Paul Pogba revisited

He was a good player when fit, great when in form. Much better on the ball than Bruno, and physically stronger too. Would suit Brunos position now more than Bruno, but Bruno has amazing durability ( Never injured ), so it evens out. Became a scapegoat sometimes because he was our star player, and we were still expected to win trophies/return to challenge for PL titles. We never really signed a solid defensive/ball winning partner for him, the best we got was Herrera ( Who was ok-good at best ) & Matic ( Who was good for 1/2 - 1 season and ok for the rest ).
 
I do remember his debut season being promising, to the level of "if this is his debut season, I can't wait to see what comes the next" but it did seem like for various reasons inconsistency grew more than the opposite. Games where he seemed to lose concentration became more common in both his defending and long passes. When he mishit he always looked like he was overthinking something that should come natural/intuitively to him and then he mishit the ball several times. Many start midfielders have been defensive liabilities, but it's easier to build around it and take it for granted when your star factor is actually active. That's (I think) why people talked about unlocking him more and more but it almost looked like there was more proof that he would not work out here, as he turned more into a scapegoat that wanted out sooner than he eventually did. In hindsight it kinda seemed like a mistimed match rather than a complete failure. Perhaps he came a little too late to work with Van Gaal, or ETH/Amorim-types came a little too late. Plus while he left 2022, he already barely played that last season, and don't think it was that much during 20-21 either, with the few spells he was back he looked like the unfocused/overthinking player more often than what we see in that video. You could see it was still there, but also with more and more of a risk that the excitement factor was far beneath at least a layer of rust. There was still enough to have me and some others still believe that something is in there, but I don't think there were many where the possible delusion had simmered down into a small flickering hope.

But even now, I am really curious about him at Monaco. He probably has to reinvent himself, while officially he hasn't played for over 2 years, and that was a cameo for a Juve that tried to get him fit for over a year after getting him from a United he only had a few cameos for the season before. There's been crazy resurgances before, but 4-5 years of almost no play is a lot of clunkiness to slip into a player already struggling to let loose completely before that time. Still, though, he did feel like a unique talent. I was really excited about Koke's prospect at Atleti when he was 17 or something, and thought he could be a great if developed well. He mostly turned very good, but mostly his younger era. But even then, seeing Pogba at Juventus did look like no matter how delusional I was about my own club's huge midfield prospect, Pogba was more talented. I guess just because of that, some part of me still thinks it's possible his swan song could at least be interesting and see him shine brightly for a few more times. But I'm also around long enough now to see plenty of generational talents gone forgotten. I guess what's nice about today is that in video games, one good game of someone like Ganso could have you feed your delusions with a special version of some of those forgotten starlets in your video games and pretend they could be dominant like that in some form of "reality" - though it does kind of suck that those games aren't reliably and consistently good or fun. But every once in a while it's nice to dive into some fantasy world and it feel concrete in some way.

So yeah, I'll assume we've seen the best of him, and I'm also not too surprised his debut for Monaco was delayed once again. Maybe they'll reveal to stop trying and go separate ways in a few weeks. We'll see.
 
Probably the transfer I was most excited about but never to work. I feel that the club and the media failed at how to manage him to get the best out of him. I know he was flashy in his personal life and in his footballing life but that is what I liked him about the most that he brought his personality to his game.

 
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He was super talented but just wasn’t a smart player on the pitch. When he was younger some of the brain farts he made on both sides of the ball were excused due to age but getting older didn’t stop any of the silly parts of his game.

I feel if he dedicated himself to really understanding how to play in midfield from a tactical perspective he could’ve been an all timer. I remember there was a video where he was comparing himself to Kante and saying something along the lines of them having similar stats or playing the same position and Kante gets praise but he gets hate. That in itself told you he just didn’t get it.

He always let himself down by dribbling in the wrong areas or being a step behind the play defensively and also doing fancy things just for the sake of it.

