Exactly my problem with Pogba. It was always everyone else's fault, never his....
Paul Pogba revisited
- Thread starter El Jefe
- Start date
Exactly my problem with Pogba. It was always everyone else's fault, never his....
I meant in terms of his skillset and his physical attributes and how they fit a role in a 2man United midfield. I think, it became clear very very fast that Pogba wasn't suited to such a role. Not because of quality or skill but simply because he wasn't suitable.
Not sure I would subscribe to the notion that such a vague thing as "culture" is the first part but I guess there is no point to really argue about that here. I agree, that this is an important part and I also would agree, that Pogba was a special kind of guy in terms of being a star. Not sure though, whether I would say that this effected his team work though. As I said, I don't think there was ever a point in time where he was a player suited to a deeper midfield role.
I'd say that this kind of thing was already there, even though adding Pogba to the mix might have accelerated some things. Pogba didn't "turn" Lingard and Rashford, the BS potential was already right there. Remember Memphis - he alone was all that even earlier.
I think, it is totally ok to dislike Pogba and be disappointed by how things turned out. I personally don't think though, that most of those things started with him or that he was exceptionally bad in those regards. So many things come together and there is a good chance, had we been more successful during that time, Pogba could have done the exact same things but would looked at differently now.
You are right. When it comes to figuring out who an option for our central midfield options could be or should be, then I think Bruno is misprofiled, when he was brought in, to revamp our chance creation department, I think the scouts were fairly spot on.
For the record - the last time I criticised him harshly is what feels like month in the past. And I certainly do not expect him to be anything more than a 10, no idea where the rest comes from, mate. Little odd reply.
Genuine question - are you implying that he intentionally missed games during winter? I wouldn't be able to answer the question, it's just that this is the first time I hear about this hypothesis.
A habit?
It was in his last season, and in the 19/20 season, not the last three years, and they were due to different injuries. The first one was a recurring ankle injury that kept him out for 6 months. The other was a hamstring injury that kept him out 3 months. It's actually unreal how far some are willing to go to try make him seem as unprofessional as possible. Because of two different injuries, as if no other player we've had recently have been out injured for a longer period.
Your problem with Pogba is something he never said himself, and based on something only fans were saying?
Probably because of his unique ability to look like both the most talented and worst player on the pitch at the exact same time.
I think some people just struggle with the idea it was down to him having the mindset of someone showing off in a playground, whilst playing against disciplined professional athletes.
I'd say whether he was overrated or underrated (or fairly rated) depends on who you were listening to.
Pogba was probably about 50/50 between good and bad. Obviously that's not good enough, so anybody making out he was consistently great was overrating him. However (and this is always my biggest issue with the amount of criticism he got), how many players in the squad were performing at better than a 50/50 rate during those years? Virtually none. So people who made out like he was one of our worst or was incredibly inconsistent while ignoring that almost every other player in the squad was worse were underrating him.
The best example was the season that Mourinho got fired. During the four months that Mourinho was here, Pogba and Shaw were the only players who actually played well for the first month. During the second month every player in the squad was poor. Mourinho was on the verge of being sacked, but Pogba and Martial then performed well for the third month and kept him in the job. Then they dropped off and every player was poor again in the fourth which ultimately resulted in Jose's sacking. So over that period Pogba was good 50% of the time, Shaw and Martial were each good about 25% of the time, and literally every other player in the squad was terrible for the entire time. Somehow Pogba was the face of getting him sacked, blamed by media and fans. Yes there were two or three games in that second bad period where he was truly awful and didn't look interested, but can you really blame him that much when he was the one being thrown under the bus despite being the only one who came close to performing?
Meanwhile there were players like Matic, whose absolute best season (his first) was 50/50 good and bad, then every remaining season it was more like 20/80 (he generally had one or two good months each season if we were lucky) yet people talk about him like he was much more professional, reliable and consistent.
Indeed, I always found it quite funny that in Mourinho's last season the only three players that actually had any good runs of form were the three players that he most criticised and disliked (Pogba, Martial and Shaw) while the two players who he absolutely loved and defended no matter what were by far our worst performing (Lukaku and Matic).
