Paul Pogba revisited

[SungSam7]

Ridiculous sentiment

Come on, you can't tell me that around the time he signed, the club turned from being professional to dancing around on tiktok after poor results. I don't see many videos coming from Real Madrid or Barcelona dressing rooms unless they have won something.

We went from Rooney, Giggs, Vidic and Ferdinand to Pogba, Lingard and Rashford. I don't think it was a coincidence that SAF let him go, then Pogba comes back and the 3 amigos are constantly on social media. Lingard is selling a clothing line of his.... not sure SAF would be allowing a player use his status as Man Utd player to sell branded clothes of his that easily if his performances on the pitch didn't match it. We seen Beckham gone and one of the reasons was his media antics was getting too much even as far as his haircuts.


Sing and dance all you want but you better be at the top of the pyramid and keep winning. Otherwise it doesn't look good. And from there I feel the standard was set in the dressing room. Players have stayed longer than managers, so what really was the consequences?

 

[Offside]

Pogba was scapegoated for me in an era that where we where still considered that we should be a top team.

He was class and those around him were not to the level required. Over time the scapegoating, playing with an underperforming team and the injuries did eventually catch up to him but that's besides the point really

Whilst this is true to a certain extent, he didn’t fulfil his potential here and went through periods where he seemed to even lack basic effort and common sense on the pitch. Sure he’s got a good highlight reel when you look back and he’s miles better than other midfielders we’ve bought, but the reality doesn’t change: he didn’t work out as well as we had hoped.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Whilst this is true to a certain extent, he didn’t fulfil his potential here and went through periods where he seemed to even lack basic effort and common sense on the pitch. Sure he’s got a good highlight reel when you look back and he’s miles better than other midfielders we’ve bought, but the reality doesn’t change: he didn’t work out as well as we had hoped.

This is exactly it.

The season he somehow got in the team of the EPL , he showed unreal ability for 2 months of the season (exactly around the time they voted for it). Just after Jose got sacked (Halfway through the season) he clicked into a gear we saw for 2 months and never ever saw again. Almost like he wanted to showcase what we didn’t get most of the time!

I remember fans defending him consistently for his lethargic displays as if we were watching different games. People acting like our eyes were deceiving us and he was in fact trying but it just wasn’t working for him.

And I don’t believe for a second his injuries were all legit. No problem with Juve and then it becomes a problem at United where he was unhappy for the majority of his contract. Also seemed to be fit for France when they needed him.

Supposed to be a lovely guy and seems like those around him badly advised and used him. But his attitude and application (or quite often lack of)a massive problem.

 

[CMRobbo7]

This is exactly it.

The season he somehow got in the team of the EPL , he showed unreal ability for 2 months of the season (exactly around the time they voted for it). Just after Jose got sacked (Halfway through the season) he clicked into a gear we saw for 2 months and never ever saw again. Almost like he wanted to showcase what we didn’t get most of the time!

I remember fans defending him consistently for his lethargic displays as if we were watching different games. People acting like our eyes were deceiving us and he was in fact trying but it just wasn’t working for him.

And I don’t believe for a second his injuries were all legit. No problem with Juve and then it becomes a problem at United where he was unhappy for the majority of his contract. Also seemed to be fit for France when they needed him.

Supposed to be a lovely guy and seems like those around him badly advised and used him. But his attitude and application (or quite often lack of)a massive problem.

Was that the period he was played in his best position? Then we changed formation, he was pushed further back, then he got injured?

The best part of all the guff people write is that he feigned injury. The poor fecker had to film himself coming round from an operation!

Also can you cite the specific times he was available for France but wasn’t available for us pre and post internationals?

 

[peller]

He evidently was consistent end up in team of the year - so the idea he was never consistent it’s verifiably false. If you’re adding “year in/year out” qualifiers then that’s not the same argument as “never”

Being consistent in 1 of 6 years here is hardly claim for being consistent unless one loves playing semantic.

The media and fans making up big talking points about what Pogba needed shouldn't really be held against him if we never actually did the obvious and simply build a balanced midfield. People talked like Pogba needed some super specific midfield and system that was built purely around him, when in reality the system that he was at his best at (both at Juve and the brief time we played it at Utd) was probably the most common and successful midfield that the top teams had been using for the previous decade. We just never did that.

