Paul Scholes: Give Ole Until The End Of The Season

NZT-One

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No, honestly it really is that simple as long as you don’t just throw darts blindfolded as we’ve done with the mish mash of coaching styles we’ve enjoyed.

Let’s say you want organised press and direct football. You stick to that and simply find the best available candidates and hope your 1st pick becomes available. You can’t wait around for coaches who might not even be good when they arrive.
There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
 

Flytan

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There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
What if you know that 4-6 is an upgrade that you currently emlpy though? Why not just take the upgrade now and improve the club and then make the move for 1 or 2 when they become better? Basically if you know you have the 10th best choice right now why wouldn't you go for the 6th best option?

That's where I'm at with ole. There's plenty of improvements on him even if they aren't the first or second choice. It's like city with Pelligrini, they knew they wanted Pep eventually but instead of sticking with a known commodity in Mancini who won stuff they saw someone who wasn't their first choice but still someone they saw as an upgrade.
 

Mike Smalling

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I agree with Paul. Ole needs time to dig a proper hole for the next manager to crawl out of. It's just the way we do things at this club.
 

tomaldinho1

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There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
This is my point and why it is so easy. If there was only one way to press it would be harder to find the right coach but every coach is different, that is a good thing, however you can point to at least 5 managers in the PL alone who have built a solid pressing team. Therefore, if you said I want an attacking and direct coach AND someone who can coach a press you have a good sized group of candidates to choose from and don't put all your eggs in one basket. This is how all businesses operate, there'll always be a few preferred candidates but you don't just wait and hope, you are proactive and you never know if your top pick is better than your 4th or 5th pick.

Put it this way, if football was about what you say and not what you do, Ole would be doing really well because after 3 years we'd be pressing like an elite team and being direct (given those are complementary facets of the game).
 

shinpad

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Formations apart i think Ole needs to be more ruthless with the players who do not perform, drop them and play someone else keep picking Pogba is just insane ,Maguire is having a mare make at statement and manage them with the axe, get Jones back in or sell him, give DVB more games he's got plenty of options but does nowt.
 

NZT-One

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What if you know that 4-6 is an upgrade that you currently emlpy though? Why not just take the upgrade now and improve the club and then make the move for 1 or 2 when they become better? Basically if you know you have the 10th best choice right now why wouldn't you go for the 6th best option?

That's where I'm at with ole. There's plenty of improvements on him even if they aren't the first or second choice. It's like city with Pelligrini, they knew they wanted Pep eventually but instead of sticking with a known commodity in Mancini who won stuff they saw someone who wasn't their first choice but still someone they saw as an upgrade.
There is one simple reasons. Groups or organisations have a limited amount of "change energy". If you change too much too quickly, resistance will emerge, bigger and bigger. There is a reason, why in the business world, changes more often than not are tried to implemented somewhat intricately and not one 180 turn after the other.

And you don't just want to waste your change energy on some sort of side step. It just isn't worth it. Plus lets be real here: we have the perfect example in Ole for how rarely a manager busts completely and without doubt. There will always be some level of ambivalency connected to it and once you start this short-term stuff, every instance of that becomes easier and easier and suddenly you find yourself in a place where you never wanted to be.

Just to make sure I don't get misunderstood: When I see, go only for #1 and #2 on your list, I don't mean at all costs. Of course I see that can't just wait three years until somebody might be available. What I am talking about is not forcing the issue right now but use the time until the summer to line everything up for the summer.

This is my point and why it is so easy. If there was only one way to press it would be harder to find the right coach but every coach is different, that is a good thing, however you can point to at least 5 managers in the PL alone who have built a solid pressing team. Therefore, if you said I want an attacking and direct coach AND someone who can coach a press you have a good sized group of candidates to choose from and don't put all your eggs in one basket. This is how all businesses operate, there'll always be a few preferred candidates but you don't just wait and hope, you are proactive and you never know if your top pick is better than your 4th or 5th pick.