It just shows how talented he was because he still achieved such a high level in his career and did things for us that no player has done since. His game against Switzerland in the Euros is almost a perfect example of Pogba, he played an unreal game with the most beautiful passing and a worldie which he celebrated for a good 2mins but was the one to give up possession for the equaliser in stoppage time and eventually lost on penalties. His brilliance for how special it was just didn’t translate into wins enough.
 
El Jefe said:
He was super talented but just wasn’t a smart player on the pitch. When he was younger some of the brain farts he made on both sides of the ball were excused due to age but getting older didn’t stop any of the silly parts of his game.

I feel if he dedicated himself to really understanding how to play in midfield from a tactical perspective he could’ve been an all timer. I remember there was a video where he was comparing himself to Kante and saying something along the lines of them having similar stats or playing the same position and Kante gets praise but he gets hate. That in itself told you he just didn’t get it.

He always let himself down by dribbling in the wrong areas or being a step behind the play defensively and also doing fancy things just for the sake of it.

It just shows how talented he was because he still achieved such a high level in his career and did things for us that no player has done since. His game against Switzerland in the Euros is almost a perfect example of Pogba, he played an unreal game with the most beautiful passing and a worldie which he celebrated for a good 2mins but was the one to give up possession for the equaliser in stoppage time and eventually lost on penalties. His brilliance for how special it was just didn’t translate into wins enough.
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I’m assuming his point was he’s hitting the same stats as Kante but is getting hate which suggests he feels untreated fairly. I know Coman came out and said the same thing where he hinted Pogba had been treated unfairly.

Truth be told, he’s wasted his career at United who hadn’t built a decent squad challenging in his early years. In his latter years, he had become injury prone and dropped his performance levels with flashes of brilliances.

The France game against the Swiss should have been buried earlier. If I recall Mbappe had a shocker that game, similar to Rashford going through goal and messing it up.
 
Brazilian_Ronaldo_9 said:
I’m assuming his point was he’s hitting the same stats as Kante but is getting hate which suggests he feels untreated fairly. I know Coman came out and said the same thing where he hinted Pogba had been treated unfairly.

Truth be told, he’s wasted his career at United who hadn’t built a decent squad challenging in his early years. In his latter years, he had become injury prone and dropped his performance levels with flashes of brilliances.

The France game against the Swiss should have been buried earlier. If I recall Mbappe had a shocker that game, similar to Rashford going through goal and messing it up.
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United wasted a decade trying to build a team around him.
 
Shame we never really made it work with him. He could've been phenomenal. Some is on him and some on the club being shambles under Woodward.
 
I think managers always wanted him to be something he wasn't. Due to his physique and technical ability numerous managers thought he had the makings of a great orthodox midfielder (i.e. defensive mid, DLP, #6, B2B or whatever terminology you prefer). That just wasn't him though. He should always have been the most attacking of 3 CMs, or in certain unorthodox setups with others around him being more disciplined. He was at his best for United in a trio of him, Matic and Herrera. He was at his best for France in a two with Kante with a workhouse in Matuidi tucking inside, and for Juve in a 532 with Pirlo and Vidal.
 
I thought he had a wonderful natural talent, but for whatever reason he never fully capitalised on that. He could be brilliant and infuriating in the same game.
 
Trequarista10 said:
I think managers always wanted him to be something he wasn't. Due to his physique and technical ability numerous managers thought he had the makings of a great orthodox midfielder (i.e. defensive mid, DLP, #6, B2B or whatever terminology you prefer). That just wasn't him though. He should always have been the most attacking of 3 CMs, or in certain unorthodox setups with others around him being more disciplined. He was at his best for United in a trio of him, Matic and Herrera. He was at his best for France in a two with Kante with a workhouse in Matuidi tucking inside, and for Juve in a 532 with Pirlo and Vidal.
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He also had fantastic passing from deep. Playing him as an attacking midfielder would limit or even take away that quality.
 
Stadjer said:
He also had fantastic passing from deep. Playing him as an attacking midfielder would limit or even take away that quality.
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When I said technical ability, I was referring largely to his passing from deep. I specifically said most attacking of a midfield 3, rather than attacking midfielder, because as you say he was not a #10. He needed to be on the ball in deep areas and high up the pitch. But he wasn't capable of being defensively disciplined enough to be a regular/deep lying midfielder off the ball.
 