Obviously things did change in Pogba's last 18 months or so as he was physically broken by that stage. He just couldn't stay fit, and even when on the field you could tell he wasn't moving properly and he was consistently shit. Which is what continued at Juve, and I expect it was his desperation to get over that which caused him to dope.
But the problem with that is that none of the other players cost a world record £89m. So whilst he may not have been better or worse than the others, that price tag demands he be doing more, hence the criticism is higher.
He was one of our best players in each of his first four seasons though. It's not like he was no better than anyone else; if you took those four seasons as a whole Pogba was arguably our best player during that period. De Gea was the only one who could really dispute that, and even he was quite average throughout most of the third season and downright poor for the last 14 months of that period.
If Pogba was expected to be our best player every season, then he failed at that. There was only one season where he was actually our best. But in his first, second and fourth seasons he was still something like the third or fourth best, and the players that were ahead of him changed each time as they'd have one good season then drop off.
I've never liked blaming players for the fees that the clubs decided to pay, although to some extent I can understand it. It still went overboard with Pogba though. In an entire team of players that were underperforming, he seemed to get more blame, criticism and vitriol than every other player put together. Even when, like the example I gave with Mourinho's last season, he was basically the only one coming close to doing his job.
He was alright for us. People not seeing that are people who jumped on the daily mail narrative.
Also, most of the people around the club said he was a good guy, very respectful and he was working hard.
His issue was going a bit crazy on social media, having Raiola(RIP) as his agent and the crazy entourage around him. Also, Jose and his toxic personality at times didn't help.
Were the interviews and documentary cringe as hell, yes they were and he should look back at what he said. However, I think most people are mad at him because of the absolutely unreal talent he had, one he couldn't show off completely, for some reason, be it effort, injury, or anything else.
I watched him train in Miami a few years ago and the things he could do with a football were out of this world. He had a very good career by all accounts, however, he could have been one of the greats with a bit more effort, discipline and maturity.
Also, most of the people around the club said he was a good guy, very respectful and he was working hard.
His issue was going a bit crazy on social media, having Raiola(RIP) as his agent and the crazy entourage around him. Also, Jose and his toxic personality at times didn't help.
Were the interviews and documentary cringe as hell, yes they were and he should look back at what he said. However, I think most people are mad at him because of the absolutely unreal talent he had, one he couldn't show off completely, for some reason, be it effort, injury, or anything else.
I watched him train in Miami a few years ago and the things he could do with a football were out of this world. He had a very good career by all accounts, however, he could have been one of the greats with a bit more effort, discipline and maturity.
I think there is a generational element to fans’ views on Pogba. If you’re an old fart like me, that remembers a time before Fergie’s first title, it’s hard not to look at the haircuts, the daft dancing celebrations and having his own f**king emoji, and not think “what a massive weapon, where’s Keano when we need him?”. Perhaps not the same for the TikTok generation. I’d be genuinely curious to see how opinion on such a divisive player split across generational lines.
I'm 42 years old myself, so not an older fan but hardly a young one either. I would say I'm a very logical person who has always hated people getting treated unfairly or bullied, whether that was back in my school days, in my workplace, as a sportsman or just people in general. I also work in the media so have seen first hand how bullshit media can spin stories and make big deals about nothing so as to push the narrative that they want. Pogba definitely fits into that as far as I'm concerned. People complain about the haircuts and dancing, but the likes of Keane and Rooney were going out drinking, smoking, getting into fights, etc. Even Scholes recently said that he quite often had long drinking sessions the day before a game in his early years. So to me, having a bit of fun with some haircuts and dancing is a completely innocent way to spend their time which I honestly couldn't care less about, and is much more professional than what many of our legends were doing. I'll judge a player on their performances, and in Pogba's case he wasn't good enough but also was no where near as bad as people make out.