It's not really any different that if we'd been playing Bruno in a midfield two for the majority of his time here. Would it be fair in that case to blame Bruno entirely for not reaching the levels he could have and being much more inconsistent than he would be as a #10? Or should we put some blame on him for the faults he does have, but also recognise that the club basically set him up to fail by limiting his strengths and highlighting his weaknesses?

Herrera - Matic or Herrera - Fred was way better midfield partnership than whatever Bruno has gotten so far. They had agility, technic, vision, gut, workrate to suplement Pogba's individual brilliance.

Anyway the adulation toward Paul Pogba, a player with zero loyalty to Man Utd whose since 2018 couldnt stop eyeing for a way out and refused extension because the club "only" offered him an extra £50.000 is biggest W T F moment for me as man united supporter.

 

[antk]

And I don’t believe for a second his injuries were all legit. No problem with Juve and then it becomes a problem at United where he was unhappy for the majority of his contract. Also seemed to be fit for France when they needed him.

At some point you are straight-up making up things.

 

[ItDoesntEvenMata]

It’s been clarified in detail, you just don’t like the answer. If you are implying skin color is playing a role you can F**k off with that culture war nonsense.

Grealish isn’t a United player and never was , so I’m not sure why you think he’s a comparable player on any level. City players by default don’t have the same scrutiny as United ones.

Skin colour, economic class and background of players absolutely affects media, pundit and fan coverage

 

[Chairman Steve]

A talented player who could be good but I don’t think his heart was fully into it when he joined us the second time. To me, he gave off the vibe that he was doing us a favour by joining us, which is a huge red flag with any player joining a team.

It felt like he was more into his public image than his performances and it may have rubbed off on the likes of Lingard and Rashford in the process.

And I was sick of his brothers and entourage every international break undermining the club by speculating about moves away.

 

[BorisManUtd]

Tell you what given how some other 80-100m players have performed either for us or other teams, he wasn't as bad as we thought at the time. Wasn't biggest fan because of his behaviour at times but it's all distant past now given he left almost 3 and a half years ago.

 

[MadDogg]

Herrera - Matic or Herrera - Fred was way better midfield partnership than whatever Bruno has gotten so far. They had agility, technic, vision, gut, workrate to suplement Pogba's individual brilliance.

Anyway the adulation toward Paul Pogba, a player with zero loyalty to Man Utd whose since 2018 couldnt stop eyeing for a way out and refused extension because the club "only" offered him an extra £50.000 is biggest W T F moment for me as man united supporter.

Matic-Herrera-Pogba is exactly the type of balance I'm talking about. Three players whose strengths and weaknesses covered each other in a way that they could all perform their role to the best of their abilities and covered everything that the team as a whole needed. The one period we actually used that combo (right after Ole took over) was basically the only time in Pogba's six years that we played a midfield that had the proper balance, and it just so happens to be the only time since Fergie retired that we showed true league-winning form and Pogba on the individual level was the best player in the league. Then Herrera got injured and left at the end of that season, and we never tried to play a properly balanced midfield again.

We never once started Herrera and Fred together, and they wouldn't have been a balanced midfield anyway. They were competing for one spot in the season they were both here, with Fred being terrible for most of that first season as he struggled to get to grips with the English game.

There's not much adulation towards Pogba. It's more that there's a lot of over-the-top dislike and hatred towards him, where the huge level of criticism he got was very unfair when you compared it to how pretty much every other player in the team was worse (many of them significantly) and got virtually no criticism in comparison. It always rubbed me the wrong way. There's plenty to criticise Pogba for but it went ridiculously overboard. Trying to only give him the criticism that he deserves is hardly adulation.

 

[peller]

Matic-Herrera-Pogba is exactly the type of balance I'm talking about. Three players whose strengths and weaknesses covered each other in a way that they could all perform their role to the best of their abilities and covered everything that the team as a whole needed. The one period we actually used that combo (right after Ole took over) was basically the only time in Pogba's six years that we played a midfield that had the proper balance, and it just so happens to be the only time since Fergie retired that we showed true league-winning form and Pogba on the individual level was the best player in the league. Then Herrera got injured and left at the end of that season, and we never tried to play a properly balanced midfield again.

