'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

RedDevilzFox

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This thread is full of such absurdities. New member level is dropping fast.
Frankly, looking at some of your posts, we should question the older members too.
 

mshnsh

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Well you clearly do give a stuff which is why you're getting so worked up over a nothing comment.

I wasn't being serious. As I said all clubs are legitimate. However, and this isn't your doing, a club being propelled to highest due to middle Eastern riches is absolutely soulless. That's the context in which I said what I did because it's true. It's a scurge on this beautiful thing called sport. It's why City's success never impacts me like Liverpool and never could. Hollow. And if we ever get back on our perch, which I'm sure we will, I sure hope it's not due to some Saudi fecker being the reason. feck that. And I hope great managers create beautiful romantic footballing stories by avoiding clubs line that Wherher it's mine or yours.

And City aren't part of any pyramid. They snuck their way out of it through external help
All that you said is true. Unfortunately we also have billionaire owners. Some feckers from America who are totally useless.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Frankly, looking at some of your posts, we should question the older members too.
Don't get me started on yours.

I've been different in this thread for sure but it worth it for the greatest manager of all time Sir Alex. Hopefully he always gets such a backing on a Manchester United forum from United fans at least.
 

RedDevilzFox

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Why is Fergies achievements with Aberdeen not factored in to European performance? You could make a good argument it’s the most impressive European feat of both managers. You’re also assuming Pep is going to win more Champions Leagues, it’s a fair assumption granted but not a given so I don’t understand how Pep makes a better case
Because I am discussing UCL and not some 2nd or 3rd tier UEFA competition. As far as I am concerned, League and UCL are the only competitions that have meaning and context. Everything else is just meaningless cash grab from UEFA.

As for Pep, he is 50. That's 20 years less than 70. Assuming he manages until then, I can only speculate, I don't have a crystal ball. But based on his past performance, I think its a safe bet that he will win a few more UCLs by then.

The real question is if he will manage until he is 70 like Fergie did. Highly unlikely IMO. He doesn't seem the type that lives and breathes football. I think he will probably always follow football but doesn't seem to be totally consumed by it, he may have other things on his mind.
 

RedDevilzFox

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Don't get me started on yours.

I've been different in this thread for sure but it worth it for the greatest manager of all time Sir Alex. Hopefully he always gets such a backing on a Manchester United forum from United fans at least.
Worth it? WTF?
What are you some mindless sheep that has to follow in some kind of cult with no critical thinking of your own?
 

amolbhatia50k

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Because I am discussing UCL and not some 2nd or 3rd tier UEFA competition. As far as I am concerned, League and UCL are the only competitions that have meaning and context. Everything else is just meaningless cash grab from UEFA.

As for Pep, he is 50. That's 20 years less than 70. Assuming he manages until then, I am only speculate, I don't have a crystal ball. But based on his past performance, I think its a safe bet that he will win a few more UCLs by then.

The real question is if he will manage until he is 70 like Fergie did. Highly unlikely IMO. He doesn't seem the type that lives and breathes football. I think he will probably always follow football but doesn't seem to be totally consumed by it, he may have other things on his mind.
Pathetic :lol:

What a way to downplay a stunning achievement. Why do you actually have red devil in your username? Also we need a mod to answer for this promotion
 

amolbhatia50k

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Worth it? WTF?
What are you some mindless sheep that has to follow in some kind of cult with no critical thinking of your own?
If you learn to read, my posts are full critical evaluation. Probably went over your dense "ONLY CL FORECA" simplistic brain.
 

RedDevilzFox

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If you learn to read, my posts are full critical evaluation. Probably went over your dense "ONLY CL FORECA" simplistic brain.
Haha
" I've been different in this thread for sure but it worth it for the greatest manager of all time Sir Alex. Hopefully he always gets such a backing on a Manchester United forum from United fans at least. "

Yes that does sound like critical reasoning and evaluation.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Haha
" I've been different in this thread for sure but it worth it for the greatest manager of all time Sir Alex. Hopefully he always gets such a backing on a Manchester United forum from United fans at least. "

Yes that does sound like critical reasoning and evaluation.
Well, why can't a fan say that? Do fans not support their own and also make logical arguements? Or are you capable of only one? All my arguments in favour of SAF are factual and rational based. That he's the greatest ever football manager who managed my football is an absolute dream. And it goes without saying that the GOAT manager should receive support on his own clubs forum. You seem to issue with normal things? Or is preferring Pep the right way to do things because I'm a United to prove my opinion is real? Get a grip.
 