Put it this way, if football was about what you say and not what you do, Ole would be doing really well because after 3 years we'd be pressing like an elite team and being direct (given those are complementary facets of the game).
See above for a few points. And I get your point about diverification, of course that is a plausible concept but the #1 or #2 candidate will only get to be the #1 and #2 because they gave our decision makers that they have a genuine motivation to coach this club. So I am not talking about waiting for somebody for 3 years, I am talking about waiting until the summer WHEN the #1 or #2 is not available right now or in the winter. If the #1 or #2 is available, I am with you, there is no point in waiting, but if availability isn't there, lets not go down the list.

Going down your list brought us Moyes. It brought Tottenham Nuno. That isn't the road to go.
 

Flytan

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There is one simple reasons. Groups or organisations have a limited amount of "change energy". If you change too much too quickly, resistance will emerge, bigger and bigger. There is a reason, why in the business world, changes more often than not are tried to implemented somewhat intricately and not one 180 turn after the other.

And you don't just want to waste your change energy on some sort of side step. It just isn't worth it. Plus lets be real here: we have the perfect example in Ole for how rarely a manager busts completely and without doubt. There will always be some level of ambivalency connected to it and once you start this short-term stuff, every instance of that becomes easier and easier and suddenly you find yourself in a place where you never wanted to be.

Just to make sure I don't get misunderstood: When I see, go only for #1 and #2 on your list, I don't mean at all costs. Of course I see that can't just wait three years until somebody might be available. What I am talking about is not forcing the issue right now but use the time until the summer to line everything up for the summer.



See above for a few points. And I get your point about diverification, of course that is a plausible concept but the #1 or #2 candidate will only get to be the #1 and #2 because they gave our decision makers that they have a genuine motivation to coach this club. So I am not talking about waiting for somebody for 3 years, I am talking about waiting until the summer WHEN the #1 or #2 is not available right now or in the winter. If the #1 or #2 is available, I am with you, there is no point in waiting, but if availability isn't there, lets not go down the list.

Going down your list brought us Moyes. It brought Tottenham Nuno. That isn't the road to go.
I get that and it makes perfect sense. I just feel like that "change energy" is much shorter than you, and that seems to be how most other clubs operate. Even Bayern replaces managers super quick if they aren't working out. I honestly think if we had just fired Ole after Leicester/Liverpool and brought Conte in we could have let him go at the end of the season without any more longterm damage than we will have with Ole (I'm convinced we'll have 4-5 players ask to leave). Hell Tottenham gave him 18 months. It's not a huge financial risk.

I just think people in general are far too scared of "failing" when it comes to the manager around this club. I get SAF was here forever, but it should be obvious to most people that he was the weird one, not the other clubs and managers.
 

redrobed

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
 

tomaldinho1

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There is one simple reasons. Groups or organisations have a limited amount of "change energy". If you change too much too quickly, resistance will emerge, bigger and bigger. There is a reason, why in the business world, changes more often than not are tried to implemented somewhat intricately and not one 180 turn after the other.

And you don't just want to waste your change energy on some sort of side step. It just isn't worth it. Plus lets be real here: we have the perfect example in Ole for how rarely a manager busts completely and without doubt. There will always be some level of ambivalency connected to it and once you start this short-term stuff, every instance of that becomes easier and easier and suddenly you find yourself in a place where you never wanted to be.

Just to make sure I don't get misunderstood: When I see, go only for #1 and #2 on your list, I don't mean at all costs. Of course I see that can't just wait three years until somebody might be available. What I am talking about is not forcing the issue right now but use the time until the summer to line everything up for the summer.


See above for a few points. And I get your point about diverification, of course that is a plausible concept but the #1 or #2 candidate will only get to be the #1 and #2 because they gave our decision makers that they have a genuine motivation to coach this club. So I am not talking about waiting for somebody for 3 years, I am talking about waiting until the summer WHEN the #1 or #2 is not available right now or in the winter. If the #1 or #2 is available, I am with you, there is no point in waiting, but if availability isn't there, lets not go down the list.