We never once started Herrera and Fred together, and they wouldn't have been a balanced midfield anyway. They were competing for one spot in the season they were both here, with Fred being terrible for most of that first season as he struggled to get to grips with the English game.

There's not much adulation towards Pogba. It's more that there's a lot of over-the-top dislike and hatred towards him, where the huge level of criticism he got was very unfair when you compared it to how pretty much every other player in the team was worse (many of them significantly) and got virtually no criticism in comparison. It always rubbed me the wrong way. There's plenty to criticise Pogba for but it went ridiculously overboard. Trying to only give him the criticism that he deserves is hardly adulation.

Judging from the way Pogba and his reps behaved while he was here, the dislike and hatred are justified. Who like a united player who kept disrespecting the club? You?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Skin colour, economic class and background of players absolutely affects media, pundit and fan coverage

As does how they conduct themselves while at a club. Harry Maguire hasn’t exactly had an easy time at the club . Garnacho didn’t get a standing ovation send off, I’d imagine if they were a different color you’d make the same stupid claim.

Not everything is about race, quite an ill educated guess on your part.

 

[Moriarty]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but at the time we bought Pogba back from Juve, Raiola had told the player that he would be in Machester for 3 years, then it was off to Madrid. Apparently, they had it all planned out. I wonder what Fergie thought when he came back?

 

[siw2007]

Ridiculously talented player who was unbelievably good on his day. We just didn’t see it consistently and he was a liability when he wasn’t on his A game.

I felt he needed two things to succeed here, which he didn’t get but he did at Juve:

1) Juve had a very strong team with Buffon, Chiellini, Bonucci, Pirlo, Vidal etc. Between them they pretty much ran the game for them. Pogba was the creative player on top of that who flourished with the platform to perform. We didn’t have that and we expected Pogba to be a player that he wasn’t. In short, Pogba was more of a Zidane but we wanted a Viera.

2) He missed having the strong leaders in the club. The leaders of Juve probably kept him focussed and on the right path. For us, we indulged him and let him lose his way.

 

[ItDoesntEvenMata]

As does how they conduct themselves while at a club. Harry Maguire hasn’t exactly had an easy time at the club . Garnacho didn’t get a standing ovation send off, I’d imagine if they were a different color you’d make the same stupid claim.

Not everything is about race, quite an ill educated guess on your part.

Did I say ‘everything is about race’? Sounds like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder to take an opposing point to the extreme degree and then argue with your own definition of my point.

Some players are just moronic - regardless of race, background etc - Garna fits that certainly, as does someone like Joey Barton. Pogba wasn’t moronic. He was branded as lazy, people had more issues (as with Lingard, Rashford) etc with the culture he was engaged with outside of the club. No mention of the positives like not drinking etc, whereas players like Grealish are often seen as media darlings and their lack of professionalism though mentioned is seen as a facet of their character, enigmatic somewhat. Jesse for me is a prime example of a total moron - the stupid voices, the shite antics when being under par. Pogba had a languid playing style and plenty of people held him to an unfair standard

I said that race absolutely affects commentary and narrative. From the old ‘big and strong’ descriptions often lazily thrown at black footballers through to the public feeling free to pile on to our young black players when they miss penalties at major tournaments etc.

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

As does how they conduct themselves while at a club. Harry Maguire hasn’t exactly had an easy time at the club . Garnacho didn’t get a standing ovation send off, I’d imagine if they were a different color you’d make the same stupid claim.

Not everything is about race, quite an ill educated guess on your part.

It’s views like these that make discussions about race so difficult. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, of course but to believe that a white Manchester United player would have faced the same level of abuse as Pogba did at Old Trafford at the end of the season, when the entire team underperformed, is to ignore the deeper issue, which you seem to be doing. But happy to be corrected.

Harry Maguire was booed while playing for England, then received a standing ovation at Old Trafford. Let’s be honest that would never have happened for Paul Pogba, and we all know it. To me that played into the overall opinion of a player who although didn’t reach the heights we wanted or expected still had a very good career here and he should be far more appreciated than he is.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

It’s views like these that make discussions about race so difficult. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, of course but to believe that a white Manchester United player would have faced the same level of abuse as Pogba did at Old Trafford at the end of the season, when the entire team underperformed, is to ignore the deeper issue, which you seem to be doing. But happy to be corrected.

