The same happened with Klopp, as you pointed out. It took him a while to figure out the latter tactically, and now their performances against Liverpool have been more dominant and the City players are looking increasingly more at ease when playing Liverpool.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
If we are looking at resources vs what was achieved shouldn't Ranieri be the greatest EPL coach ever? Better than Klopp SAF Pep Wenger
Cos it seems its only when discussing Peps achievement that we always like to bring the money spent, while forgetting Man utd have spent more than City in the same time and failed to win
Cos it seems its only when discussing Peps achievement that we always like to bring the money spent, while forgetting Man utd have spent more than City in the same time and failed to win
Since the investment started, City won 2 titles in the initial 6 seasons. Since Pep came in they are on course for 4 in 6. It's not just the style.
It's not like they were light spenders earlier either. First two seasons they got expensive stars: Aguero, Dzeko, Balotelli, Tevez, David Silva, Yaya Toure, Adebayor, Nasri as well as expensive average players like Hart, Barry, Milner, Clichy, Sagna, Kolarov.
I also don't think the "2 first XIs" is true, at least since Aguero declined/left.
They have pretty average depth in forwards: Jesus, Foden, Sterling, Mahrez, Grealish for 3 positions. United have one more, and with much bigger names.
Defenders are well-stocked but nothing extraordinary outside some price-tags: Stones, Dias, Laporte, Ake at CB, Zinchenko, Walker, Cancelo as fullbacks. Technically United have two more! (5 CBs, 2 LBs, 2 RBs)
Midfield is also good but not insane spoilt: Rodri, Gundogan, Bernardo, KDB, Fernandinho. One less than our wretched midfield options!
Overall I don't think it's excessive (again, apart from some prices).
He came in with them established as league winners and spent a billion on the squad that already won those titles. It’s pretty easy to see why he might have added a few more!
He came into a team that already had a winning mentality and some world class quality….and spent a billion on it.
Compare his bench in any random fixture to what Liverpool have available.
His typical bench until very recently would have…
Stones, Ake, Zinchenko, Mendy (still a player he spent 50 million on and played until recently), Fernandinho, Gundogan, Grealish, Jesus, Ferran (who will be replaced)
It’s miles better than any rival and is worth an absolute fortune. Mendy, Fernandinho and Ferran will be replaced by very expensive players in the summer and we go again….
When Pep joined, he met City as the 4th placed team with 66points level with LVG Man Utd.
From then till now Man Utd has spent slightly more on than City that finished with 66points
Currently Man city does not have as much player depth as Man Utd or Chelsea. Their forward players are Grealish Foden Mahrez, Sterling and Jesus. Which of these would be the best attacker in your team?
Why are we comparing them with Liverpool? why not with Chelsea or Man Utd who have spent a billion dollars as well in the las 6 seasons?
Don't know why you'd use dollars as we're a British club using £s, of which we've spent £830m since Guardiola took over, in that time City have spent £960m. If you take out the first season he's spent £767m, United have spent £664m in the same timeframe.
I didn't mention just money as argument against Pep. I mentioned poor CL record few times and yet people who kept quoting me continued the argument like it's just about the money and PL, and kept ignoring the Champions League argument.
Even while he was in Barca his CL record was questionable, his team back then won just few CL away games despite Pep making them probably the best team ever. Even few games which helped him reach CL finals were suspicious refereeing wise, but that's another subject. His tactics just don't work that well against top teams, especially in champions league. If he didn't have the greatest player of all time in his team I doubt he would ever win the CL.
They lost against Chelsea literally because Chelsea were tactically the better team, despite City having far better XI and far better functioning team.
Even while he was in Barca his CL record was questionable, his team back then won just few CL away games despite Pep making them probably the best team ever. Even few games which helped him reach CL finals were suspicious refereeing wise, but that's another subject. His tactics just don't work that well against top teams, especially in champions league. If he didn't have the greatest player of all time in his team I doubt he would ever win the CL.