I can't think of any other player in Premier League history that got so criticised and hyper-focused on with every little thing being twisted negatively from the moment they came to the league until the moment they left. Yes, a few players got even more intense treatment for a year or two (Beckham and Ronaldo for instance after their World Cup moments), but not for their entire time. It's why I can't even hold the fact that he wanted to leave against him too much, as I look at how he was being treated by the media, the fans and the manager and think 'why the hell wouldn't he want to leave?'. Even as a huge Utd fan I probably would have wanted to leave in his position.
This is far too much nuance I'm afraid mate.
Don't you know that we only live on extreme hyperbole and tribalism here?
There's a generational gap and there's also good old dose of racism in there as well.
That's a hell of claim. If true, why do you think that happened? There must be a reason?
From my perspective, I can think of loads of big money flops, at many different clubs who got intense scrutiny (which included criticism, as appropriate) from Veron to Wirtz. It comes with the territory when a player signs for a massive fee and doesn't deliver on expectations.
I don’t think being old has anything to do with that. There’s plenty of old folks that know how dumb it is to take issue with player haircuts or dancing celebrations. I mean, it’s not as if Pogba was a pioneer on any of these fields, in any case.
The “where’s Keane when you need him?” And adjacent/implied talking points have also always been hilarious to me. What the hell do people think Keane would or could do with 6’3 Pogba that United captains during Pogba’s time here couldn’t?
Same as he did to team mates at every team he captained, instilled a winning mentality, led from the front and inspired them to up their fecking game. Something that "United captains during Pogba’s time here" have generally all been crap at, with Pogba and everyone else.
So why is Pogba's haircuts and dances being used as a segue for criticism of United captains in general? Especially, as a call back for "back in the days" type rhetoric. Did players not have flamboyant haircuts or dance during Keane's time or something?
United was relatively competitive with Pogba, mind.
I don't think either of them got anywhere near as much scrutiny as Pogba did. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong with Wirtz, but so far he's been far worse than Pogba started for us but hasn't got the same level of focus from what I've seen. I reckon it'll take just a couple of semi-decent games and the media will start blowing smoke up his arse.
Why? A combination of many things I believe. We're Man Utd and we all know negativity about Utd gets views (plus much of the media and commentators seem to dislike us due to us dominating in the Fergie years). We were a couple of years into a poor period after our glory years, which was the perfect situation to have somebody to be the figurehead of that failure and Pogba's fee and public standing made it him. Mourinho also did his usual toxic ploy of publicly throwing a couple of players under the bus to take the focus off himself (who can forget Jose deliberately waiting until the cameras were at the training ground before he went out and told Pogba he was being stripped of vice-captaincy?). Then there's cultural aspects, as seen by how much negativity was directed towards things like haircuts, dancing, music and being a bit flashy, in good old England where you're supposed to be a bit dour and getting shit-faced at the pub during the week is much more acceptable. And unfortunately linked to that, racism plays its part with some groups.
I do agree with you here to some extent, although not in the sense of having problems with haircuts and whatnot. Our real lack of leadership pushed Pogba into that role long before he was ready. He's naturally the type who was a social leader who people gravitate to, which is not the same as somebody who is setting the standards and keeping everybody focused and driven week-in week-out. If he'd had that kind of support structure around him he may have developed into that kind of leader by his late 20's (like Evra did), but he basically ended up being the dressing room leader by default way too early.
I don't think generation has anything to do with it. He just wasn't as good as we expected him to be for us. I was never arsed with all the dancing and what not... it was always about his on pitch performances.
They didn't have Darth Souness spouting nonsense about them every other day to be fair.
Im 40, watched Utd since I can remember... The dancing annoyed me a little bit, wasnt bothered about the haircuts really, until he dyed it City blue the day before a derby (we did ok in that game if i remember, but fck me, some self awareness is in order)
What really got to me when at the games was, for example, when we were down a goal or two and you would find him doing stepovers in his own half with no one else near him. He didnt seem like someone as Keano and co have said "you'd want in the trenches with you when your desperate"
With me I just wished he had of put his head down and focused soley on his football, as he could have been very good.. he falls into that group of individuals that seemingly tried to have themselves as a brand before a footballer... From the social dancing videos to his announcement video with Stormzy acting like he was a rapper or something, we seen it with a few of them lads... Just get your game in order first then the other stuff will follow.