RedDevilzFox

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Well, why can't a fan say that? Do fans not support their own and also make logical arguements? Or are you capable of only one. All my arguments in favour of SAF are facial and rational based. That he's the greatest ever football manager who managed my football is an absolute dream. And it goes without saying that the GOAT manager should receive support on his own clubs forum. You seem to issue with normal things? Or is preferring Pep the right way to do things because I'm a United to prove my opinion is real? Get a grip.
Yes, your a fanboi indeed.
 

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Because I am discussing UCL and not some 2nd or 3rd tier UEFA competition. As far as I am concerned, League and UCL are the only competitions that have meaning and context. Everything else is just meaningless cash grab from UEFA.

As for Pep, he is 50. That's 20 years less than 70. Assuming he manages until then, I can only speculate, I don't have a crystal ball. But based on his past performance, I think its a safe bet that he will win a few more UCLs by then.

The real question is if he will manage until he is 70 like Fergie did. Highly unlikely IMO. He doesn't seem the type that lives and breathes football. I think he will probably always follow football but doesn't seem to be totally consumed by it, he may have other things on his mind.
Winning a European competition with Aberdeen is a fecking huge achievement. They beat a Real Madrid and Bayern Munich on the way. It could be argued that it was his biggest achievement. Joke of a post.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Winning a European competition with Aberdeen is a fecking huge achievement. How you can downplay this is a joke.
Nah, buddy. Sir only considered Champions League. He has high standards you see, unlike everyone else.
 

amolbhatia50k

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We're talking about Aberdeen here. They haven't come close to achieving anything like this since he left 30 plus years ago.
Of course we know that. He's just belittling due to an agenda. We have many such sorts here. It was an incredible accomplishment
 

gazbradley

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Because I am discussing UCL and not some 2nd or 3rd tier UEFA competition. As far as I am concerned, League and UCL are the only competitions that have meaning and context. Everything else is just meaningless cash grab from UEFA.

As for Pep, he is 50. That's 20 years less than 70. Assuming he manages until then, I am only speculate, I don't have a crystal ball. But based on his past performance, I think its a safe bet that he will win a few more UCLs by then.

The real question is if he will manage until he is 70 like Fergie did. Highly unlikely IMO. He doesn't seem the type that lives and breathes football. I think he will probably always follow football but doesn't seem to be totally consumed by it, he may have other things on his mind.
How is that fair though? That sounds like picking points that only suit your agenda, does that mean Fergies leagues wins with Aberdeen also don’t count because they were in Scotland or Peps with Bayern don’t count cos the Bundesliga is seen as less of a competition than La Liga or the Premier League. Achievements have to be given merit based on circumstances which is why I’m guessing a lot of people on this discussion find Sir Alex’s achievements with Utd more impressive than what Pep has ever achieved at any club.

Although I agree Pep will likely win more CL’s, this year will be his first final in 10 years I believe, by that average he might only make 2 more finals in the next 20 years so you can’t base his achievements higher on speculation or assumptions only on fact. I actually think both managers have underachieved in the CL given the squads they’ve been in charge of, strangely there’s also the caveat of Fergie being denied more wins by Peps Barca team ironically.

I don’t have an issue per se to anyone who thinks Pep is the best ever he’s clearly a fantastic coach and it’s literally impossible to prove who’s right and who’s wrong, but I’ve just never seen a convincing argument that would make me think it’s clearly Pep.
 

Mike Phelan's Former Tash

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What happens to Pep if he loses the final? Its why he's there right? Does he go again with city?