Going down your list brought us Moyes. It brought Tottenham Nuno. That isn't the road to go.
You're not reading my replies properly, I'm not just saying you make a list and go down it until someone says 'yes', I'm saying you make a list of managers with a broadly similar playing style and then work from that. Our approach post SAF was basically speak to all the big names and then, when no one was available, we went with someone unqualified. Exactly the same happened to Spurs.

On your points about 'change energy' that would only apply if United were hiring and firing multiple managers per season from a footballing perspective, we actually do the opposite but somewhere in the middle is correct. Going back to my OP you have to give a manager a year unless they are dreadful but then you can very easily judge their abilities to coach. Maybe our issue is Ole is not a coach and, I didn't actually realise this until recently, he also wasn't a hands on coach full time in Norway either, so it's hard to judge him because I don't really understand what he's doing (or more accurately judge him on what his job demands that he does). Transfers are a big team effort and he's not involved in scouting or negotiations, coaching isn't performed by him, it is set by him & he's not involved in the commercials so it is just hard to actually form an educated opinion.
 

Berbasbullet

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
The first sentence doesn’t match the second. :lol:
 

VanDeBank

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What the feck did I just read?
Lucky for you I have a degree in CAF, specialized in hysterics.

"I became a fan when we were winning everything left and right. It's been too long since we won a major trophy and I'm sick of my mates holding it over my head. I support Bayern Munich now. Sincerely, Redrobed"
 

dal

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

dal

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He should be given until the end of the season. Ole is primarily a counter attacking manager but is pragmatic, he has shown that largely. The last 6-7 months admittedly have been rather strange, we started the season with a great win but then inconsistencies have set in.

I disagree with his ruthlessness he has, he dropped Pogba largely like Mourinho but seems to manage to keep him on side to a certain extent. I don’t think any manager would drop Maguire, we don’t really have anyone better to play with Varane and he was really very good last season, as I said he needs to wake up.

I hope Ole can manage to turn it around he has shown throughout his tenure here that when his backs against wall he can find results. It will be difficult however as we don’t seem as creative in 3-5-2 but it’s really squeaky bum time at the minute when we play at the back with a 4. A harmony needs to be somehow found and managed well before it is.
 

crossy1686

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Lucky for you I have a degree in CAF, specialized in hysterics.

"I became a fan when we were winning everything left and right. It's been too long since we won a major trophy and I'm sick of my mates holding it over my head. I support Bayern Munich now. Sincerely, Redrobed"
Not that I agree with his statement but I could at least understand a bit better if this comment was made under LVG or Mourinho when we finished 6th or whatever it was.
 

NZT-One

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I get that and it makes perfect sense. I just feel like that "change energy" is much shorter than you, and that seems to be how most other clubs operate. Even Bayern replaces managers super quick if they aren't working out. I honestly think if we had just fired Ole after Leicester/Liverpool and brought Conte in we could have let him go at the end of the season without any more longterm damage than we will have with Ole (I'm convinced we'll have 4-5 players ask to leave). Hell Tottenham gave him 18 months. It's not a huge financial risk.

I just think people in general are far too scared of "failing" when it comes to the manager around this club. I get SAF was here forever, but it should be obvious to most people that he was the weird one, not the other clubs and managers.
I understand what you mean and I have no clue about the actual amount of change energy available or necessary. All just feelings. I am not sure, the Bayern example really fits, I mean, most other teams are used to operate with changing managers, but we do not belong in this list currently. We have done pretty bad with that going from Moyes over LVG to Mourinho. So yeah, once our infrastructure is robust and fire-proof with these things, I agree, you can act quickly in situations like that. But if I were United, I'd do whatever I can to be as good prepared as possible. And because I don't really think our guys have had a great contingency plan ready, I tend to say, alright, take a few weeks longer to make sure, we don't find ourselves again in the same situation in a year or so. The financial risk isn't even the headline for me. It is more connected to the professional outlook of the club, the reputation. I am sure, you can agree that some action that some people would describe as efficient, decisive and ambitious can be also described as overawed, underprepared and plan-less. And knowing that our reputation has suffered a lot in the last years, I'd like to pass on another opportunity.