At the end of the day, no one would have cared about the dancing and haircuts if he had been performing, but he simply wasnt.
Couldn't care less about haircuts or dancing but I seriously doubt any team mate of Keane's would have got away with swanning off to Dubai for a couple of weeks in the sun, mid season, after pulling their hamstring.
That's a good/interesting analysis and I agree. He obviously had bags of charisma and was the sort of huge personality who would exert a pull on other players in the group. If that could have been used more constructively it could have been a real asset to the club. In reality, it probably had the opposite effect.
There was the Sharpey Shuffle. He looked great doing that celebration. Pogba looked like he was on LSD.
It’s interesting reading the comments in this thread and then comparing them to what Ian Wright said today on The Overlap.
You can see how difficult it becomes for people who want to call out the blatant racism tied to what Pogba represents as a Black man, only for it to be dismissed or downplayed — largely because many still fail to acknowledge their own unconscious bias.
Talking about he failed to achieve what was expected of him. Like we have a long list of players who have over the past 10 years.
You can see how difficult it becomes for people who want to call out the blatant racism tied to what Pogba represents as a Black man, only for it to be dismissed or downplayed — largely because many still fail to acknowledge their own unconscious bias.
Talking about he failed to achieve what was expected of him. Like we have a long list of players who have over the past 10 years.
Imagine being black and dancing like Michael Jackson but because it’s football… being told the white guy who dances like Mick Jagger… not even Justin Timberlake… Is cooler than you.
The feck?
Yeah, and those players have all got piles of abuse for it, or have you never ventured into any of the threads for Antony, Sancho, Mount, Hojlund, Maguire (before his turnaround in the last year or so)?
If you feel like it’s the same level of abuse and energy, fair enough. I’m not going to disagree or attempt to argue back.
Maguire and Antony each spent a long time as arguably the most abused and mocked players in world football. Maguire had a bomb threat called in to his house.
It just doesn't count for as much because it can't be ascribed to race?
Pogba was getting constant abuse even when he was United’s best player. That’s the key difference.
Did he? He was definitely singled out for attention from the likes of the Daily Mail and Graeme Souness, and if you want to say that the media stuff from sources like that was at least in part racially motivated, you'll get no argument at all from me.
But in the wider football world, from actual fans etc, while he was playing well?
100% agreed and that is why I tend to just stay out of Pogba conversation, as there has always been undertones of unconscious racial/cultural issues and I cannot be bothered to get into any back and forth, especially with anyone who is ignorant and inexperienced in such areas so I am glad that Wrighty finally name dropped Pogba and the scrutiny he faced in that fashion.
There is a lot I could say about how dance etc. is common among Afro/Caribbean cultures and within South America but not so much here and instead of simply embracing the expression of joy (most often in his own home, on his own social media) you will see people use it to question his ability and professionalism. You see many athletes who are no different to Pogba behaviourally in black dominated sports in the USA and it is not seen in anywhere near the same way. Even a player like Lewa does silly TikTok dances and no one would ever say that he "needs to concentrate on his football".
Pogba dyed his hair blue, we played City weeks later and somehow he was ridiculed for having blue hair and trying to flirt with City because there were rumours. He went and won us the game from 2-0 down at HT but barely a peep. Any time he did good, it was instantly forgotten the moment he did anything bad but we were our most exciting and most competitive during his era despite him being labelled far worse than some absolute jokers we've seen get chants and love from fans like Donny bloody Van de Beek.
I bet you were at an impressionable age back then.
Antony wasn't remotely at the same level. Maguire was for a year or two, but that was during a period he was performing truly unbelievably badly. Still no excuse for how over-the--top some of it went obviously, but it was directly linked just to performances which is why he never had it before that period and it quickly died down once he got his shit back together on the field.
