'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
So we've gone from him inheriting/needing world-class players in every post to him inheriting 5-6 top players (without naming them) and "some good ones"? Alright then...
Do we really need to go through the squad every time?

Kompany, Aguero, de Bruyne, Yaya Toure, David Silva, Fernandinho, Sterling, Sane, Mahrez, Sterling, Ederson, Gabriel Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Laporte, Rodri...all world class, all would play for any other team in the league. All inherited or bought at great expense.

I can then make a list of all the millions spent trying to improve things and adding a bench full of players that cost over 50 million each?

The problem there is that you have to admit that they were expensive mistakes (all of them) or that Pep couldn’t improve them.

This is daft.

Kompany, Clichy, Gundogan, Sterling, Navas, Aguero, Kolarov, Delph, de Bruyne, David Silva, Sane, Stones, Gabriel Jesus, Fernandinho, Yaya Toure, Otamendi, ALL played in that season.

Most would play for any team in the country and all would have played for 80% of the teams in the league.

I think this discussion has reached its natural conclusion. I look at that and see an excellent squad of young, exciting talent mixed with world class experience, and you feel sorry for Pep.
 

Mark_Barca

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Messages
1,842
Supports
Barcelona
So we've gone from him inheriting/needing world-class players in every post to him inheriting 5-6 top players (without naming them) and "some good ones"? Alright then...
If you look at my debates with a few in here you will see the "goalposts" change regularly when the original points have been proven to be not accurate. One person actually claimed Mata was finished more than Zabaleta in 2016..

The above post is a prime example, its went from the squad at the end of 15/16 to adding players Pep signed. At least 5 in that list are 100% not world class. Whilst Delph, Navas, Clichy, Kolarov and Otamendi are being massively overhyped. If those 5 get in any side so do the likes of Smalling, Evans, Herrera, Hernandez etc..
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
If you look at my debates with a few in here you will see the "goalposts" change regularly when the original points have been proven to be not accurate. One person actually claimed Mata was finished more than Zabaleta in 2016..

The above post is a prime example, its went from the squad at the end of 15/16 to adding players Pep signed. At least 5 in that list are 100% not world class. Whilst Delph, Navas, Clichy, Kolarov and Otamendi are being massively overhyped. If those 5 get in any side so do the likes of Smalling, Evans, Herrera, Hernandez etc..
Haha, what does it matter if he signed them or not?? My point is that he has advantages over every other team, which he did.

Aguero, Silva, KdB, Toure, Kompany, Fernandinho, all world class players. No need to list the other very good players that were not quite at that level. (No moving goalposts as you say, even though access to very good - excellent footballers obviously plays a role)

Sane, Sterling, Mahrez, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Rodri, Ederson, Walker, Laporte... all world class players.

Add to that the expensive lads that did not work out and you are on a hiding to nothing I’m afraid. (He very obviously wanted another world class CB and Fb, or he wouldn’t have tried so many times to spend 50 million on one)

No goalposts moved. We disagree about the quality of player, but no one can disagree about his spending and what he was trying to achieve with it....a squad full of world class players :)

No CL, 50% title win rate, 75% league cup success
 
Last edited:

JDoe

Full Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
355
Supports
Bayern
So we've gone from him inheriting/needing world-class players in every post to him inheriting 5-6 top players (without naming them) and "some good ones"? Alright then...
Which attacking midfielders would you have taken above Silva bar Modric at that time? KdB? Which nr 9 ahead of Agüero bar prime Suarez? Which central defense would Kompany clearly have been benched? Fernandinho would've also been a starter in most top teams. And that is without counting in all the record transfers. You tell me.
 

Mark_Barca

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Messages
1,842
Supports
Barcelona
Sane, Sterling, Mahrez, Jesus, Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Rodri, Ederson, Walker, Laporte... all world class players.
Your definition of WC is much different to me. Those 6 in bold are very good players but a level below WC. Walker is never world class imo.

Each to their own. :)
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
Your definition of WC is much different to me. Those 6 in bold are very good players but a level below WC. Walker is never world class imo.

Each to their own. :)
I guess that’s where we differ then mate. If you buy a player for 50 million though, he really should be, and that’s my point. We see it differently though, but we can leave it there with no hard feelings!
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
4,163
Are you saying Gareth Barry was better than Herrera?

Valencia weaker than Micah Richards?
Gareth Barry was a better player than Herrera.

Richards haven’t been a regular at City for 8 years, and before that he was in and out of the team for two years. Both Richards and Valencia were poor fullbacks.
 

Mark_Barca

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Messages
1,842
Supports
Barcelona
I guess that’s where we differ then mate. If you buy a player for 50 million though, he really should be, and that’s my point. We see it differently though, but we can leave it there with no hard feelings!
Defo mate.

What I will say is the market has went mental over the last few years. £50m is like signing a 20m player especially in England. Iwobi at £35m says it all about the current market.