I was very against getting him back, felt we had part ways. And i didnt like the attitude sometimes on the pitch. Him and Sancho is the two players i least wanted here before we got them.

That beeing said, i think Pogba is extremly talented. Like really really talented..

I think he could have been one of the best midfielders if things turned out a bit different. IMO of course.
 
El Jefe said:
He was super talented but just wasn’t a smart player on the pitch. When he was younger some of the brain farts he made on both sides of the ball were excused due to age but getting older didn’t stop any of the silly parts of his game.

I feel if he dedicated himself to really understanding how to play in midfield from a tactical perspective he could’ve been an all timer. I remember there was a video where he was comparing himself to Kante and saying something along the lines of them having similar stats or playing the same position and Kante gets praise but he gets hate. That in itself told you he just didn’t get it.

He always let himself down by dribbling in the wrong areas or being a step behind the play defensively and also doing fancy things just for the sake of it.

It just shows how talented he was because he still achieved such a high level in his career and did things for us that no player has done since. His game against Switzerland in the Euros is almost a perfect example of Pogba, he played an unreal game with the most beautiful passing and a worldie which he celebrated for a good 2mins but was the one to give up possession for the equaliser in stoppage time and eventually lost on penalties. His brilliance for how special it was just didn’t translate into wins enough.
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I don’t think he was any more guilty of any of that, than most other attacking midfielders.

The fact that the Swiss goal still gets brought up is reflective of the insane scrutiny that led to the idea he was somehow much more liable than others.

I mean take that incident in isolation. He was passed the ball in midfield when he had five Swiss players around him and nobody to pass to. It was a brainless ball to play to him.

On a wider scale…he got tackled. Literally other than in your own box or near the edge of your own box, I can’t remember any player being criticised for getting tackled.

He wasn’t a defensive minded player, his weaknesses get exposed there but if you look at Bruno this season alone, playing deeper in midfield…

Fulham’s goal resulted from him letting his man run off him on the edge of the box

City’s first goal resulted in him letting Foden run off him in the box

Spurs equaliser he’s running towards Tel as he receives the ball and bizarrely stops.

Arsenals goal he plays a mindless pass in his own box (brain fart) when he should have cleared it.

He’s also missed two crucial penalties and not played well at all bar two games…He’s under absolutely no scrutiny in the media.

Pogba never had the luxury of being able to not be perfect. Never mind poor.
 
Trequarista10 said:
I think managers always wanted him to be something he wasn't. Due to his physique and technical ability numerous managers thought he had the makings of a great orthodox midfielder (i.e. defensive mid, DLP, #6, B2B or whatever terminology you prefer). That just wasn't him though. He should always have been the most attacking of 3 CMs, or in certain unorthodox setups with others around him being more disciplined. He was at his best for United in a trio of him, Matic and Herrera. He was at his best for France in a two with Kante with a workhouse in Matuidi tucking inside, and for Juve in a 532 with Pirlo and Vidal.
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He played plenty as the most attacking of 3 cms, and when that didn't work we had his fans on here saying he's being played out of position.
 
Stadjer said:
He also had fantastic passing from deep. Playing him as an attacking midfielder would limit or even take away that quality.
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He could have been an amazing deep lying playmaker imo, but ego and laziness got in the way.
 
Stadjer said:
He also had fantastic passing from deep. Playing him as an attacking midfielder would limit or even take away that quality.
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He also had a frustrating habit of hanging onto the ball for too long, a bit like Cunha seems to. I wonder if that would impact his ability to play deeper, as knowing when to release the ball is a skill of it's own.
 
El Jefe said:
He was super talented but just wasn’t a smart player on the pitch. When he was younger some of the brain farts he made on both sides of the ball were excused due to age but getting older didn’t stop any of the silly parts of his game.