Not going to speak about Bellingham because I am not sure what has gone on there - Comes across like a bit of a bell but not outside of the realms of a footballer with his talent/ambition.
I generally agree with Wright's point about the press, but he lost me when he mentioned Pogba.
It boils down to this, if you deliver on the pitch you will be able to do what you like and people will find the dancing, etc endearing. Pogba's talent was undeniable and the frustration comes from his inability to apply it consistently across various positions in the pitch - It may be the case that we overestimated his ability to do that.
People have cited the drinking culture in Keane's era, the difference is that they won the league most years, so no one cared. There have been examples of players like Beckham who were moved on when they started wanting more beyond football or Sharpe when he was not focused enough or could no longer deliver.
Being flash and the dancing, etc becomes an issue when the team is in the toilet and you are perceived to not care, and whilst everyone shows this differently, posting videos on social media of you dicking around will rub people the wrong way when things aren't going well. They need to accept the fallout of that if that's what they put out into the world - Lingard also suffered because of this.
On the point of humble players like Kante and Guehi getting lauded - I think people generally tend to like players who carry themselves like this better than arrogant ones - Always loved Mata because despite his immense talent that is how he came across. I've noticed the same with Haaland now - Despite being one of the best players in the world, people are starting to like him outside of City and his NT due to coming across quite down to earth. I would say that someone like Ibrahimovic was liked despite his attitude because he was the man and delivered in his time here.
As for the Maddison shout, IMO is not a fair comparison as he plays for Spurs, is not a fixture in the England team and was not signed for anywhere near as much money. Without knowing too much, he seems alright, decent player in his time but wasn't able to make the next step in his career - I saw him catching some criticism for watching a game with a social media guy the other day, which is fair enough and indicative of where his career is going.
I generally agree with Wright's point about the press, but he lost me when he mentioned Pogba.
It boils down to this, if you deliver on the pitch you will be able to do what you like and people will find the dancing, etc endearing. Pogba's talent was undeniable and the frustration comes from his inability to apply it consistently across various positions in the pitch - It may be the case that we overestimated his ability to do that.
People have cited the drinking culture in Keane's era, the difference is that they won the league most years, so no one cared. There have been examples of players like Beckham who were moved on when they started wanting more beyond football or Sharpe when he was not focused enough or could no longer deliver.
Being flash and the dancing, etc becomes an issue when the team is in the toilet and you are perceived to not care, and whilst everyone shows this differently, posting videos on social media of you dicking around will rub people the wrong way when things aren't going well. They need to accept the fallout of that if that's what they put out into the world - Lingard also suffered because of this.
On the point of humble players like Kante and Guehi getting lauded - I think people generally tend to like players who carry themselves like this better than arrogant ones - Always loved Mata because despite his immense talent that is how he came across. I've noticed the same with Haaland now - Despite being one of the best players in the world, people are starting to like him outside of City and his NT due to coming across quite down to earth. I would say that someone like Ibrahimovic was liked despite his attitude because he was the man and delivered in his time here.
As for the Maddison shout, IMO is not a fair comparison as he plays for Spurs, is not a fixture in the England team and was not signed for anywhere near as much money. Without knowing too much, he seems alright, decent player in his time but wasn't able to make the next step in his career - I saw him catching some criticism for watching a game with a social media guy the other day, which is fair enough and indicative of where his career is going.
People like to project culture war stuff (it’s all racist) and their own reasons why Pogba was so divisive. I reject. the concept that people who got animated about his time at the club are automatically doing so because of his skin color and think it spoils any meaningful objective discussion.
Are some or many people and dumbass papers driven by racist narratives ? Of course and yes people can be singled out unfairly for their skin color.
I will only speak from my own perspective but I don’t like the drama that comes with a lot of modern footballers. I think a big part of the problem with United was that under Woodward they were encouraged to be online and do twitter stuff. His words after Pogba joined were something to the effect like “there was never so much traffic on the website”. Pogba was tarnished from the start as a Woodward signing (for me) and Woodwards reluctance to sell (even when the player was wanted to leave) Further solidified that belief.