You're not reading my replies properly, I'm not just saying you make a list and go down it until someone says 'yes', I'm saying you make a list of managers with a broadly similar playing style and then work from that. Our approach post SAF was basically speak to all the big names and then, when no one was available, we went with someone unqualified. Exactly the same happened to Spurs.

On your points about 'change energy' that would only apply if United were hiring and firing multiple managers per season from a footballing perspective, we actually do the opposite but somewhere in the middle is correct. Going back to my OP you have to give a manager a year unless they are dreadful but then you can very easily judge their abilities to coach. Maybe our issue is Ole is not a coach and, I didn't actually realise this until recently, he also wasn't a hands on coach full time in Norway either, so it's hard to judge him because I don't really understand what he's doing (or more accurately judge him on what his job demands that he does). Transfers are a big team effort and he's not involved in scouting or negotiations, coaching isn't performed by him, it is set by him & he's not involved in the commercials so it is just hard to actually form an educated opinion.
I understand what you mean but as explained above, while that resolute approach is also something, I would try to aspire to in the future, I am pretty doubtful, that the current personnel have that in them right now. We aren't as fire proven as Chelsea in that regard. Believe me, I am looking pretty much forward to see Conte for Spurs, to me it is a great opportunity to learn how things can pan out.

I know, my stance isn't the be all and end all but I think, the cautious approach is only one really feasible. Make a good plan, execute it. Give the staff a good chance to get some confidence with that plan and then go further from there. We should evolve into an organisation that isn't as reliable on the actual person of the manager as we are right now but I think, the right steps have been taken. I understand you seeing the situation as a reason to take action, makes sense and I tend to do the same but currently, all things considered, I don't really see the chances of a different manager coming in (interim or whatever) to replicate some sort of Tuchel as relatively slim. With that in mind I don't see the chance/risk relation as distinct as it would be needed in my point of view. Plus there is no obvious candidate anyway.
 

Xanther

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
Fam :lol: I'm stealing this
 

Wibble

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
Is this the worst post in living memory or the worst attempt to be a WUM in living memory? Impossible to tell.
 
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Ex Salford FC managers who have actually won titles and promotions only to get sacked months into the following season must listen to Scholes and Neville speak on tv and think what hypocrites.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Ex Salford FC managers who have actually won titles and promotions only to get sacked months into the following season must listen to Scholes and Neville speak on tv and think what hypocrites.
Good point.

I’m really surprised this doesn’t get brought up more on TV when Neville is giving it the ‘anyone but the manager’ guff.
 

elmo

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Formations apart i think Ole needs to be more ruthless with the players who do not perform, drop them and play someone else keep picking Pogba is just insane ,Maguire is having a mare make at statement and manage them with the axe, get Jones back in or sell him, give DVB more games he's got plenty of options but does nowt.
He's only ruthless to those not in his list of favourites.

He's just a terrible manager who plays favourites.
 

Micky Targaryen

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Is it me or am I in the minority when I say that it is understandable that Scholes backed Ole for more time during interviews? I think its just a natural instinct to back your mates in the public arena? Call it diplomatic or whatever, but there certain ways to carry yourself in an interview. I mean, how many of you would rip your mates apart on national television? If the press isn't looking for a biased opinion, then they shouldn't have interviewed Scholes in the first place. He may appear to be backing Ole, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is how he truly feels.

This video, however, is a more precise representation of how he actually feels, IMO.
 