I feel if he dedicated himself to really understanding how to play in midfield from a tactical perspective he could’ve been an all timer. I remember there was a video where he was comparing himself to Kante and saying something along the lines of them having similar stats or playing the same position and Kante gets praise but he gets hate. That in itself told you he just didn’t get it.

He always let himself down by dribbling in the wrong areas or being a step behind the play defensively and also doing fancy things just for the sake of it.

It just shows how talented he was because he still achieved such a high level in his career and did things for us that no player has done since. His game against Switzerland in the Euros is almost a perfect example of Pogba, he played an unreal game with the most beautiful passing and a worldie which he celebrated for a good 2mins but was the one to give up possession for the equaliser in stoppage time and eventually lost on penalties. His brilliance for how special it was just didn’t translate into wins enough.
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Yeah this is a pretty good summary. I think the interview you remember was with Thierry Henry, shortly after he signed for us? He was basically saying he could be the ultimate all round midfielder. They maybe mentioned Patric Vieira as someone he could emulate? (I might be imagining this!)

Which we should have realised was a red flag as soon as we watched him play. He was really poor defensively, like way below average for his position. Bad tackle technique, poor positional sense and decision making. Always needed someone else to do all of his defensive midfield work for him. The complete lack of self awareness and football intelligence to genuinely believe he was a much more complete player than he actually was kind of sums him up.
 
peller said:
United wasted a decade trying to build a team around him.
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Except we didn't and it's always been a ridiculous idea that we did. Building a team around him would imply that we played a style and bought players that would complement him and enable him to play his natural game. Which is basically the exact opposite of what we did, where he spent his entire time here being expected to play a role he was never suited to. The only time we actually spent a couple of months playing the system he clearly suited just so happened to be the best form of his career and the best performances the team have had since Fergie retired. Then we just ignored that and went back to playing him deeper again.

The related idea that people also talk about that he needed some very specific system also ignores that it was probably the most common system that the top teams in Europe were playing at the time.
 
2 man midfield said:
He also had a frustrating habit of hanging onto the ball for too long, a bit like Cunha seems to. I wonder if that would impact his ability to play deeper, as knowing when to release the ball is a skill of it's own.
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It also made him a liability for the team. A midfielder who wants to take too many touches around the edge of his own box is meat and drink for teams that press high.

Throw in the fact he was never quite nimble enough to play in congested areas around the opposition box and you can see why he so often flattered to deceive.
 
MadDogg said:
Except we didn't and it's always been a ridiculous idea that we did. Building a team around him would imply that we played a style and bought players that would complement him and enable him to play his natural game. Which is basically the exact opposite of what we did, where he spent his entire time here being expected to play a role he was never suited to. The only time we actually spent a couple of months playing the system he clearly suited just so happened to be the best form of his career and the best performances the team have had since Fergie retired. Then we just ignored that and went back to playing him deeper again.

The related idea that people also talk about that he needed some very specific system also ignores that it was probably the most common system that the top teams in Europe were playing at the time.
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We definitely spent more than a couple of months playing systems that he should have been capable of looking good in.
 
MadDogg said:
Except we didn't and it's always been a ridiculous idea that we did. Building a team around him would imply that we played a style and bought players that would complement him and enable him to play his natural game. Which is basically the exact opposite of what we did, where he spent his entire time here being expected to play a role he was never suited to. The only time we actually spent a couple of months playing the system he clearly suited just so happened to be the best form of his career and the best performances the team have had since Fergie retired. Then we just ignored that and went back to playing him deeper again.

The related idea that people also talk about that he needed some very specific system also ignores that it was probably the most common system that the top teams in Europe were playing at the time.
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We kept changing our lineup to try and find this mythical best position, and to get the right players around him, but strangely every time we did, his best position/role suddenly changed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We definitely spent more than a couple of months playing systems that he should have been capable of looking good in.
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I probably should have specified with players that suited each role in that system. We did play a midfield three at other times with him nominally having the most freedom, but the three as a whole were terribly balanced so Pogba still ended up having to drop deep and have to do way too much himself instead of just focusing on his role.