His social media stuff wasn’t a problem until it was a problem. He mentioned it himself at one point , think during World Cup for France; that he didn’t do the social media stuff during the tournament because it was causing him issues and he didn’t want the distraction. You can argue that it really shouldn’t have mattered but the fact that it was affecting him and he would only reel it in for France annoyed me. United’s most expensive footballer and highest paid will do what he has to be focused for France but f**l United.
His form was jekyl and Hyde , his demeanor at times was exactly like what he was saying an unhappy player. His form when ole came in was a glimpse of what he could of done but didn’t for whatever reason. 4 months of unreal world class pogba out of 6 years. Not entirely his fault as conditions at the club weren’t ideal but when you look at what Bruno gives us in an even worse squad it’s hard to not think Pogba simply wasn’t really mentally on board at United and only sporadically was able to motivate himself.
The club has a lot to answer for and played a huge role in him being the pantomime villain. But you need only look at how much abuse Bruno gets from our own fans and non United fans , just because he whinges and Bruno consistently recovers his form and performs 7/10 plus in most games. The rare games he’s poor he gets hammered.
The best players at United are held to a ridiculous level at times. Hell even Weghorst, who wasn’t great , but wasn’t costing much, got dogs abuse from our fans. And Harry Maguire has been hammered badly and out of order by United fans who shouldn’t be ashamed of themselves.
I think zlatan and Ronaldo are the benchmark for social media footballers. It had zero affect on their form or performances. Once a player starts to look for attention online , unfortunately it could become toxic when they aren’t performing for their team. If I had my way, professional footballers wouldn’t have any online presence to protect them and allow them to focus on their profession. It’s only a short decade long career and while “they are young lads” is what some people think means they should be just left to it , I think it has more potential to do more harm then good for them.
So, for me Pogba was an unbelievable player who should not of been at United more then 3 years. He wanted to leave to be fair but over 6 seasons i would not reflect back fondly as id imagine he wouldn’t either. His career nearly has a bit of a tragic Gazza (for different reasons) feel to it. Superb footballer who never really got to showcase their quality in the best years.
I think he was badly advised and didn’t have good support helping him make good decisions on and off the field. People always speak very fondly about him which is a shame that this private version of who he is simply didn’t seem to come out publicly in a meaningful way while at United. I hope he can reignite his career and finish strong.
Are some or many people and dumbass papers driven by racist narratives ? Of course and yes people can be singled out unfairly for their skin color.
I will only speak from my own perspective but I don’t like the drama that comes with a lot of modern footballers. I think a big part of the problem with United was that under Woodward they were encouraged to be online and do twitter stuff. His words after Pogba joined were something to the effect like “there was never so much traffic on the website”. Pogba was tarnished from the start as a Woodward signing (for me) and Woodwards reluctance to sell (even when the player was wanted to leave) Further solidified that belief.
His social media stuff wasn’t a problem until it was a problem. He mentioned it himself at one point , think during World Cup for France; that he didn’t do the social media stuff during the tournament because it was causing him issues and he didn’t want the distraction. You can argue that it really shouldn’t have mattered but the fact that it was affecting him and he would only reel it in for France annoyed me. United’s most expensive footballer and highest paid will do what he has to be focused for France but f**l United.
His form was jekyl and Hyde , his demeanor at times was exactly like what he was saying an unhappy player. His form when ole came in was a glimpse of what he could of done but didn’t for whatever reason. 4 months of unreal world class pogba out of 6 years. Not entirely his fault as conditions at the club weren’t ideal but when you look at what Bruno gives us in an even worse squad it’s hard to not think Pogba simply wasn’t really mentally on board at United and only sporadically was able to motivate himself.
The club has a lot to answer for and played a huge role in him being the pantomime villain. But you need only look at how much abuse Bruno gets from our own fans and non United fans , just because he whinges and Bruno consistently recovers his form and performs 7/10 plus in most games. The rare games he’s poor he gets hammered.