Still astounded at fees for Dembele and Coutinho. Robbed.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
I guess that’s where we differ then mate. If you buy a player for 50 million though, he really should be, and that’s my point. We see it differently though, but we can leave it there with no hard feelings!
If that's your point then it's a bad one because while the amount of money in football has increased considerably, the amount of world class players hasn't which means that many if not most of the players transferred for fees around 50m aren't world class, world class players aren't even sold that often nowadays and it's not for 50m.
 

PepG

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
626
Supports
Ajax
Klopp would fail miserably if he is a head coach of Barcelona or Real Madrid. Guardiola will got relegated if he is a coach of Mainz..but guess what..so did Klopp :smirk:
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
853
Klopp would fail miserably if he is a head coach of Barcelona or Real Madrid. Guardiola will got relegated if he is a coach of Mainz..but guess what..so did Klopp :smirk:
How exactly do you fail miserably at Barcelona or Madrid? Current day, I don’t even know who the current Barcelona manager is and they’re still top two
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
How exactly do you fail miserably at Barcelona or Madrid? Current day, I don’t even know who the current Barcelona manager is and they’re still top two
It's generally a combination of playing poor football, not winning a cup or the league.
 

footballistic orgasm

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
88
Supports
No team in particular
Which attacking midfielders would you have taken above Silva bar Modric at that time? KdB? Which nr 9 ahead of Agüero bar prime Suarez? Which central defense would Kompany clearly have been benched? Fernandinho would've also been a starter in most top teams. And that is without counting in all the record transfers. You tell me.
Silva was a WF playmaker before Pep put him in the midfield. Basically he had the same role as Hazard, Neymar, Messi and they were all better. Silva wasn't an automatic starter in the national team either.
Higuain was outscoring Aguero and benching him in the national team too. Other top strikers back then include Lewandowski. The problem with Aguero is that he's also always been injury prone too and he's never finished top scorer of the PL (correct me if I'm wrong though).
Talking about Injury prone players, seems like a lot of people who keep talking about Kompany have really forgotten how injury prone he was and how he wasn't an integral part of Pep's team.
Fernandinho has always been a very good player but he has never been world-class.

What are the record transfers? Though they bought a lot of players, they never spent more than 60million on a player if i'm not mistaken...
 

Cheech Wizard

Liverpool fan
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
4,953
Location
Lé Fylde Coast
Supports
Liverpool
Anyway he's going to win the CL* for them now with this changed one legged format nonsense isn't he? Can't see Real overturning the tie without Ramos, Bayern are the only team that look capable of testing/stopping them.
 

padr81

Full Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
6,741
Supports
Man City
Anyway he's going to win the CL* for them now with this changed one legged format nonsense isn't he? Can't see Real overturning the tie without Ramos, Bayern are the only team that look capable of testing/stopping them.
We are capable of beating or losing to any team in the competition, the level of the opposition doesn't matter if we decide to shoot ourselves in the foot with a comedy show.
 

njred

HALA MADRID!
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Messages
5,220
Supports
Liverpool
Klopp would fail miserably if he is a head coach of Barcelona or Real Madrid. Guardiola will got relegated if he is a coach of Mainz..but guess what..so did Klopp :smirk:
Wha wha what??? Explain, or maybe not.
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
If that's your point then it's a bad one because while the amount of money in football has increased considerably, the amount of world class players hasn't which means that many if not most of the players transferred for fees around 50m aren't world class, world class players aren't even sold that often nowadays and it's not for 50m.
This is talking about the time of his arrival when they were regularly breaking records for players in said position.

It’s a very relevant point for that time when the likes of Walker, Stones and Mangala were bought. You can’t and shouldn’t break transfer records for players if you don’t think they can be, or are close to, world class. There is a natural inflation but City’s spending greatly contributed to that, it wasn’t just a consequence for them.

But again, it’s a matter of opinion. I think overspending on players that aren’t up to it is as black a mark as anything else.

That wasn’t my main point anyway, which was that he had massive advantages over other teams, but some see it differently and that’s fine.

Football is all about opinions.
 

JDoe

Full Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
355
Supports
Bayern
Silva was a WF playmaker before Pep put him in the midfield. Basically he had the same role as Hazard, Neymar, Messi and they were all better. Silva wasn't an automatic starter in the national team either.
Higuain was outscoring Aguero and benching him in the national team too. Other top strikers back then include Lewandowski. The problem with Aguero is that he's also always been injury prone too and he's never finished top scorer of the PL (correct me if I'm wrong though).
Talking about Injury prone players, seems like a lot of people who keep talking about Kompany have really forgotten how injury prone he was and how he wasn't an integral part of Pep's team.
Fernandinho has always been a very good player but he has never been world-class.

What are the record transfers? Though they bought a lot of players, they never spent more than 60million on a player if i'm not mistaken...
Silva was used as attacking midfielder coming from the wings, not like an actual striker like Neymar. You basically listed Hazard and Messi (come on...) as being better than Silva, and that'd have made him not world-class despite being a top 5 player in his position? You listed two strikers in Higuain and Lewa (who I - as a regular stadium visiting Bayern fan myself - would have had absolutely no qualms with to trade against Agüero btw) as arguably better, and that would have made Agüero not world-class? I struggle to name a team bar Barcelona in which Fernandinho wouldn't have been a starter either tbh, same for Kompany, you tell me. Unless your definition for world-class is literally top 1 in the world, I do not see how one cannot class those crop of players as NOT being world-class.