He'd definitely get slated on Blue moon, they turned when they lost to Chelsea last week.

If Chelsea win today, finish top 4 and beat City have they had a better season?
 

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Personally, SAFs record in CL is too underwhelming for me to be in the conversation for greatest manager of all time. He is quite possibly the greatest league manager of all time though. If we define a criteria for GOAT manager:

- You have to factor in league performances
- You have to factor in european performances
- You have to factor in longevity at the top
- You have to factor in tactical acumen
- You have to factor in innovation
- You have to factor in man management
- You have to factor in quality of football

SAF scores heavy points on 4 out of 7 clearly (1,3,6,7). I think Pep makes an even better case though.
So you are saying sir alex did not have tactical acumen? A manager with 13 PL titles can't win that many titles without tactical acumen.
 

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No there isn’t. Also football has changed a lot since 1986.
I'm afraid there is. His achievements have been accomplished by less than stellar managers at every club he's been at. 3 lads at Barca, Everybody at Bayern and forgotten managers at City.

If he were to take over a big, but not high spending club like Arsenal and win the league than nobody would question his ability.

I'll always think of him as a baldy money spending clown who dances up and down the sideline:) and who can't win a league without having the best players in said league.

What has football changing got to do with anything? Does that mean that achievements in 1986 aren't as good as now?
 

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Pep did better than all of those managers, both in performances and in titles won.
It is true that simply saying "he's won more titles than X or Y" is misleading because the amount of titles you win depends on who you manage. But there is clearly a difference between his performance as a manager and that of the people who come before and after him.
Incorrect I'm afraid.

Vilanova got more than 100 points the year after Pep lost the league to Jose's Madrid. I think he got sick soon after but I don't think you can say Pep outperformed him.

Enrique won the treble too. I think he was on course to match Pep's leagues but he left after 3 years whereas Pep stayed on for 4. He did amazing work and yet nobody talks about him being the Goat. If only he took the Bayern and City jobs after Barca....
 

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Incorrect I'm afraid.

Vilanova got more than 100 points the year after Pep lost the league to Jose's Madrid. I think he got sick soon after but I don't think you can say Pep outperformed him.

Enrique won the treble too. I think he was on course to match Pep's leagues but he left after 3 years whereas Pep stayed on for 4. He did amazing work and yet nobody talks about him being the Goat. If only he took the Bayern and City jobs after Barca....
You're joking with this post right? I mean,you can't be serious...
 

Olecurls99

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A perfect example to support my post - you can always twist a narrative to suit the argument and
People go to great lengths to do it. Mancini & Pellegrini we’re miles away from achieving what Pep has at City. Back to back titles, domestic treble, 100 points. Hopefully in a month we can add a Champions League to the list.
Where exactly is the twisting? I simply pointed out that Pep hasn't done anything special.

Lots of people have done what he's done. Somebody else will take over at City and win everything as well and certain people should then start to revise their opinions on Pep.

Although the fact that Enrique and Vilanova did amazing things at Barca still can't persuade some that maybe it was having the 3 of the top 4 best players in the world that helped all of their managers.
 

RedDevilzFox

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So you are saying sir alex did not have tactical acumen? A manager with 13 PL titles can't win that many titles without tactical acumen.
Where did I say there was no tactical acumen? I mean why do you guys read things in a simpleton black and white all or nothing ways??

Of course fergie was very successful in EPL. But during most of his time EPL wasn't highly tactical to begin with. Its well known Serie a and La Liga were ways ahead of EPL and it wasn't until Mourinho arrived that the domestic scene began to change in terms of tactics and innovation. Ferguson is known for a lot of things but no one ever called him a "tactical genius" and it always showed in Europe with his limited success. I am not some sheeple that comes to RedCafe and WILL ONLY sing praises of fergie and not look at things objectively. Ferguson was amazing, no doubt about it, but lets not overlook he was usually worked over in Europe by other top teams. Man utd were always known for "grit" and "fight" around the continent and not for "tactics" and "shapes". The 2 UCL victories had elements of luck as well, first one we got pounded all game by BM only to win in last 2 mins and the other we were 1 JT PK away from losing.

