 Henderson
12.8 Torreira, Jorginho, Matic
12.7 Kovacic, Mikhitaryan, Kante
12.6 Dier
12.5 D.Silva, Gundogan
12.4 Keita
12.3 Fabinho
12.2 Winks
12.1 Wijnaldum
12
11.9
11.8 Fernandinho
11.7
11.6 Ozil
11.5 Pogba
11.4
11.3
11.2
11.1 Sissoko
Worse than Ozil. Jesus christ.
 

Crashoutcassius

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I think the issue is he is our best player but is very inconsistent. Any excuse can be made for this inconsistency but we are split between people who have bought it for 3 years and people that aren't really buying it. He played well for a few weeks and in my eyes that hurts the case of any excuse for his performances. That said I hope he either stays or we get 160m for him
 

SlimDizzle075

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I love how If you point out any negatives in Pogba's game you "want him gone" or are a "hater" or you are "trashing our best most creative player". When in fact most of the time none of those realities are true. I like Pogba as a personality he seems like a good guy, a nice guy. He is funny, and I imagine would be fun to play and train with. I think he is an immensely talented as a player, but the truth is there are things he does on the pitch (and off for that matter) that annoy me to no end. And these things are highlighted when United is not winning.

Namely his lack of urgency, and the fact that he just can't be bothered sometimes. You rarely see him sacrificing himself in the form of hustle and fight. and YES - This is a laziness/mentality issue. And its not up for debate. Its real. It is Something that can be proven with statistics as well as the eyeball test. but me pointing that out doesn't mean i want him gone or a i don't recognize, not only his ability and importance but his potential as well. What it means is that I can't stand watching a player loose possession of a ball, go flatfooted and stand there and then watch as the guy that took it springs into action, only to go jogging back into position getting there just in time for the other team to create an opportunity. It infuriates me. This willingness to fight and hustle is not just asked but flat out demanded from players with a fraction of his talent, yet because he is a World Cup winner and the most naturally gifted player on the squad who is struggling HE should get a pass? That's just not reality. I tell my son every week in his academy games NEVER be comfortable letting another player do YOUR hardwork for you, if you loose possession you track back with venom. When You have to defend you do it with discipline.

I don't want Pogba gone. I want Pogba to play better and more consistently. I want him to change his attitude. The frustrations come from the fact that his limitations on the pitch have nothing to do with his physical attributes. He is extremely gifted. Great feet, pace, strength, passing range, dribble, massive physique etc. His limitations are down to the moments when he chooses to work for the team and when he simply can't be bothered. And whether his team mates are as equally talented as him as Nothing to do with that. In his defense I see a lot of "whataboutism". And what I mean by that is defending Paul Pogba by pointing out that the players around him have limitations. This simply doesn't stand up. Pogba's game is Pogba's game and Lindgard lacking the ability to finish, or Matic being an Oak Tree, or Lukaku having literal bricks for feet has absolutely nothing to do with Pogba losing possession in the final 3rd and then slowly jogging back into the picture just in time to be part of the newly building attack again. None of these things have anything to do with each other and they all stand up for criticism on their own. I keep reading these horrible self loathing fanboy comments about how "poor old world class Pogba is surrounded by shit" and how sorry people feel for him. F that noise - I'm sorry but i don't buy into it. This kid could be a GOD at Old Trafford.

ELITE/World Class players don't simply play for them. they make their team mates batter. an Elite player is a player that understands not only his own abilities and short comings and how to be successful within them, but also those of his team mates as well and is willing to do whatever needs to be done within that framework to make the team successful. And as absolutely gifted as Paul is, I don't see that in him - not on a consistent basis anyway, whether he just doesn't understand that? or doesn't think on that level, He isn't there yet. It's like this. Pogba knows that in attack if he uses a through ball from deep, or a long ball and puts Rashford in the position to run a ball down in the channel, Rashford is fast, hungry, and he will get there. If he plays the ball to Martial on the wing Pogba almost ALWAYS drops into support, because he knows Martial is going to try to dribble in and that's where he needs to be for either the lay off, or when Martial loses possession. He should also have the same understanding with the defensive aspect of the game. that Matic due to his lack of speed and immobility can't mark multiple players at the same time. So if you loose the ball and aren't getting back putting in work we are going to eventually fall short. you bust your ass and you go help because it makes the TEAM better when you do. Pogba for all intents and purposes with all of his gifts is not consistently willing to make that type of sacrifice for his team.

And when you factor his fat slimeball agent and the constant stories that he wants to leave and is being shopped around Europe, stories that NO ONE in camp Pogba does ANYTHING to silence or deny. The guy is seriously frustrating.

YES WE NEED POGBA, he is strong, intelligent, can pass, shoot and dribble, I've run down the list before. NO We wouldn't be "better" without him. but we also need Pogba to grow up, step up, and take the badge on the front as seriously as he does the name on the back. and NO he isn't the only player in this lineup that has that issue. he is however the most gifted, decorated, and expensive one and that is simply the reality comes with his position in the game, united and life in general. I know if he is that miserable he can come sit in my cubical for 55 hours a week and I'd happily bust a lung till i puked for United. (of course he would get fired from my job and wouldn't be good enough for his but that's a different post all together)
 
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JPRouve

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@finneh Are you sure about these stats? According to the PL Milner was at 12.7km/90 after 773 minutes, he added 1012 minutes and your stats would indicate a significant difference between the first 774 minutes and the rest.
 