The record transfers were Walker, Mendy, Stones (who were the most expensive defenders at that time), KdB and Sané (who were the most and second most expensive BL transfers at that time). People tend to forget that the majority of Pep's buys were BEFORE the market went crazy. KdB would've easily been around Sancho/Dembélé/Havertz price levels if he were to be available today for instance.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
This is talking about the time of his arrival when they were regularly breaking records for players in said position.

It’s a very relevant point for that time when the likes of Walker, Stones and Mangala were bought. You can’t and shouldn’t break transfer records for players if you don’t think they can be, or are close to, world class. There is a natural inflation but City’s spending greatly contributed to that, it wasn’t just a consequence for them.

But again, it’s a matter of opinion. I think overspending on players that aren’t up to it is as black a mark as anything else.

That wasn’t my main point anyway, which was that he had massive advantages over other teams, but some see it differently and that’s fine.

Football is all about opinions.
None of the players you mentioned were world class or have ever been world class, it makes your opinion even stranger. And of course it's a black mark but that doesn't support your point about their team being full of world class players, they had a team full of expensive duds and past it players like Clichy, Yaya Touré, Sagna, Demichelis or Zabaleta with a handful of very good players and maybe three world class players in Kompany, Aguero and De Bruyne.
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
None of the players you mentioned were world class or have ever been world class, it makes your opinion even stranger. And of course it's a black mark but that doesn't support your point about their team being full of world class players, they had a team full of expensive duds and past it players like Clichy, Yaya Touré, Sagna, Demichelis or Zabaleta with a handful of very good players and maybe three world class players in Kompany, Aguero and De Bruyne.
We have different definitions of world class. He had more than enough in his first season to do well. For me, they are all top, top players and his bench over the years has been ridiculous, nevermind his first team. The very reason they win the Carabao every year is because of their incredible squad depth.

My argument was never that they had a squad full of world class players when he arrived. It’s that they were in a better position than Man Utd, which they were in my opinion. Much better. He then spent a fortune on top of that to produce the result that he did.

Fair enough, fantastic football at an eye-watering cost. He is a great coach. By his second season, he had a team full of world class players. If you don’t class, at least, Sane, Silva and Sterling as world class I don’t know what to tell you.

We can just agree to disagree, because it all comes back to the same point about how we rate the players etc...
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
We have different definitions of world class. He had more than enough in his first season to do well. For me, they are all top, top players and his bench over the years has been ridiculous, nevermind his first team. The very reason they win the Carabao every year is because of their incredible squad depth.

My argument was never that they had a squad full of world class players when he arrived. It’s that they were in a better position than Man Utd, which they were in my opinion. Much better. He then spent a fortune on top of that to produce the result that he did.

Fair enough, fantastic football at an eye-watering cost. He is a great coach. By his second season, he had a team full of world class players. If you don’t class, at least, Sane, Silva and Sterling as world class I don’t know what to tell you.

We can just agree to disagree, because it all comes back to the same point about how we rate the players etc...
But you are clearly wrong, no one has ever considered that the likes of Mangala and Stones were top players, let alone world class and Walker joined them in 2017. Before 2016 Sterling was the butt of many jokes, Kompany was the only top level defender in their squad and he pretty much missed the entirety of the season due to injuries, their midfield was very good, their attack was a mixed bag with Sterling trying to find his game, Aguero being unfairly questioned, Navas playing a lot and Leroy Sané as the good surprise.

At the start of 2016 City were comparable to United today.
 

Zambara

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
51
City's defence being a soft spot has long been obvious.

What shocks me is how far their general quality of play has fallen, despite the odd game where they half turn it on.

It's almost the same as post-Xavi/Iniesta Barcelona, except without any major change in personal with the exception of the loss of Kompany.

And unlike Barca, there's no Messi to pick up the pieces.
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,161
But you are clearly wrong, no one has ever considered that the likes of Mangala and Stones were top players, let alone world class and Walker joined them in 2017. Before 2016 Sterling was the butt of many jokes, Kompany was the only top level defender in their squad and he pretty much missed the entirety of the season due to injuries, their midfield was very good, their attack was a mixed bag with Sterling trying to find his game, Aguero being unfairly questioned, Navas playing a lot and Leroy Sané as the good surprise.

At the start of 2016 City were comparable to United today.
There is a massive amount of exaggeration there. That’s ok though, you’re right. He worked miracles with the funds available to him and what he has achieved is spectacular given his meager backing. Is that better?

If you spent that much money on United today, If you took United today and spent the money he has, I would be disappointed if you didn’t win the league.