Flexdegea

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I’ve stuck by the club through thick and thin but if Ole is still here at the end of the season I’m going to have to seriously consider my options. It’d seem the club’s ambitions do not match my own.
You won't be missed, please go to city or Chelsea, or even Liverpool. That would be great
 

Siezard

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Meanwhile, Scholes is hugely concerned by United's lack of direction under Solskjaer in his third full season in charge.

"The conviction has to come from the coach of the way you’re going to play football," said the 46-year-old. "Ole has been here three years now and we’ve come here today not really knowing what he’s going to do.

"That makes the recruitment almost impossible because you’re not buying players for a system.

Scholes added: "Three years down the line you can see the evidence on the pitch, today and two weeks ago we are a long way off.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/scholes-wanbissaka-solskjaer-man-utd-25397499
 

macheda14

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He was actually much worse pre-match, making some bizarre comments that Carrick should have refused to be caretaker manager basically
Comments that a lot of people on here have made. He's basically just a guy from the caf who happened to be one of the best footballers ever.
 

Rood

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Comments that a lot of people on here have made. He's basically just a guy from the caf who happened to be one of the best footballers ever.
Ye well a lot of people on here are morons

And whats the alternative anyway? Someone had to take charge of the game last night
 

KingCavani

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Scholes playing some fans like a fiddle here.

He was far, far worse than any of the pundits when it came to how he treated Ole relative to previous managers. I remember the Europa group games in our first season, nearly every time Scholes was going on and on how it wasn't good enough and how they should be winning the league now with the players they have and the money spent. He was similarly brutal with LVG. Even pre-match when he was listing off Ole's achievements that signified progress - Cup finals, semi finals, 2nd place - Jose did all that and more. Neville was at least consistent in defending all the managers that were here, even if he was kinder on Ole.

It's pretty obvious he's become self aware of the criticisms levelled at him and other United pundits and now he's going hard in the other direction to compensate.
 
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Neil_Buchanan

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Why is he a pundit? Given the fact he spent his entire career avoiding the media and now he sits there like a hostage wearing someone else’s suit, with this sour face and an unlimited supply of pessimism. He’s clearly not enjoying doing it, does he need the money or something?
 

hungrywing

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Why is he a pundit? Given the fact he spent his entire career avoiding the media and now he sits there like a hostage wearing someone else’s suit, with this sour face and an unlimited supply of pessimism. He’s clearly not enjoying doing it, does he need the money or something?
His wife forced him to because he was kicking balled-up socks from long range to do everything around the house.
 

bosnian_red

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He was actually much worse pre-match, making some bizarre comments that Carrick should have refused to be caretaker manager basically
Not really bizarre. Our coaching staff is a big part of the problem, they just aren't good enough. They all should've been replaced, the situation we find ourselves in now is a complete disaster and a joke. We sack a manager (who delegated most football related stuff to his assistants) once the international break is done, with seemingly no plan before hand, so we have no choice but to keep the same shit coaching staff while we scramble to find any manager to take us on until the summer (or full time if possible). I don't think I've ever seen a scenario quite so laughable at a big club.
 

Rood

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Not really bizarre. Our coaching staff is a big part of the problem, they just aren't good enough. They all should've been replaced, the situation we find ourselves in now is a complete disaster and a joke. We sack a manager (who delegated most football related stuff to his assistants) once the international break is done, with seemingly no plan before hand, so we have no choice but to keep the same shit coaching staff while we scramble to find any manager to take us on until the summer (or full time if possible). I don't think I've ever seen a scenario quite so laughable at a big club.
Well you obviously have a short memory - big clubs use caretakers and interims all the time, very often they come from within too

It is fair enough to say the coaches need to go eventually but the fact is that Ole was sacked on Sunday and we had a game 2 days later so someone needed to be in charge - keeping on Carrick et al proved to be the right decision as we won and qualified for the knockouts