They lost against Chelsea literally because Chelsea were tactically the better team, despite City having far better XI and far better functioning team.
By general consensus we don't have the best team though. How many people would take Ederson over Alisson? Walker over Trent? Dias and Laporte over Van Dijk and Matip? It wasn't long ago that Henderson was in with PotY shouts, and nobody can deny Liverpool's front three is better than ours, whatever combination we put out.
The weirdest thing about being a City fan is being constantly told that none of your players are the best in the league in their positions but simultaneously Pep only wins because he has the best players.
The whole 4th place thing isn’t a reflection of where the squad was. They were fourth place because they announced Pep early and the team stopped playing for Pellegrini. That’s the only reason they were there.
Every single one of those forward players would get in United and Chelsea’s team, like it’s so far on the other extreme, it’s laughable. So I can’t agree with that point at all. City do spend their money better, but they have spent a lot of it.
The likes of Ferran and Aguero not being available is a pretty recent thing too, and a superstar striker will arrive in the summer.
I only compared them with Liverpool because there was a discussion comparing him and Klopp’s work.
The fact that United are where they are just goes to show how badly we are run from top to bottom. It actually hurts to even think about.
United’s waste doesn’t distract from the fact that City outspent everyone from a position of power. The wages they pay are up for debate and there is enough evidence out there to question what players actually receive.
The advantages he has are vast. He is still a great coach, but he couldn’t have been more catered for or be in a more privileged position than he is.
Oh cry me a river you’ve spent more than any team in football history and built a squad of 22 class players. Liverpool might well have some better players in their first 11 but their squad (and every squad) is miles weaker. City’s success will always be marked with blood money and that goes for Pep too.
Nope, that City squad was old and finished. Guardiola did everything possible to compete with it but that ended as his worst season as a manager. In the next years Pep did a total overhaul of the squad and as of now only Fernandinho, KDB and Sterling are pre-Guardiola players..
If Klopp and Pep had gone to opposite clubs 5 years ago (so Klopp to City and Pep to Liverpool), and all players bought remained exactly as today, how many league titles do you think Pep would have won while Klopp was his rival?
I'll take a guess, probably one.
But Klopp would have won 4 PL's and at least two CLs in that time, probably even three. Do you see what is being argued here?
Rubbish. They had a few ageing stars, but they also had de Bruyne, Fernandinho, Aguero, David Silva, Sterling and the experience of Yaya Toure and Kompany in the dressing room. He had a quality spine and even had young players like Iheanacho if he wanted to use them.
Not much of a surprise that only three players remain in 2022 from a squad he inherited in 2016 and spent £1 billion pounds on.
Liverpool's best 11 is a match for City's, that's true, but what happens when you go beyond those 11 players? The third and fourth choices for City are miles better, in fact they can virtually field two teams that match Liverpool's best lineup. That's where leagues are won, it's well known the 2008 Manchester United's best lineup only actually played together once, the squad is so important to win leagues and City are way ahead thanks purely to the oil money.
Incidentally it's also probably where the CLs are lost. Pep has bought himself two league capable teams but he needs a Messi to make either of them truly special, and he can't find one.
pep’s his own worst enemy. he’s not content with winning trophies or accolades, he is obsessed with being a tactical genius and wants to go down in history as a trail blazer. it’s not enough to win a champions league, he needs to do it whilst playing two right backs and no striker, or starting with 9 players and bringing the other two on after 20 minutes. everything has to be done in a way only he could do it. he even got a hold of his wife’s phone and changed his name in it to “maverick” hoping she’d spread the nickname round.
Biased unfalsifiable statements?
Sorry but that's just not how things work. And going by your logic, Mourinho for example should have won atleast 1 CL with both Chelsea and Madrid given the squads he had and what he had done at Porto, but he didn't.
Nothing guarantees that Klopp would have done better than Pep has done if he was at City and that Pep wouldn't have done as well if not better than what Klopp has done if he was at Liverpool. Your logic here doesn't make much sense, sorry.