No one said Mangala and Stones were top class but it’s money he spent. It’s opportunities he wasted. Normally when a manager gets that sort of call wrong, he is punished. Pep wasn’t, he was able to try again, and again.

He had world class players available to him, he bought more of them and continued to buy more of them until it clicked. When the buy didn’t work, no issue, buy someone else. Like I said, KdB, Aguero, Kompany, Silva, Sterling, Toure, Sane, Mahrez, Ederson, Laporte, Fernandinho...all world class in my opinion. And the money spent outside of them is insane.

His bench for their last PL game was absurd and he will spend a fortune again this summer because he went and bought a Rodri when he needed another type of midfielder. No problem. Try again.

If calling me “wrong” instead of saying you just don’t agree makes you happier, that’s no problem.

I won’t be replying again though to rehash the same old arguments based on opinion. I respect yours is different, so we will leave it there.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
168
Hes a fantastic manager there's no doubt. But how many trophies would he have won had he joined Arsenal or Spurs though under same financial conditions they have been under? He'd maybe have won a league or fa cup at best and maybe nothing at all.
Any Football Manager with any ambitions to have a decent career would be best advised to avoid Arsenal & Spurs, simply because they will end up going nowhere with either club, as Arteta is finding out with the former.

They were on for the quadruple at Christmas before the Pep announcement knocked them off course.
We all knew perfectly well that City where never going to win a Quadruple with the squad they had in 2015-2016, especially when they have a bad habit failing to build up their squads after winning the League.

People saying he’s not a success unless he wins the champions league should remember we only won two of them with Fergie, it’s not an easy competition to win.
To be fair to Fergie, he would have won more CL's had the Board at United given him more funds to build upon both the Treble era Squad (after winning it in 1999) & the Ronaldo-Rooney era Squad (after winning it in 2008).

Considering the resources at his disposal, never looking anywhere near winning a champions league since he walked away from arguably the best club team anyone of us have ever seen has to be considered an underachievement.
Manchester City might have the resources to build a side that can Dominate both Domestically and in Europe; but as I explained in previous posts (#1081 & #1085), they have yet to use it to build such a side under Guardiola (otherwise they would have 2 World-Class options in each position) (1). So one should not really be surprised that Manchester City have yet to win a CL under Pep.

(1) Which as Real Madrid showed back in 2017-2018, is the minimum requirement to secure a European Double.

I feel like saying the league cup doesn’t matter is something the scousers used to say when they weren’t winning anything.
The ironic thing is that the "Boot Room" Generation actually took the League Cup seriously back in the 1980s. Hence why they have won it more than any other club.

Take your City glasses off mate. Peps best players now were there when he took over -KDB,Aguero,Sterling. Also Silva only began to decline last season. He then broke premiership spending records on top of that.
I remember perfectly well that Sterling was heavily criticised for his performances at Euro 2016, in fact there many calls to have him dropped from the England Squad altogether. So if you claimed back in 2016 that within 3 years Sterling would form a key part of both the Man City Squad and the England Squad, you would have been laughted out of the room. As would anyone what would openly suggest that Joe Hart should still start for England in this age & age.

Likewise few if anybody back in 2016 thought that KDB would become the best CM in the Premier League within 2 years. So I stand by my claim that only Kompany, Fernandinho, D.Silva & Aguero where good enough (in 2016) to play for a Title Winning Squad.

Yes, Pep has won trophies, but if you can't accept the massive advantage he has had you need to take your blinkers off. And this is before getting into the financial irregularities of Manchester City and How much they are really spending.
As I explained in previous posts (#1081 & #1085); Manchester City have never used that financial advatage to build a squad that could Dominate both Domestically & in Europe at any point that Guardiola has managed City. Had they used that financial advantage to do exactly that; they would have also signed Alaba, Kimmich, VVD, Neymar & Mbappe back in 2017 (Alongside Ederson, Mendy, Walker, Danilo, Laporte & B.Silva, with Delph & Otamendi also leaving the club at the same time) as well as Allison, Kante & Erriksen back in 2018 (Alongside Mahrez, with Bravo joining Toure in leaving the club).

In other words; had they got those 8 additional players into the club; they would have likely won the Champions League alongside their Premier League titles in both 2017-2018 & 2018-2019, as well as likely prevent Liverpool from winning the League this season. The fact they didn't goes a long way to explain why they only Dominated Domestically.

They are so close to Joses first Chelsea stint thats its almost a carbon copy
Bit Harsh to compare Klopp's Liverpool this season to Chelsea in the 2004-2005 season, especially when they did just as well as Liverpool did in the Premier League, while doing far better in the Cups (and actually winning one of them) and far better in the CL as well.

And for all the stick Jose got about spending he had to buy a quality cm and striker in Pogba and Lukaku for 160m or so while Pep walked into having Aguero and De Bruyne.
To be fair, I was in 100% agreement with Mourinho at the time when it came to levels of transfer spending at United. My issue with him however was trusting him (in terms of which players he wanted) to get the right players that would actually improve the squad, which I had serious question marks over (1).