Harry Maguire was booed while playing for England, then received a standing ovation at Old Trafford. Let’s be honest that would never have happened for Paul Pogba, and we all know it. To me that played into the overall opinion of a player who although didn’t reach the heights we wanted or expected still had a very good career here and he should be far more appreciated than he is.

Harry Maguire was booed by his own fans many many times including on pre season friendlies, I don’t recall an awful lot of United players being booed in pre season friendlies. You think he turned it around because hes white ? Not that he stopped those stupid PR tweets about his performances against Norwich , took losing the captaincy in the chin without whining and worked hard to get back into the team ?

Unless you are accusing people in here, who weren’t his biggest fans, of being racist I’m not sure why this is being discussed so much?

Reductive logic that makes broad assumptions on people’s motives and presumes the worst of them by default is just as damaging to any sort of efforts to combat racism.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Did I say ‘everything is about race’? Sounds like you’ve got a chip on your shoulder to take an opposing point to the extreme degree and then argue with your own definition of my point.

Some players are just moronic - regardless of race, background etc - Garna fits that certainly, as does someone like Joey Barton. Pogba wasn’t moronic. He was branded as lazy, people had more issues (as with Lingard, Rashford) etc with the culture he was engaged with outside of the club. No mention of the positives like not drinking etc, whereas players like Grealish are often seen as media darlings and their lack of professionalism though mentioned is seen as a facet of their character, enigmatic somewhat. Jesse for me is a prime example of a total moron - the stupid voices, the shite antics when being under par. Pogba had a languid playing style and plenty of people held him to an unfair standard

I said that race absolutely affects commentary and narrative. From the old ‘big and strong’ descriptions often lazily thrown at black footballers through to the public feeling free to pile on to our young black players when they miss penalties at major tournaments etc.

What has “people piling on black players” got to do with discussing this player ? Why are you bringing up Grealish ?

If you want to discus racism in England or the media start a thread for it. Im not here to discuss other people’s agendas.

 

[ItDoesntEvenMata]

What has “people piling on black players” got to do with discussing this player ? Why are you bringing up Grealish ?

If you want to discus racism in England or the media start a thread for it. Im not here to discuss other people’s agendas.

You were the one bringing up skin colour and culture wars.

This thread is about revisiting Pogba and the retrospective perception and narrative around him. It’s part of that

 

[clarkydaz]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but at the time we bought Pogba back from Juve, Raiola had told the player that he would be in Machester for 3 years, then it was off to Madrid. Apparently, they had it all planned out. I wonder what Fergie thought when he came back?

i recall that being put out. His agent was a contant pain in the arse. Offering him to City before that derby, trashing Ole before a CL game etc. Was satisfying watching his Pogumentary where it shows Raiola telling him Madrid aint interested anymore as he was washed up

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

You were the one bringing up skin colour and culture wars.

This thread is about revisiting Pogba and the retrospective perception and narrative around him. It’s part of that

I didn’t bring it up, I responded to somebody else implying that the general negative sentiment towards him was race related.

There were plenty of baggage and annoying things about Pogbas return and time at United and his entourage that had nothing to do with that.

- him leaving on a free originally under Ferguson
- coming back for world record fee and contract
- Woodwards wet dream signing where he comments on how many website hits after he joined (he always seeeme like a Woodward signing as much for marketing reasons as anything else which is why he wasn’t allowed leave).
- looking good until zlatan left the dressingroom
- courting online attention to the point where his hair thing was getting negative attention that he discussed was affecting his performances
- basically checking out after he fell out with Jose
- putting in a ridiculous shift for two months under ole which was as good as it got and then reverting to type (he played CM for most of that season)
- agent coming out constantly moaning and causing drama (agent works for player)
- him leaving on another free

He then leaves United and gets banned from football. Where id have sympathy for him is that he seems to of been poorly advised , put his trust in the wrong people and he did things that didn’t help him publicly.

If contract and transfer fee didn’t matter nobody would care that Anthony didn’t work out. Hell , Maguire prob wouldn’t have gotten as much stick either. So cost to the club matters to fans and trying to re-calibrate the perception of the clubs most of expensive miss hit (6 years and he barely played for 3) while the club is bean counting , is not going to be met positively.