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finneh

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@finneh Are you sure about these stats? According to the PL Milner was at 12.7km/90 after 773 minutes, he added 1012 minutes and your stats would indicate a significant difference between the first 774 minutes and the rest.
The PL website states he ran 250.65km in 1786 mins. It's possible he had more sub appearances towards the end of the season giving him a higher pro rata average per 90 mins?
 

JPRouve

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The PL website states he ran 250.65km in 1786 mins. It's possible he had more sub appearances towards the end of the season giving him a higher pro rata average per 90 mins?
These figures give 12.63km/90, unless I'm mistaken.
 

Denis79

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I love how If you point out any negatives in Pogba's game you "want him gone" or are a "hater" or you are "trashing our best most creative player". When in fact most of the time none of those realities are true. I like Pogba as a personality he seems like a good guy, a nice guy. He is funny, and I imagine would be fun to play and train with. I think he is an immensely talented as a player, but the truth is there are things he does on the pitch (and off for that matter) that annoy me to no end. And these things are highlighted when United is not winning.

Namely his lack of urgency, and the fact that he just can't be bothered sometimes. You rarely see him sacrificing himself in the form of hustle and fight. and YES - This is a laziness/mentality issue. And its not up for debate. Its real. It is Something that can be proven with statistics as well as the eyeball test. but me pointing that out doesn't mean i want him gone or a i don't recognize, not only his ability and importance but his potential as well. What it means is that I can't stand watching a player loose possession of a ball, go flatfooted and stand there and then watch as the guy that took it springs into action, only to go jogging back into position getting there just in time for the other team to create an opportunity. It infuriates me. This willingness to fight and hustle is not just asked but flat out demanded from players with a fraction of his talent, yet because he is a World Cup winner and the most naturally gifted player on the squad who is struggling HE should get a pass? That's just not reality. I tell my son every week in his academy games NEVER be comfortable letting another player do YOUR hardwork for you, if you loose possession you track back with venom. When You have to defend you do it with discipline.

I don't want Pogba gone. I want Pogba to play better and more consistently. I want him to change his attitude. The frustrations come from the fact that his limitations on the pitch have nothing to do with his physical attributes. He is extremely gifted. Great feet, pace, strength, passing range, dribble, massive physique etc. His limitations are down to the moments when he chooses to work for the team and when he simply can't be bothered. And whether his team mates are as equally talented as him as Nothing to do with that. In his defense I see a lot of "whataboutism". And what I mean by that is defending Paul Pogba by pointing out that the players around him have limitations. This simply doesn't stand up. Pogba's game is Pogba's game and Lindgard lacking the ability to finish, or Matic being an Oak Tree, or Lukaku having literal bricks for feet has absolutely nothing to do with Pogba losing possession in the final 3rd and then slowly jogging back into the picture just in time to be part of the newly building attack again. None of these things have anything to do with each other and they all stand up for criticism on their own. I keep reading these horrible self loathing fanboy comments about how "poor old world class Pogba is surrounded by shit" and how sorry people feel for him. F that noise - I'm sorry but i don't buy into it. This kid could be a GOD at Old Trafford.

ELITE/World Class players don't simply play for them. they make their team mates batter. an Elite player is a player that understands not only his own abilities and short comings and how to be successful within them, but also those of his team mates as well and is willing to do whatever needs to be done within that framework to make the team successful. And as absolutely gifted as Paul is, I don't see that in him - not on a consistent basis anyway, whether he just doesn't understand that? or doesn't think on that level, He isn't there yet. It's like this. Pogba knows that in attack if he uses a through ball from deep, or a long ball and puts Rashford in the position to run a ball down in the channel, Rashford is fast, hungry, and he will get there. If he plays the ball to Martial on the wing Pogba almost ALWAYS drops into support, because he knows Martial is going to try to dribble in and that's where he needs to be for either the lay off, or when Martial loses possession. He should also have the same understanding with the defensive aspect of the game. that Matic due to his lack of speed and immobility can't mark multiple players at the same time. So if you loose the ball and aren't getting back putting in work we are going to eventually fall short. you bust your ass and you go help because it makes the TEAM better when you do. Pogba for all intents and purposes with all of his gifts is not consistently willing to make that type of sacrifice for his team.

And when you factor his fat slimeball agent and the constant stories that he wants to leave and is being shopped around Europe, stories that NO ONE in camp Pogba does ANYTHING to silence or deny. The guy is seriously frustrating.