(1) Ranging from his desire to bring Ivan Perisic and/or Willian to his point blank refusal to drop Feallini, Smalling, Jones & Rojo from the team.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
2,842
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
Manchester City might have the resources to build a side that can Dominate both Domestically and in Europe; but as I explained in previous posts (#1081 & #1085), they have yet to use it to build such a side under Guardiola (otherwise they would have 2 World-Class options in each position) (1). So one should not really be surprised that Manchester City have yet to win a CL under Pep.

(1) Which as Real Madrid showed back in 2017-2018, is the minimum requirement to secure a European Double.
Dude, you've claimed that's what's needed.

That's your opinion.

Its not a fact and I've never heard anyone say City needed 8 more World Class players to even be in contention for winning a CL so to say we shouldn't be surprised is a bit of a stretch.

Squad depth isn't the reason they're getting knocked out of the CL.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
There is a massive amount of exaggeration there. That’s ok though, you’re right. He worked miracles with the funds available to him and what he has achieved is spectacular given his meager backing. Is that better?

If you spent that much money on United today, If you took United today and spent the money he has, I would be disappointed if you didn’t win the league.

No one said Mangala and Stones were top class but it’s money he spent. It’s opportunities he wasted. Normally when a manager gets that sort of call wrong, he is punished. Pep wasn’t, he was able to try again, and again.

He had world class players available to him, he bought more of them and continued to buy more of them until it clicked. When the buy didn’t work, no issue, buy someone else. Like I said, KdB, Aguero, Kompany, Silva, Sterling, Toure, Sane, Mahrez, Ederson, Laporte, Fernandinho...all world class in my opinion. And the money spent outside of them is insane.

His bench for their last PL game was absurd and he will spend a fortune again this summer because he went and bought a Rodri when he needed another type of midfielder. No problem. Try again.

If calling me “wrong” instead of saying you just don’t agree makes you happier, that’s no problem.

I won’t be replying again though to rehash the same old arguments based on opinion. I respect yours is different, so we will leave it there.
No it's not I didn't suggest that he worked miracles and that's the issue with your take, you are on a sort of mission to prove that he isn't a "genius" and distort reality and your own narrative after every post. Take this one, I responded to your claim about his first season and you just made a list of players where somehow your previous world class examples in Stones, Mangala and Walker disappeared. You were criticizing his first season where Kompany didn't play due to injuries, Mahrez, Ederson and Laporte weren't at City, Sterling and Sané weren't world class players and Touré was already past it. Even Silva turned defintively into one in his new role but wasn't one before that, or at least it was arguable, he was a very good player though. So yeah, the issue is that you made inaccurate claims and then moved the goalposts.

If you just wanted to say that maybe with more pragmatism City could have done better in 2016/2017 then that's different and that's maybe true but they didn't had a team full of world class players and they weren't guaranteed to do better with a different approach.
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
18,229
Everybody thought City were amazing before Pep joined and yes, there were seriois concerns about them doing the quadruple
Lets not rewrite history. Their closest title challengers at Christmas were Leicester and Spurs and they just won the league cup. The concensus was that the double was at least in the bag
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
Everybody thought City were amazing before Pep joined and yes, there were seriois concerns about them doing the quadruple
Lets not rewrite history. Their closest title challengers at Christmas were Leicester and Spurs and they just won the league cup. The concensus was that the double was at least in the bag
City weren't amazing which is why they didn't win the league and Leicester did, on December 21st Arsenal were the closest team to Leicester with City third at 4 points from Arsenal and 6 points from Leicester. City closed the gap to 3 points in January but went back to their previous form in February. At the beginning of the season Chelsea were the favorites but between a bad start of the season and a good start for City opinions changed.

So in 2015/2016 City weren't the favorites in August, it was Chelsea. They failed to win the league and Leicester did, they also spent most of the season third or below. Their players in particular in defense were aging and it showed in 2016/2017. But maybe I'm rewriting history.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
168
Dude, you've claimed that's what's needed. That's your opinion. Its not a fact
It's a pretty well known fact that Footballers (and human beings in general) are more likely to fight for their job/position if their feel that there is a genuine threat that they might lose said job/position.

I've never heard anyone say City needed 8 more World Class players to even be in contention for winning a CL so to say we shouldn't be surprised is a bit of a stretch.
The main reason why Real Madrid & Barcelona all but monopolised the Champions League during the 2010s was because they could boast Starting XI's that included 11 World Class players, a dupoly they only lost once that was no longer possible for either club. Heck even the Liverpool side that won the Champions League last season could boast at least 9 World Class players within its Starting XI (1). That more than anything proves that you do actually need more than 8 World Class players to win a Champions League.

Likewise I wasn't even talking about how many World Class players Manchester City needed to win a Champions League in the first place, I was talking about how many World Class players you need to win both the Premier League & the Champions League (and at least one of the Domestic Cups) within a single season. Which as the 2017-2018 Real Madrid side proved, does indeed require 2 World Class XI's.

(1) Allison, Robertson, TAA, VVD, Fabinio, Wijnaldum, Mane, Salah & Firmino.