I don't understand why one cannot talk about things as they are on this forum, why do we have to resort to "go support another team" or "newbie promotion system is broken" snarkiness. Its juvenile.
 

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Where did I say there was no tactical acumen? I mean why do you guys read things in a simpleton black and white all or nothing ways??

Of course fergie was very successful in EPL. But during most of his time EPL wasn't highly tactical to begin with. Its well known Serie a and La Liga were ways ahead of EPL and it wasn't until Mourinho arrived that the domestic scene began to change in terms of tactics and innovation. Ferguson is known for a lot of things but no one ever called him a "tactical genius" and it always showed in Europe with his limited success. I am not some sheeple that comes to RedCafe and WILL ONLY sing praises of fergie and not look at things objectively. Ferguson was amazing, no doubt about it, but lets not overlook he was usually worked over in Europe by other top teams. Man utd were always known for "grit" and "fight" around the continent and not for "tactics" and "shapes". The 2 UCL victories had elements of luck as well, first one we got pounded all game by BM only to win in last 2 mins and the other we were 1 JT PK away from losing.

I don't understand why one cannot talk about things as they are on this forum, why do we have to resort to "go support another team" or "newbie promotion system is broken" snarkiness. Its juvenile.
This post clearly but unsurprisingly shows that you didn’t watch the 1999 CL final. Just because we scored 2 late goals doesn’t mean we „got pounded“. You can watch the game and look at the stats as well. We had more shots on target, more possession, more corners than Bayern despite our midfield players being suspended but yeah it‘s us who got lucky because Bayern hit the bar/post.
If only we had the referee Pep got in the 2009 CL semi final, then we would know the true meaning of luck.
Also have you ever posted anything positive about current or past United teams or managers? Pep fanboy disguised as a United fan. What an act of cowardice.
 

amolbhatia50k

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This post clearly but unsurprisingly shows that you didn’t watch the 1999 CL final. Just because we scored 2 late goals doesn’t mean we „got pounded“. You can watch the game and look at the stats as well. We had more shots on target, more possession, more corners than Bayern despite our midfield players being suspended but yeah it‘s us who got lucky because Bayern hit the bar/post.
If only we had the referee Pep got in the 2009 CL semi final, then we would know the true meaning of luck.
Also have you ever posted anything positive about current or past United teams or managers? Pep fanboy disguised as a United fan. What an act of cowardice.
Bingo. Our CL wins were so incredibly lucky but Pep basically gets saved by the ref against Chelsea when they should have been dumped out, but that's alright.
 

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Bingo. Our CL wins were so incredibly lucky but Pep basically gets saved by the ref against Chelsea when they should have been dumped out, but that's alright.
For someone who thinks he isn't a sheep and a critical thinker, to come up with "no one ever called him a tactical genius" is contradicting post, like a sheep mentality. 'No one called him that, so I won't too' mentality.

Also for a critical thinker, he doesn't know how PL clubs were fecked with foreigner rule, which was removed around 1995-96 time. He reached 4 CL finals in that 17 years, Tactical Pep reached 3 CL finals in 13 years.

Obviously Pep is better tactically but the way people play down SAF's tactical strengths and knowledge is hilarious and in few cases downright stupid.
 

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For someone who thinks he isn't a sheep and a critical thinker, to come up with "no one ever called him a tactical genius" is contradicting post, like a sheep mentality. 'No one called him that, so I won't too' mentality.

Also for a critical thinker, he doesn't know how PL clubs were fecked with foreigner rule, which was removed around 1995-96 time. He reached 4 CL finals in that 17 years, Tactical Pep reached 3 CL finals in 13 years.

Obviously Pep is better tactically but the way people play down SAF's tactical strengths and knowledge is hilarious and in few cases downright stupid.
Its ridiculous that people only see Sir Alex as some kind of angry motivator/man manager who brought in assistants to do his tactics for him. Its something that you see in tons of United fans... but weirdly rarely see from other supporters. To think a man could win what Sir Alex has and not know football tactics is absurd. I don't think he obsessed over systems and was as rigid as Pep but he was a product of his time and Sir Alex was tactically very, very astute. It's idiotic some of the stuff people say about him when it comes to tactics. In 20 odd years I can probably count on two hands all the times I've seen him get things tactically wrong and even then I'd have a fair few spare fingers.