 

[MUFCpiffgawd]

Biggest mistake he made in his career was signing for United when he did. We havent been a club that can nurture talent for 10+ years.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Biggest mistake he made in his career was signing for United when he did. We havent been a club that can nurture talent for 10+ years.

Not many players or managers who joined or were at the club would feel any different.

 

[Steve 007]

I think it’s fair to say that until his body broke down in his last two seasons then Pogba was a key player for us…So in terms of impact, this I don’t get? What is the impact? 100 goals? But 40% are penalties. League performance? Worse. Team performance? Worse. Individual performances? I’d argue Bruno has had more lower level performances. More extended periods of poor performance and the team has had worse performances and results.

Trophy wise it’s equal. League wise we were much better pre Bruno.

Pogba…

16/17 PL 6th League cup winners, Europa League winners

17/18 PL 2nd FA Cup runners up

18/19 PL 6th

19/20 PL 3rd

20/21 PL 2nd Europa league runners up

——————

Bruno

20/21 PL 2nd Europa league runners up

21/22 PL 6th

22/23 PL 3rd EFL cup winners FA Cup runners up

23/24 PL 8th FA Cup winners

24/25 PL 15th Europa league runners up

Bruno has 100 goals and 76 assists. He holds the record for most goal contributions by a midfielder at Utd. He’s created more chances since he’s been here than any player in the league. If he was playing with better players he’d be a legend. You cannot say the same for Pogba. The stats don’t lie.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Bruno has 100 goals and 76 assists. He holds the record for most goal contributions by a midfielder at Utd. He’s created more chances since he’s been here than any player in the league. If he was playing with better players he’d be a legend. You cannot say the same for Pogba. The stats don’t lie.

I'd be quite curious to their non-penalty goal + assist per 90.

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

I'd be quite curious to their non-penalty goal + assist per 90.

I don’t think it would make much of a difference. Pogba was our penalty taker before Bruno.

Bruno’s stats are really good. But Pogba’s out too.

 

[CMRobbo7]

I'd be quite curious to their non-penalty goal + assist per 90.

Pogba g/a every 218 mins
Bruno g/a every 173 mins

 

[CMRobbo7]

Bruno has 100 goals and 76 assists. He holds the record for most goal contributions by a midfielder at Utd. He’s created more chances since he’s been here than any player in the league. If he was playing with better players he’d be a legend. You cannot say the same for Pogba. The stats don’t lie.

That’s his stats.

You said impact. What impact has he had? Because when I look at the four seasons up until we signed him when Pogba was here we were better as a team over that period in every metric.

Averaged out over the four seasons pre Bruno…

W20 D10.5 L7.5 GS63 GA36. Pts70.5 Pos4th

Averaged out over the five seasons with Bruno…

W18 D8.4 L11.8 GS57 GA51.2 62pts POS7th

So we win less, draw less, lose more, score less, concede more, less points, lower league positions.

I’d say that despite his individual accolades, he’s had a net positive impact…yet also had quite a negative impact on the teams performance also. If you look at passing stats for example of Pogba and Bruno. Pogba’s key passes drop by around 50% after we signed Bruno. Also Bruno’s pass completion is low and his long ball percentage is low, yet he plays so many despite the fact.

I’d argue these are potential reasons for some of the negative drop in team performance since his arrival. Namely he plays so many key passes, that others become impacted negatively as a result. Secondly that the amount of high percentage turnovers have a negative impact on defensive shape, the flow of the game, opposition momentum and ultimately goals against and points gained.

I’d be interested in a counter in terms of positive impact. Tangible impact. And no I’m not suggesting the whole issue is down to Bruno’s impact but the thing is, despite his own stats…has he actually positively impacted the team performance overall?

 

[AjaxCunian]

I don’t think it would make much of a difference. Pogba was our penalty taker before Bruno.

Bruno’s stats are really good. But Pogba’s out too.

Cheers! My feeling says that Bruno has taken and scored a lot more penalties than Pogba did, especially in his first 1.5 years.