Squad depth isn't the reason they're getting knocked out of the CL.
You honestly think that Manchester City would still get knocked out of the Champions League (at the QF Stage) by Liverpool in 2018 & Tottenham Hotspur in 2019 if they boasted a Back 5 of Ederson, Alaba, Laporte, VVD & Kimmich (with Allison, Mendy, Kompany, Stones & Walker fighting for their places)? Somehow, I can't see that still happening....
 

JDoe

Full Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
355
Supports
Bayern
It's insane how one can inherit a squad containing 6 world class players while having additionally spent 700m pounds on it, with half of it on defenders AND a large part of that sum BEFORE the market went absolutely crazy, and still be excused by some that he could not have possibly won the CL and league with that. Seriously blows my mind how people are able to convince themselves in believing this, despite the fact that there is another team in the league with far lesser individuals and financial possibilities that was much closer to win both the league and CL in the same timespan. They spent more on their defenders than Pool did on their whole squad during that time FFS, and that is GROSS spend only without even considering that City never had to sell any of their star players.

I don't think that there are many classifying his stint at City to be a complete failure, winning the league last year against Pool was actually quite a feat, but it's a far cry from a huge success no matter how you look at it. Don't think that a lot of managers might have gotten City to clinch the title last year like Pep did, but pretty sure quite a few could have bettered what he did in the CL and/or in his first season in the league for instance, not only points wise.
 

Kush

Full Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
2,717
What is with this place and going back to old arguments every time he loses few games? He's a great manager, period. Does he spend a metric feck ton compared to others? Sure, but so did Mourinho and nobody questions his first Chelsea side as one of the better sides this league has ever seen. They do need to replace some of the ageing guard, Fernandinho doesn't cut it as a CB, Silva is a goner after this year and Aguero isn't getting any younger. These are the 'challenges' for him but I'm sure Abu Dhabi will give him £200m to fix it and they'll carry on winning.

Sooner him and Klopp feck off, the better for us.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
2,842
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
It's a pretty well known fact that Footballers (and human beings in general) are more likely to fight for their job/position if their feel that there is a genuine threat that they might lose said job/position.
While that statement may be true, I don't see how it negates what I said about your opinion.


The main reason why Real Madrid & Barcelona all but monopolised the Champions League during the 2010s was because they could boast Starting XI's that included 11 World Class players, a dupoly they only lost once that was no longer possible for either club. Heck even the Liverpool side that won the Champions League last season could boast at least 9 World Class players within its Starting XI (1). That more than anything proves that you do actually need more than 8 World Class players to win a Champions League.

Likewise I wasn't even talking about how many World Class players Manchester City needed to win a Champions League in the first place, I was talking about how many World Class players you need to win both the Premier League & the Champions League (and at least one of the Domestic Cups) within a single season. Which as the 2017-2018 Real Madrid side proved, does indeed require 2 World Class XI's.

(1) Allison, Robertson, TAA, VVD, Fabinio, Wijnaldum, Mane, Salah & Firmino.
You replied to me so I'm not sure why you started off by referring to your post, if you were making a different point to mine.

I was talking about Pep not winning the CL since he left Barca not whatever narrow view you hold which means Pep hasn't underperformed in Europe.

Your point about Liverpool having 9 WC players makes little sense in the context of comparing to City's squad and even I think you're stretching it a bit here. Fabinio/Wijnaldum & Firmino? World Class?

You honestly think that Manchester City would still get knocked out of the Champions League (at the QF Stage) by Liverpool in 2018 & Tottenham Hotspur in 2019 if they boasted a Back 5 of Ederson, Alaba, Laporte, VVD & Kimmich (with Allison, Mendy, Kompany, Stones & Walker fighting for their places)? Somehow, I can't see that still happening....
This is completely irrelevant. The side put out by Pep under-performed and shipped an uncharacteristic number of goals. They got beaten by Spurs for god's sake. You don't need two world class XI's to beat Spurs over two legs.
Were they fatigued? Was the squad waffer-thin with injuries?
 
Last edited:

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
168
While that statement may be true, I don't see how it negates what I said about your opinion.
You implied that teams don't need 2 World Class Players in every position win both the Premier League & the Champions League in a single season, what I was trying to do with that point was basically explain why you do actually need proper squad competition to achieve such a goal.

I was talking about Pep not winning the CL since he left Barca not whatever narrow view you hold which means Pep hasn't underperformed in Europe.
I wasn't talking about the fact that Guardiola has indeed underperformed in Europe, I was talking about why he has underformed in Europe with Manchester City. Which is that while Manchester City have a squad that is good enough to Dominate the Domestic Club Game, its not good enough to dominate both the Domestic Club Club Game & the Champions League at the same time.

Your point about Liverpool having 9 WC players makes little sense in the context of comparing to City's squad and even I think you're stretching it a bit here. Fabinio/Wijnaldum & Firmino? World Class?
Fabinio is one of the best DM's in world football, is a player I long advocated United should have signed (before he joined Liverpool) and has been their best midfielder. So of course he is World Class. Likewise the peformances that Wijnaldum & Firmino have done over the last few seasons justify such a status towards them as well.