Also, if we're going a coach performing against all odds, then let's just agree that Ranieri is better than both Klopp and Pep.
Given what Poch was able to do with low budget Spurs, if he gets to a mega star studded PSG he would win 5 CL titles in a row
I'm curious to see how Klopp would do in a team where he has the strongest squad in the league and is supposed to win it( in Pep's shoes).
Similarly would love to see Pep manage underdogs like Klopp has done.
Fascinating how those situations may turn out......
Similarly would love to see Pep manage underdogs like Klopp has done.
Fascinating how those situations may turn out......
citys full backs were Sagna Zabaleta Clichy Kolarov, Add to Mangala, Demichelis, Fernando Navas Toure you can guess what happened to their career immediately they left Citeh
Its like saying Man Utd had experience of Rooney Carrick and Schweinsteiger
This 100%. I haven't read for months and months what people write about City, it kinda became pointless. I mean I understand that after signing Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho in one summer that United fans must be absolutely humiliated but all these online hot takes are so freaking stupid, it's just a complete waste of time.
Pep should have won a CL at City, that's his mostly his fault with the amazing selection for the CL final when they were a better team than Chelsea by not picking Rodri and playing without a defensive midfielder. And he's also picked some very erratic teams, not picking De Bruyne against Spurs, picking 3 defensive midfielders for some reason against Lyon I think it was.
However, for the most part, the Champions League is too fickle to properly judge a manager, Ferguson won 2 of them, Zidane has won 3 of them, but nobody would say Zidane was a better manager. Wenger never won it at all etc. Winning leagues is a manager's bread and butter, then put their team in a position to win the CL and if it happens it happens. Guardiola is one of the best league managers of all-time. The level of consistency and control in his teams is amazing. He pretty much either wins the league or forces another team to reach ridiculous heights to beat him over a long period of time. Sure he has good teams, but who else is averaging about 90 points a season in the strongest and richest league in the world?
However, for the most part, the Champions League is too fickle to properly judge a manager, Ferguson won 2 of them, Zidane has won 3 of them, but nobody would say Zidane was a better manager. Wenger never won it at all etc. Winning leagues is a manager's bread and butter, then put their team in a position to win the CL and if it happens it happens. Guardiola is one of the best league managers of all-time. The level of consistency and control in his teams is amazing. He pretty much either wins the league or forces another team to reach ridiculous heights to beat him over a long period of time. Sure he has good teams, but who else is averaging about 90 points a season in the strongest and richest league in the world?
Yeah, who were immediately replaced by super expensive players and added to de Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero, Kompany, Fernandinho, David Silva etc…
So the only season he didn’t have a ridiculous first eleven, rather than a merely very good one was his first one.
He arrived as manager and had…
Kompany, Toure, Aguero, David Silva, Sterling Fernandinho and de Bruyne already in his squad
By the time he won his first title, he had brought in….
Stones, Sane, Gundogan, Jesus, Laporte, Mendy, Walker, Bernardo Silva, Ederson and Danilo to the tune of over €460 million (values from transfermarkt)
Like how impressed are we supposed to be exactly?
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I’m sure if it was citeh that got Sancho, Ronaldo and Verane in one transfer window, my fellow fans would be screaming injustice. There is something I will never fail to admit about this citeh side as follows: their manager has a crystal clear vision of what he wants to do and how he wants to do it such that even when you remove some key personnel, the gap is not usually obvious.
I was once convinced Gundogan was finished but the guy had a good claim for player of the season last term and that was after KDB got injured and many were waiting for Pep to fail saying, “let’s see how he’ll cope without his star man now.”
I was once convinced Gundogan was finished but the guy had a good claim for player of the season last term and that was after KDB got injured and many were waiting for Pep to fail saying, “let’s see how he’ll cope without his star man now.”