The only time we actually played a properly balanced midfield was the brief period with Matic-Herrera-Pogba, which is easily the best we've played since Fergie. Actually there was a short Carrick-Herrera-Pogba period in his first season as well, where once again we looked quite good at the start but Carrick was on his last legs and Mourinho ran him into the ground so it didn't last long.
 
MadDogg said:
I probably should have specified with players that suited each role in that system. We did play a midfield three at other times with him nominally having the most freedom, but the three as a whole were terribly balanced so Pogba still ended up having to drop deep and have to do way too much himself instead of just focusing on his role.

The only time we actually played a properly balanced midfield was the brief period with Matic-Herrera-Pogba, which is easily the best we've played since Fergie. Actually there was a short Carrick-Herrera-Pogba period in his first season as well, where once again we looked quite good at the start but Carrick was on his last legs and Mourinho ran him into the ground so it didn't last long.
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An alternative take on this is that Pogba was never able to maintain a consistent level of form for more than a couple of months at a time. Honestly, in my 40 odd years following United I can’t think of any other footballer at the club who so consistently had fans blaming other players for his own poor performances. Not to mention that really top class central midfielders (at United and our rivals) consistently look class with all sorts of different midfield partners. Michael Carrick being a good example. A good midfielder makes everyone around him look better. Pogba often seemed to have the exact opposite effect.
 
MadDogg said:
I probably should have specified with players that suited each role in that system. We did play a midfield three at other times with him nominally having the most freedom, but the three as a whole were terribly balanced so Pogba still ended up having to drop deep and have to do way too much himself instead of just focusing on his role.

The only time we actually played a properly balanced midfield was the brief period with Matic-Herrera-Pogba, which is easily the best we've played since Fergie. Actually there was a short Carrick-Herrera-Pogba period in his first season as well, where once again we looked quite good at the start but Carrick was on his last legs and Mourinho ran him into the ground so it didn't last long.
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And when matic got too old, pogba fans were saying he needs a more attacking midfielder with him compared to matic.
 
Hammondo said:
We kept changing our lineup to try and find this mythical best position, and to get the right players around him, but strangely every time we did, his best position/role suddenly changed.
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Some people may have changed where they thought he should be playing. But it was always fairly obvious that we should be playing in a similar system as he did for Juve, and the very brief time we played a similarly balanced midfield here he was brilliant. Like I said above, it wasn't just about the formation on paper, but the players in each role. Just saying we were playing a midfield three and he wasn't working is simplifying it way too much; it's like saying that Fergie's 442 was the same as the 442 that Derby were playing in the mid-90's.

I should also say that it's not just Pogba. We have spent more than a decade playing terribly balanced midfields in general, with players being asked to fill roles that don't suit them instead of actually building a midfield combination that complement each other. Unsurprisingly that then makes it much more difficult for each of those midfielders to actually perform. Hell, one of the midfield combos that most people are likely thinking about (Fred, McTominay and Pogba) somehow had all three of them being asked to fill roles that didn't suit them. Hence the idea that we 'built' our team around any of our midfielders is ridiculous to me.

I did specify the system at Juve and what we used for that brief period in 18/19 (a deeper-lying playmaker, a box-to-box harrier, and a more attack-focused floater with more freedom), but it didn't even need to be exactly that. Just a combination of players that complemented each other, covering each others weaknesses and helping each other out. The absolute basics of team-building, and basically what every successful team has been focusing on to a huge extent over the last 15 years in particular.
 
MadDogg said:
Some people may have changed where they thought he should be playing. But it was always fairly obvious that we should be playing in a similar system as he did for Juve, and the very brief time we played a similarly balanced midfield here he was brilliant. Like I said above, it wasn't just about the formation on paper, but the players in each role. Just saying we were playing a midfield three and he wasn't working is simplifying it way too much; it's like saying that Fergie's 442 was the same as the 442 that Derby were playing in the mid-90's.