This is completely irrelevant. The side put out by Pep under-performed and shipped an uncharacteristic number of goals. They got beaten by Spurs for god's sake. You don't need two world class XI's to beat Spurs over two legs.
True, but you do need to have a World-Class Back 5 (and another Top-Class Back 5 in reserve that is making sure they fight for their places on the team) to win the Premier League & Champions League in a single season, so that you can beat teams like Spurs in the Champions League Knockout Rounds while also enduring a season long fight for the Premier League against a side that would only lose once that season.

Were they fatigued? Was the squad waffer-thin with injuries?
Judging by their performances against Liverpool (in the 2018 QF fixtures), City did indeed play as if they where clearly fatigued. Which explains why they got outplayed by a Midfield featuring Oxlade-Chamberlain & Henderson (when they where still transitioning from being merely bang average) and scored only 1 goal against a guy who represents the unacceptable face of Defending (Lovern) and a Goalkeeper (Karuis) who was only slightly better than the Goalkeeper he replaced (Mignolet), who was so bad that he even made Dwight Gayle look like a top class striker.
 

Withnail

Full Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
2,842
Location
The Arena of the Unwell
You implied that teams don't need 2 World Class Players in every position win both the Premier League & the Champions League in a single season, what I was trying to do with that point was basically explain why you do actually need proper squad competition to achieve such a goal.



I wasn't talking about the fact that Guardiola has indeed underperformed in Europe, I was talking about why he has underformed in Europe with Manchester City. Which is that while Manchester City have a squad that is good enough to Dominate the Domestic Club Game, its not good enough to dominate both the Domestic Club Club Game & the Champions League at the same time.



Fabinio is one of the best DM's in world football, is a player I long advocated United should have signed (before he joined Liverpool) and has been their best midfielder. So of course he is World Class. Likewise the peformances that Wijnaldum & Firmino have done over the last few seasons justify such a status towards them as well.



True, but you do need to have a World-Class Back 5 (and another Top-Class Back 5 in reserve that is making sure they fight for their places on the team) to win the Premier League & Champions League in a single season, so that you can beat teams like Spurs in the Champions League Knockout Rounds while also enduring a season long fight for the Premier League against a side that would only lose once that season.



Judging by their performances against Liverpool (in the 2018 QF fixtures), City did indeed play as if they where clearly fatigued. Which explains why they got outplayed by a Midfield featuring Oxlade-Chamberlain & Henderson (when they where still transitioning from being merely bang average) and scored only 1 goal against a guy who represents the unacceptable face of Defending (Lovern) and a Goalkeeper (Karuis) who was only slightly better than the Goalkeeper he replaced (Mignolet), who was so bad that he even made Dwight Gayle look like a top class striker.
It sounds like you're making up excuses.

Firstly he needs a bigger squad to be judged in Europe, then when he loses to teams with less resources and less squad depth they were fatigued.

After losing to Liverpool and Spurs they went on to win the league with 98 and 100pts. Sorry but I cannot believe that it was fatigue and it was a tongue in cheek remark on my part which I didn't think you'd try to back up.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
It sounds like you're making up excuses.

Firstly he needs a bigger squad to be judged in Europe, then when he loses to teams with less resources and less squad depth they were fatigued.

After losing to Liverpool and Spurs they went on to win the league with 98 and 100pts. Sorry but I cannot believe that it was fatigue and it was a tongue in cheek remark on my part which I didn't think you'd try to back up.
In the league I would say that he did well at the exception of this season which is a failure. In the CL, I have the belief that Guardiola is a league manager and a mediocre cup manager, his management style seems to be 100% about THE system, a high floor and consistency. He is the opposite of Ancelotti or Emery when he was in Spain who are cup managers, on a two legged round they can make your life miserable but can't do find consistency over 38 games.

I would say that it's Guardiola's main shortcoming outside of being too ideological. An interesting example is SAF who explained in an interview that he has always believed in possession and his arguments are the same used by Guardiola and Cruyff the difference is that SAF adapted and changed over time in order to maintain success, that's why he is arguably the greatest manager of all time while others like Guardiola are only the best managers of their generation.

Did you already have your ideas in place regarding the way you wanted your future teams to play? Have these ideas changed over the years?