YES WE NEED POGBA, he is strong, intelligent, can pass, shoot and dribble, I've run down the list before. NO We wouldn't be "better" without him. but we also need Pogba to grow up, step up, and take the badge on the front as seriously as he does the name on the back. and NO he isn't the only player in this lineup that has that issue. he is however the most gifted, decorated, and expensive one and that is simply the reality comes with his position in the game, united and life in general. I know if he is that miserable he can come sit in my cubical for 55 hours a week and I'd happily bust a lung till i puked for United. (of course he would get fired from my job and wouldn't be good enough for his but that's a different post all together)
Well written and I agree with a lot of it.
 

elnorte

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Sad thing is, he's obviously by far our best player by a country mile. We need to keep him if we have any chance at doing anything next year. As much as a twat he comes across, we him in this team, not elsewhere. Lukaku, Sanchez etc can all feck off though.
Maybe we can hit reset? Start again without him?
 

RooneyLegend

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Decent showing from our other CMs. Surprising, considering how often our team metrics for workrate are so atrocious.

Just goes to show how it just takes a few slackers to mess up the stats for a team.

EDIT: Maybe also shows how hard Pogba’s CM partners have to work to cover for his lack of defensive effort?
It's the least they can do considering he covers for their lack of ability.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Overall, he's not a lazy (adjective) player.

But he can be lazy (verb).
Defending only though = when we don't have the ball, most obvious when we're under attack.
Some games, he clearly don't want to defend full 90 mins.
Some games can be so inconsistent, eg. in a game, one moment he's defending, the other moment he just don't bother to get back.
Some games, he can be fully focus helping our defenders, making high press consistently, rush back to defend, top defensive workrate. :devil:

Clear difference between these two mind. He did both at different times.
  • being lazy and don't want to help defend eg. standing around usually higher up the pitch or just walking back or lose the ball then don't bother to get it back.
  • good intent to help defend but lose focus and having no sense how to defend properly eg. him losing his mark in open play or set-piece defending.
Thing is, he's not really that good at defending which is not a problem. Team game. Plenty more players not good at defending, but effort helps. He only need to do the minimum, which he doesn't do consistently. Just drop back, cutting down the spaces helps teammates, nicked the ball at any opportunities, help pressure opponent, etc. The problem is, our squad doesn't play as a team, and when the rare games they finally do clicks, after sometime very soon, they'll forget about how to do it. I blame poor quality of coaching and lack of clear system by the many managers for this. His high pressing is good though.

Not all the time he's being lazy when defending.

When we're attacking, Pogba is never lazy.
No doubt about that, even sprinting from deep to the touchline to join attack, lung bursting.
He have strong appetite to attack, lover of attack in football so to say.
 

Chesterlestreet

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The numbers above are higher than what I get here (based on the official PL stats at season's end).

Pogba is on 10,42 per 90 by my calculations.

Others:

Herrera 11,70
Matic 11,52
McTominay 11,74
Fred 11,73
Pereira 11.97
[Fellaini 11,64]

Milner 12,63
Ramsey 12,18
B Silva 11,95
Eriksen 11,82

...

Özil 10,51
 

RedDevilCanuck

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Name another player expected to dominate creatively and defensively like Pogba.

This player does not exist. It is not possible to score and assist at Pogba's level and dominate defensively and also expected to create from deep.

For france he had so many other attacking options that he stayed deep and used his long range passing.

Either play him in this role or the 2004-2009 Rooney role 10.
 

OldSchoolManc

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He disrupts any kind of team solidity.
Team mates have to cover his absences in parts of the pitch.
He slows down any rhythm we have.
We are better without. Build a TEAM, that doesn’t have an engine part flying about and causing damage.
 

Sir Avram Glazer

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Pogba is not lazy, not at all. The problem is that he doesn't concentrate. He works hard, but fails to recognise when he should be tracking an opponents run, and it happens time and time again. That's equally as damaging as the his creativity is brilliant, and it really is a good enough reason to want him gone.
 

donnwyt

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Overall, he's not a lazy (adjective) player.
When we're attacking, Pogba is never lazy.
No doubt about that, even sprinting from deep to the touchline to join attack, lung bursting.
He have strong appetite to attack, lover of attack in football so to say.
I concur with this, I think this is why Jose is so adamant on getting a couple of new defenders. Had we a solid defence, we don't need all of our midfielders running back to defend and have no one to transition to attack.
 

finneh

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Distance covered per 90 mins (PL top 6 midfielders):

12.6 Milner
12.5
12.4
12.3
12.2
12.1 Ramsey
12.0
11.9 B.Silva
11.8 Eriksen, Guendouzi
11.7 Herrera, Fred, McTominay
11.6 Henderson
11.5 Torreira, Jorginho, Matic
11.4 Kovacic, Mkhitaryan, Kante, Dier
11.3 D.Silva, Gundogan
11.2
11.1 Keita, Fabinho
11.0 Winks
10.9 Wijnaldum
10.8
10.7
10.6
10.5 Ozil
10.4 Pogba
10.3
10.2
10.1
10.0 Sissoko
Values corrected due to my (mindless) error in calculating per 100 mins rather than per 90 mins.
 

Fletchageddon

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It’s not really a matter of what he does but what he needs to do. Regardless of the number of KMs attributed to him, he’s clearly not doing enough for the team.

The basis of the problem Is that he is not a team player. He was until that PSG game then he became billy big balls again and we all know what’s happened since.

When all the martials and pogbas push in the right direction happy days. If they don’t, get rid of them.