 

[CMRobbo7]

Cheers! My feeling says that Bruno has taken and scored a lot more penalties than Pogba did, especially in his first 1.5 years.

40% of Bruno’s 100 goals are penalties

 

[Uncle Mainoo]

40% of Bruno’s 100 goals are penalties

23% for Pogba. 38% for Bruno as I don’t think you can round up 38 penalty goals out of 100 to 40%

 

[Apokalips]

I wish we had them together for longer and Pogba didn't have injury problems. It would have been great if we had brought in Kante or Rodri to complement the 2 of them and that could have been a complete midfield trio.

Pogba was expected to be too much, those that played with him all talk highly of him as a person and as a player. I think a lot of people are not used to the culture of dancing and celebration and don't understand it is a part of his culture (as is the case for many of us). Social media puts it in people's faces a lot more and if that is not the sort of joyful expression you are used to then it may jar, especially when you add he irrational football fan mentality that when things are not going well on the pitch then players are not allowed to have lives, then we get vitriol. Many South American players and teams tend to dance a lot and it is seen as novel, but when Pogba was doing it we had nonsense about how he wasn't concentrating on football.

I wish he stayed initially, his standing with fans would have been better. I saw pointless players like Donny get more love than Pogba, which was ridiculous.

 

[miked99]

My biggest frustration as a United fan. Had so much talent, but never fulfilled it.

He's had a good career. But he could've been one of the greats, yet got nowhere near.

 

[Maurice Setters Training]

In my opinion, he only really suited a midfield 3 that didn't have a separate 10. So it was always going to be a problem fitting him and Bruno into one midfield.

He looked good for a while with Carrick and Herrera, but Carrick was old at that point.

He also seemed to get a long muscle injury in many seasons. It wasn't his fault, but it made it challenging to build a team around him, and we eventually got Bruno.

 

[Rolaholic]

Ironically enough, he's probably still the best midfielder out of all the midfielders who went for 100m+ afterwards.

None of them ever had the expectations of putting an entire club on their backs either

 

[CMRobbo7]

23% for Pogba. 38% for Bruno as I don’t think you can round up 38 penalty goals out of 100 to 40%

Ok…but he’s scored 100 goals and 39 are penalties (but it’s not that big a difference)

 

[Hammondo]

Ironically enough, he's probably still the best midfielder out of all the midfielders who went for 100m+ afterwards.

None of them ever had the expectations of putting an entire club on their backs either

Id take Caicedo.

 

[redmanx]

Pogba was a luxury type of player who could only excel in a team that was able to dominate its opponents, but even then his self indulgencies, on and off the pitch, would eventually make him a liability not worth the trouble. Pogbas return to United was a case of "over paid, over indulged and over here!"

 

[TsuWave]

Ironically enough, he's probably still the best midfielder out of all the midfielders who went for 100m+ afterwards.

None of them ever had the expectations of putting an entire club on their backs either

It's not even close really. But he’s getting his flowers as of late on socials

 

[justsomebloke]

Matic-Herrera-Pogba is exactly the type of balance I'm talking about. Three players whose strengths and weaknesses covered each other in a way that they could all perform their role to the best of their abilities and covered everything that the team as a whole needed. The one period we actually used that combo (right after Ole took over) was basically the only time in Pogba's six years that we played a midfield that had the proper balance, and it just so happens to be the only time since Fergie retired that we showed true league-winning form and Pogba on the individual level was the best player in the league. Then Herrera got injured and left at the end of that season, and we never tried to play a properly balanced midfield again.

We never once started Herrera and Fred together, and they wouldn't have been a balanced midfield anyway. They were competing for one spot in the season they were both here, with Fred being terrible for most of that first season as he struggled to get to grips with the English game.

There's not much adulation towards Pogba. It's more that there's a lot of over-the-top dislike and hatred towards him, where the huge level of criticism he got was very unfair when you compared it to how pretty much every other player in the team was worse (many of them significantly) and got virtually no criticism in comparison. It always rubbed me the wrong way. There's plenty to criticise Pogba for but it went ridiculously overboard. Trying to only give him the criticism that he deserves is hardly adulation.

You're forgetting the following season from February onwards. After Bruno arrived, we went undefeated for the rest of the season. A considerably longer streak than Ole's post-takeover initial rampage.