I always believed in possession of the ball, with every team I’ve had. Passing the ball, possession. That’s what we worked on when I was at East Stirling. All the time. They were limited players, to be honest, but they tried really hard. They were only part-time players; I’d only have them three nights a week. We played Tranmere in a preseason friendly. Ron Yeats was the manager. They beat us 2-0. Steve Coppell was their centre-forward at the time—just before he went to Manchester United. And Ron told me after the game, “I’ll give you a tip: You play far too much football.” And I said, “I’m quite happy if that’s a crime.” Playing too much football! But I’ve always believed in possession of the ball. I say to my players: Human nature tells you that when you have something in your possession, the other person wants it. So the patience runs out, they lose control. One of those 10 players is going to try and get that ball, so therefore, you’re playing against nine players. That was my theory, as a young manager. … I’ve changed a bit since then, of course.
Yet it's fair to say that SAF disappointed at the continental level, which isn't surprising a competition where you literally face the best players and teams in the world in a cup format will always be difficult to win. Only players like Messi and Ronaldo can give you certainties in that context because unlike other players they aren't really affected by form.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
168
It sounds like you're making up excuses.
I wouldn't quite say "making up" when I am basing my opnions on this matter on recent footballing history & the importance of squad competition.

Firstly he needs a bigger squad to be judged in Europe
Actually my ultimate point was if Guardiola wants to dominate Europe has he has done in the Premier League; he needs to get addtional world class players. Which is less "he should not be judged in Europe" (1) and more "This is why he has yet to win the Champions League and this what he needs to do to address it".

(1) Especially when I am making judgements on his record in the Champions League with City.

then when he loses to teams with less resources and less squad depth they were fatigued.
Teams that have ended up writing off other competitons to focus on the Champions League when they both faced City; hence why Liverpool effectively abandoned both Domestic Cups and have been effectively forced to decide between winning the Champions League & winning the Premier League for all of the last 3 seasons while Tottenham had all but abandoned the Premier League (other than when it comes to getting Top 4) & both Domestic Cups by the business end of the 2018-2019. So when they both faced a team that is fighting 2 difficult fronts with the resources of 1 (especially with a suspect defence), it not really that much of a surprise that they end up both beating Manchester City when you look at it.

This is not saying that it's perfectly acceptable for Manchester City to lose to Liverpool (in the CL) in 2018 & Tottenham (in the CL) in 2019, but rather an exposure of how both Guardiola & (especially) Begiristain have failed to build a good enough squad to Dominate both Domestically & in Europe, despite having the resources to do exactly that. Otherwise they would have been more than able to knock out both Liverpool & Tottenham out of the CL while at the same time winning Premier League's with 95-100 points & winning Domestic Cups for fun.

After losing to Liverpool and Spurs they went on to win the league with 98 and 100pts.
Not every team is as good as Liverpool (and on their day) & Spurs, one has to look at our current squad for example.

Sorry but I cannot believe that it was fatigue and it was a tongue in cheek remark on my part which I didn't think you'd try to back up.
Did you actually watch both those games back in 2018? Because I did and it was pretty clear that City where underperforming in both games, with fatigue being the biggest likely reason why that was the case. Although to be fair, playing Otamendi didn't exactly help their case.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
168
Yet it's fair to say that SAF disappointed at the continental level, which isn't surprising a competition where you literally face the best players and teams in the world in a cup format will always be difficult to win. Only players like Messi and Ronaldo can give you certainties in that context because unlike other players they aren't really affected by form.
Ferguson wasn't helped by the fact the Board at Manchester United (both under Edwards/ Kenyon & the Glazers/Gill) where far from willing to build upon both the Treble Era side & and the Ronaldo-Rooney Era side. Had they where more wiling to do so back in both in the Early 2000s & the Mid-2000s, we could have seen Fergie win a few more Champions League's while at United.

I do however agree with your points about Guardiola however.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
853
In the league I would say that he did well at the exception of this season which is a failure. In the CL, I have the belief that Guardiola is a league manager and a mediocre cup manager, his management style seems to be 100% about THE system, a high floor and consistency. He is the opposite of Ancelotti or Emery when he was in Spain who are cup managers, on a two legged round they can make your life miserable but can't do find consistency over 38 games.

I would say that it's Guardiola's main shortcoming outside of being too ideological. An interesting example is SAF who explained in an interview that he has always believed in possession and his arguments are the same used by Guardiola and Cruyff the difference is that SAF adapted and changed over time in order to maintain success, that's why he is arguably the greatest manager of all time while others like Guardiola are only the best managers of their generation.



Yet it's fair to say that SAF disappointed at the continental level, which isn't surprising a competition where you literally face the best players and teams in the world in a cup format will always be difficult to win. Only players like Messi and Ronaldo can give you certainties in that context because unlike other players they aren't really affected by form.
You can’t argue that Guardiola is A mediocre cup manager when he’s won every domestic cup in England, all in one season as well, and 2 Cls with only 3 managers in the history of the game who have won more.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
42,412
Location
France
You can’t argue that Guardiola is A mediocre cup manager when he’s won every domestic cup in England, all in one season as well, and 2 Cls with only 3 managers in the history of the game who have won more.
I can because it's relative and takes into account the fact that he managed Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Manchester City in his 11 season and only really came close to winning the CL, and won it, with arguably the best player in the history of the game while being routinely outcoached in the CL with Bayern and City. I think that it's difficult to argue that he is anything else than mediocre when it comes to cups because he invariably fail to compensate for tactical mismatches in a cup format, his teams are excellent over a season but won't adapt to a particular event within that season which is what cups generally impose.