The best players at United are held to a ridiculous level at times. Hell even Weghorst, who wasn’t great , but wasn’t costing much, got dogs abuse from our fans. And Harry Maguire has been hammered badly and out of order by United fans who shouldn’t be ashamed of themselves.
I think zlatan and Ronaldo are the benchmark for social media footballers. It had zero affect on their form or performances. Once a player starts to look for attention online , unfortunately it could become toxic when they aren’t performing for their team. If I had my way, professional footballers wouldn’t have any online presence to protect them and allow them to focus on their profession. It’s only a short decade long career and while “they are young lads” is what some people think means they should be just left to it , I think it has more potential to do more harm then good for them.
So, for me Pogba was an unbelievable player who should not of been at United more then 3 years. He wanted to leave to be fair but over 6 seasons i would not reflect back fondly as id imagine he wouldn’t either. His career nearly has a bit of a tragic Gazza (for different reasons) feel to it. Superb footballer who never really got to showcase their quality in the best years.
I think he was badly advised and didn’t have good support helping him make good decisions on and off the field. People always speak very fondly about him which is a shame that this private version of who he is simply didn’t seem to come out publicly in a meaningful way while at United. I hope he can reignite his career and finish strong.
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All footballers avoid criticism when they're playing well. That's the nature of football. And this includes Pogba. You will get a minority of dickheads who refuse to acknowledge a player who has come good after a spell of bad form and an even smaller minority who will continually hate a footballer for reasons that have nothing to do with form (and this includes racial hatred) but focusing on this minority ignores the overwhelming praise and support that footballers get from fans when they're delivering on the pitch.
I broadly agree with all of this. My biggest issue, which you allude to, is how much he was the on field embodiment of the Woodward era. Glitz, celebrity, social media traffic, with being a functioning, successful football team somewhere way down the priority list.
That period really turned me off us as a club. It felt crass, gauche and classless. We were basically Real but without winning stuff. Might feel harsh to single Pogba out, but as the record signing and highest profile player, he was the poster boy for it.
And yes, Bruno is a massive fanny on the pitch, by any measure, but antics are far more tolerable when he’s clearly busting his ass to help us win every time he sets foot on the pitch. No one cares about all the other stuff if the commitment is absolutely unquestionable. That wasn’t true of Pogba.
I also don't remember Pogba ever getting overly abused when playing well. What he would get is a disproportionate number of people willing to defend or make bizarre excuses for him when he was playing badly (remember when it was Mourinho's fault for not playing him on the left of a midfield 3, and then he did, and Pogba was still shite, but then it was the rest of the team's fault for not allowing him to play in the position correctly?). This silliness IS something that was fairly unique to Pogba.
As, far more annoyingly, is this occasional insinuation from frankly, dickheads, who suggest that criticising Pogba makes you racist. Which is incredibly selective in itself when Marcus Rashford for example, received a stupid amount of abuse and criticism on here when he was banging in 30 goals in a single season, and I don't remember one single person making the same accusations regarding him. Although that's probably because having an opinion on a football forum about whether a footballer is good or not, even if it's a stupid one, has absolutely nothing to do with racism.
Pogba is probably the most frustrating player I've ever witnessed. He had everything in his asset to become the best AMC in football history. He had size, he had speed, he had physical strength, he had amazing dribbling skills and towards the early part of his career he had ambition as well. Unfortunately he was too impatient at the earliest part of his career. That led to him leaving United who wanted to develop him properly to move to Juventus.
At Juventus they could close an eye or two to his inexperience simply because they had one of the best CM of the time. Vidal was at the time the closest there was to prime Roy Keane while Pirlo provided the leadership and football IQ Pogba needed. Pogba brought pace, speed, power and flair to that midfield however that's all they needed from him. Add to Juventus managers of the time (Conte and Allegri) who couldn't be arsed developing him + the Serie A whose slow pace and little physicality allowed Pogba time to think and a chance to batter ram his way into any defense and Pogba became an imperfect beast of a player who was suited for the Serie A but hardly anywhere else.