Kompany was always injured and only featured prominently in his 2nd league title, Yaya barely played for Pep he was as important as Carrick to Man Utd
Last seasons title was won without any of those players he already had in the squad, Man Utd have spent how much again and are nowhere close to the title
You just signed Varane Ronaldo serial winners and an expensive Sancho yet not close to being competitive. In addition to Lukaku Bailly, Pogba Lindelof, Fernandes etc
Klopp is basically the Rafael Benítez of this era. Only time will tell if he follows a similar path or passes him.
It doesn’t change the fact that he spent £450 million in his first calendar year in charge on top of the quality that was already there to win his first title.
It has been six years since his arrival, and those initial players have been key to those title wins. It’s not a surprise they have moved on to be replaced by more mega expensive stars since then.
The fact that United spent big last summer doesn’t change any of those facts.
Always thought he was destined to manage us..never gonna happen now and it’s fookin depressing
We'd ending up getting him past his best, I wonder if he has peaked or if that's still to come.
Better to go for the next up and comer who's hungry to be the best, I don't know if that's Ten Haag or another manager but we need someone who will stop at nothing to make United a force again.
You always see people attempting to either rubbish or downplay Guardiola’s achievements, and to apply conditions to him that are not applied to other managers. It’s obviously a bit of jealousy, though fans will rarely admit that. But people who regularly move the goalposts to attempt to portray him as some chequebook manager who just spends more than everyone and wins by default - well those people would do well to remember these words - “it’s better to be thought a fool, than to type on redcafe and remove all doubt”.
Seriously though, his credentials as one of the games greatest ever coaches are beyond question now. It’s best just to suck it up, accept it and hope that he either moves on, loses his drive, or that United manage to source another coach who’s able to cause him problems the way Tuchel and Klopp did for a while. He won’t be in this league forever and I’m sure with his full on approach to the job he won’t be in this game as long as SAF, who is still the master.
He had a rough first season with a squad that was more or less done. People (including pundits) said “ah see he can’t just stroll in and win in the premier league, this is a different level” with people predicting this was him being found out (as seen by sack threads etc). He then proceeded to overhaul his squad, create one that wasn’t full of superstar names but was balanced, and win in style with records points totals. Even when Klopp bested him, again people predicted it was the end for Guardiola, a downward spiral was now looming. But now he’s a hair from making it 4 titles in 6, so maybe the desperate need to try and muddy his accomplishments is really just people a bit angry or disappointed that their predictions of him being sacked and running off with his tail between his legs, didn’t come to fruition. Because instead he continues to adapt and find solutions to the coaches who are giving him the biggest tests.
Seriously though, his credentials as one of the games greatest ever coaches are beyond question now. It’s best just to suck it up, accept it and hope that he either moves on, loses his drive, or that United manage to source another coach who’s able to cause him problems the way Tuchel and Klopp did for a while. He won’t be in this league forever and I’m sure with his full on approach to the job he won’t be in this game as long as SAF, who is still the master.
He had a rough first season with a squad that was more or less done. People (including pundits) said “ah see he can’t just stroll in and win in the premier league, this is a different level” with people predicting this was him being found out (as seen by sack threads etc). He then proceeded to overhaul his squad, create one that wasn’t full of superstar names but was balanced, and win in style with records points totals. Even when Klopp bested him, again people predicted it was the end for Guardiola, a downward spiral was now looming. But now he’s a hair from making it 4 titles in 6, so maybe the desperate need to try and muddy his accomplishments is really just people a bit angry or disappointed that their predictions of him being sacked and running off with his tail between his legs, didn’t come to fruition. Because instead he continues to adapt and find solutions to the coaches who are giving him the biggest tests.
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Pep is a man of his word. He intends to walk away summer 2023. We need to get our house in order this summer or this could be it for us. No more mistakes.
City already won the league this year and they will no doubt be heavy favs to win it again next season too. Then the league becomes an open contest again if Pep does walk. We need to give ourselves a chance in 23/24 season by getting the next manager appointment right and recruitment decisions right too.