I should also say that it's not just Pogba. We have spent more than a decade playing terribly balanced midfields in general, with players being asked to fill roles that don't suit them instead of actually building a midfield combination that complement each other. Unsurprisingly that then makes it much more difficult for each of those midfielders to actually perform. Hell, one of the midfield combos that most people are likely thinking about (Fred, McTominay and Pogba) somehow had all three of them being asked to fill roles that didn't suit them. Hence the idea that we 'built' our team around any of our midfielders is ridiculous to me.

I did specify the system at Juve and what we used for that brief period in 18/19 (a deeper-lying playmaker, a box-to-box harrier, and a more attack-focused floater with more freedom), but it didn't even need to be exactly that. Just a combination of players that complemented each other, covering each others weaknesses and helping each other out. The absolute basics of team-building, and basically what every successful team has been focusing on to a huge extent over the last 15 years in particular.
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Juve often played a 4-4-2 diamond, adding another workhorse in the midfield.
 
Hammondo said:
We kept changing our lineup to try and find this mythical best position, and to get the right players around him, but strangely every time we did, his best position/role suddenly changed.
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Matic, Herrera and Pogba was the best midfield trio we have had post-Ferguson, and Pogba looked really good. For someone who put up the number of assists he did while primarily playing as a deep lying playmaker (for whatever reason), he gets a lot of stick. He had his weaknesses that clearly made him not a good fit to play close to his own box, yet somehow that's the position he played for the most of the time. Despite this, he managed to produce assists at a rate similar to Bruno in three of his seasons. Ridiculous how wrongly he was used, and it's not a coincident he looked his best at France. However, he needs to take a lot of the blame on himself too. He dwelled on the ball far too much, and if he had concentrated on releasing the ball instead of showboating and being a highlight player, he would have been far, far better.
 
He could pull a comeback if he put his heart into it, only 32 and it's not like he was ever reliant on pace.
 
Red the Bear said:
He could pull a comeback if he put his heart into it, only 32 and it's not like he was ever reliant on pace.
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I think it’s unlikely, he’ll still have his passing which is dangerous. But prime Pogba was an athletic freak - forgot his name but a premier league midfielder said to him he shouldn’t be good at dribbling and quick for his height.
 
Brazilian_Ronaldo_9 said:
I think it’s unlikely, he’ll still have his passing which is dangerous. But prime Pogba was an athletic freak - forgot his name but a premier league midfielder said to him he shouldn’t be good at dribbling and quick for his height.
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The best players adapt as they age. Ronaldo relied less on his outright pace as he got older. As Pogba ages he can still lean on his passing ability and his physicality both of which is still some of his strongest attributes. Yes he may not be able to maintain those barn storming runs from deep but that's where you sign an athletic box to box midfielder next to him.
Pogba can easily be a Pirlo type if hes focused but therein lies the problem with him. It's not the physical but the mental side of his game.
 
Brazilian_Ronaldo_9 said:
I think it’s unlikely, he’ll still have his passing which is dangerous. But prime Pogba was an athletic freak - forgot his name but a premier league midfielder said to him he shouldn’t be good at dribbling and quick for his height.
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He shouldn't lose his physicality as he ages and it's not like he is a geriatric, he's only 32!

Maybe those niggling injuries he had with us and juve have done him in but I'd like to think having a year or two out to rest and recuperate may have done him good.

A lot of it depends on his mentality as well, he doesn't have much to prove and frankly I dont think he ever cared that much about proving anything when he got his move back to united, he's rich beyond messure and world cup winner so the motivation just might not be.
 
TsuWave said:
Myth
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MadDogg said:
Except we didn't and it's always been a ridiculous idea that we did. Building a team around him would imply that we played a style and bought players that would complement him and enable him to play his natural game. Which is basically the exact opposite of what we did, where he spent his entire time here being expected to play a role he was never suited to. The only time we actually spent a couple of months playing the system he clearly suited just so happened to be the best form of his career and the best performances the team have had since Fergie retired. Then we just ignored that and went back to playing him deeper again.

The related idea that people also talk about that he needed some very specific system also ignores that it was probably the most common system that the top teams in Europe were playing at the time.
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So Matic and Fred signings were myth alright? So much love for player who was busy whoring himself out for years.
 
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