Pogba should have never came to United. Mourinho didn't really liked him and Woodward wanted him as a slap to the face to the old regime. That added a certain hostility by the old guard but it also contributed for certain good criticism to be taken the wrong way. Most of that criticism came from Paul Scholes who was the exact opposite to Paul Pogba.The ginger prince became an exceptional CM despite his limitations (asthma, lack of height, trained to be a striker for most of his early career), Pogba on the other had won the football and genetic lottery. He was designed to become a WC midfielder, at par if not better to Zidane.
Then Ole came in and the agony aunt era started built on vibes and hugs. We had players who pretty much did whatever they wanted which suited Pogba and his mates JLingz, Rashy and co. It didn't help that United would develop an obsession on no 10s. Bruno came in, Pogba was expected to play deeper and guess what? Apart from rare exceptions no 10s playing as No 8s is hardly the best of ideas. Suddenly Pogba was expected to cover a ridiculous amount of pitch, defend, drop deep, tackle and do all those stuff he didn't like to do, he had no intention of doing and quite frankly didn't know very much how to do them. Worse still he didn't had Deschamps or Conte (two former hardworking CMs) to understand him nor he had Kante and Vidal covering his arse. What he had was a Matic who was way past in best, Mou who had since entered his toxic era and of course Ole whose tactics seems to be a copy and paste from FM.
Once again Pogba fount himself on a free but the guy Juve signed second time round was not the kid who was hungry for success they signed from us earlier on. He was obsessed on his brand, he had lost his love towards football or any sort of hardwork and was, quite frankly, looking for his last pay cheque. We had lost an entire generation of players (Rashford, JLingz, Pogba and others) simply because we prefer to hug players then instil some proper discipline inside the club.. So in the end even Juve ended up with their fingers burnt.
At Juventus they could close an eye or two to his inexperience simply because they had one of the best CM of the time. Vidal was at the time the closest there was to prime Roy Keane while Pirlo provided the leadership and football IQ Pogba needed. Pogba brought pace, speed, power and flair to that midfield however that's all they needed from him. Add to Juventus managers of the time (Conte and Allegri) who couldn't be arsed developing him + the Serie A whose slow pace and little physicality allowed Pogba time to think and a chance to batter ram his way into any defense and Pogba became an imperfect beast of a player who was suited for the Serie A but hardly anywhere else.
Pogba should have never came to United. Mourinho didn't really liked him and Woodward wanted him as a slap to the face to the old regime. That added a certain hostility by the old guard but it also contributed for certain good criticism to be taken the wrong way. Most of that criticism came from Paul Scholes who was the exact opposite to Paul Pogba.The ginger prince became an exceptional CM despite his limitations (asthma, lack of height, trained to be a striker for most of his early career), Pogba on the other had won the football and genetic lottery. He was designed to become a WC midfielder, at par if not better to Zidane.
Then Ole came in and the agony aunt era started built on vibes and hugs. We had players who pretty much did whatever they wanted which suited Pogba and his mates JLingz, Rashy and co. It didn't help that United would develop an obsession on no 10s. Bruno came in, Pogba was expected to play deeper and guess what? Apart from rare exceptions no 10s playing as No 8s is hardly the best of ideas. Suddenly Pogba was expected to cover a ridiculous amount of pitch, defend, drop deep, tackle and do all those stuff he didn't like to do, he had no intention of doing and quite frankly didn't know very much how to do them. Worse still he didn't had Deschamps or Conte (two former hardworking CMs) to understand him nor he had Kante and Vidal covering his arse. What he had was a Matic who was way past in best, Mou who had since entered his toxic era and of course Ole whose tactics seems to be a copy and paste from FM.
Once again Pogba fount himself on a free but the guy Juve signed second time round was not the kid who was hungry for success they signed from us earlier on. He was obsessed on his brand, he had lost his love towards football or any sort of hardwork and was, quite frankly, looking for his last pay cheque. We had lost an entire generation of players (Rashford, JLingz, Pogba and others) simply because we prefer to hug players then instil some proper discipline inside the club.. So in the end even Juve ended up with their fingers burnt.