City already won the league this year and they will no doubt be heavy favs to win it again next season too. Then the league becomes an open contest again if Pep does walk. We need to give ourselves a chance in 23/24 season by getting the next manager appointment right and recruitment decisions right too.
I don't think theres a better manager available that, if given a lot of money, can produce the consistent high levels that Pep can. He knows what we wants. He knows it won't be cheap but when he gets what he wants, he can produce a higher level of football than any other manager imo.
Having said that Klopp has done an equally impressive job with Liverpool when you look at the difference in spending.
Having said that Klopp has done an equally impressive job with Liverpool when you look at the difference in spending.
I would really like to see Pep try his hand in Italy. He's done it at all and I'm not sure which project would excite him the most.
Perhaps trying to make Barca great again.
PSG would probably be City 2.0 for him.
I don't think he'd go back to Bayern.
Or there's international football which is semi-retirement
Perhaps trying to make Barca great again.
PSG would probably be City 2.0 for him.
I don't think he'd go back to Bayern.
Or there's international football which is semi-retirement
Are you calling the EPL second-rate or farmers league then?
Thinking that Klopp is better than Pep isn't absurd. However, the notion that Klopp is somehow miles ahead is absolute nonsense.
I personally would pick Klopp as well, but it is a matter of preference. A lot of teams have had enormous amounts of money, and Pep is no different. The difference is that Pep has created teams so dominant that they establish a gap between themselves and other elite teams. Being able to establish a chasm so large amongst other elite contemporaries, in any profession, is truly a reflection of greatness.
I think I read somewhere that Pep fancied managing a national team and leading them to a world cup after this.
Pretty sure it said he had plans of managing Brazil someday.
Might be totally fake though.
And why would Bayern go anywhere near the man that took them from Europe's undisputed trone and in no time made them a sparring partner for Spanish opposition?
His win percentage in the KO stage for Bayern is the worst any manager has had in Bayern's recent history. He established the record 5-0 loss to Ancelotti's Madrid, the worst Bayern has ever endured in a 2 legs european tie? That came only 12 months after Bayern's dismantling of Messi's 100 points Barça (7-0).
During his 3 years, Bayern lost a total of 5 CL KO stage games. Preventing them from reaching any final. The Bayern that has been to 3 finals in the previous 4 years.
Since he has left them until now, they've only lost 3 CL KO games.
Player for player, United have equally good if not better squad than City. They are just superbly well drilled, cohesive unit. And it is all down to world class coaching.
It probably is now, that is debatable. But none of those players were considered miles better than their rivals. Stones was another "overrated" english player. Who heard of Fernandinho before? Grealish had a brilliant season or two for an average PL team and Jesus? I can probably agree to Gündogan but he wasn't any more or less valued than Mkhitaryan or Kagawa when he arrived. The prices are high but a big reason for that is that everyone knows they're rich and you add in the PL tax and you get ridiculous prices. The fact is City have not made a single head turner super star signing à la Real, PSG or us. The closest they came to buying a ready made world class player is maybe KDB and even that is debatable at the time of his signing. Add to that how many times they missed out on targets to direct rivals like Van Persie, Fred, Sanchez, Maguire, Jorginho and Ronaldo because they wouldn't pay the asking price. If you consider all these factors, in what world do they have a clear financial advantage over us or Chelsea in the PL?
Who are these squad players who are miles better? Here is an estimation of their second team. Steffen, ?, Stones, Aké, Zinchenko, Fernandinho, Palmer, ?, Grealish, Sterling and Jesus.
Who out of these is miles better exactly than the players found at United, Liverpool or Chelsea? Even Liverpool who have the cheapest squad out of the 4 have the likes of Keïta, Chamberlain, Milner, Konaté, Gomez and Jota or Firmino as second string. That's at least as good as City's.
Arguments against anyone from Barcelona, is always they are good because they are surrounded by XYZ. 
whether it is Pep, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Dani Alves and so on
whether it is Pep, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Dani Alves and so on