I think a lot of this is skewed by that 2nd CL final where Sir Alex did get the tactics wrong by trying to dominate Pep's Barca and you guys got schooled, but that was one of very few mistakes and Pep had probably the best XI (for a club side at least) of all time on the pitch.
 

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Its ridiculous that people only see Sir Alex as some kind of angry motivator/man manager who brought in assistants to do his tactics for him. Its something that you see in tons of United fans... but weirdly rarely see from other supporters. To think a man could win what Sir Alex has and not know football tactics is absurd. I don't think he obsessed over systems and was as rigid as Pep but he was a product of his time and Sir Alex was tactically very, very astute. It's idiotic some of the stuff people say about him when it comes to tactics. In 20 odd years I can probably count on two hands all the times I've seen him get things tactically wrong and even then I'd have a fair few spare fingers.

I think a lot of this is skewed by that 2nd CL final where Sir Alex did get the tactics wrong by trying to dominate Pep's Barca and you guys got schooled, but that was one of very few mistakes and Pep had probably the best XI (for a club side at least) of all time on the pitch.
Exactly. Few times someone in the media says dumb things and people somehow lap it up. Imagine manager surviving for 40 years, winning loads of trophies and then you listen to few saying "He wasn't all that tactically". He did it at club like Aberdeen which was a small club, then at sleeping giant ManUtd who didn't win league for 26 years and then continued that success for 20 years. So he passed all the "Modern day hypothetical tests" that people come up with, small club, sleep giant, big club, rebuilt teams, longevity.

This is like how the Keane's game was changed to "just a mad man who ran a lot hacking people and defensively good" instead of how crediting him with how good his passing was, how good he was at controlling the game.

Yeah he got tactics wrong for sure, in 2009 we had a chance but don't think we had a chance in 2011. That team was way too better than us.
 

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Exactly. Few times someone in the media says dumb things and people somehow lap it up. Imagine manager surviving for 40 years, winning loads of trophies and then you listen to few saying "He wasn't all that tactically". He did it at club like Aberdeen which was a small club, then at sleeping giant ManUtd who didn't win league for 26 years and then continued that success for 20 years. So he passed all the "Modern day hypothetical tests" that people come up with, small club, sleep giant, big club, rebuilt teams, longevity.

This is like how the Keane's game was changed to "just a mad man who ran a lot hacking people and defensively good" instead of how crediting him with how good his passing was, how good he was at controlling the game.

Yeah he got tactics wrong for sure, in 2009 we had a chance but don't think we had a chance in 2011. That team was way too better than us.
Yeah its this weird thing with nostalgia where people pick one or two things from a persons career and decide that was exactly who they were and their only trait, like they are some kind of bad tv character. Keane is a great example (while he was a bit of cnut and plays it up on tv) he was a lot more than a hatchet man. Souness would be another one who gets the same treatment constantly. Two of the best midfielders ever to grace the league seen as some kind of hatchet men ala Vinnie Jones just because they got stuck in.

Its super weird, means I'm absolutely gonna be remember as a cnut cause of how I post on redcafe.
 

united_99

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Its ridiculous that people only see Sir Alex as some kind of angry motivator/man manager who brought in assistants to do his tactics for him. Its something that you see in tons of United fans... but weirdly rarely see from other supporters. To think a man could win what Sir Alex has and not know football tactics is absurd. I don't think he obsessed over systems and was as rigid as Pep but he was a product of his time and Sir Alex was tactically very, very astute. It's idiotic some of the stuff people say about him when it comes to tactics. In 20 odd years I can probably count on two hands all the times I've seen him get things tactically wrong and even then I'd have a fair few spare fingers.

I think a lot of this is skewed by that 2nd CL final where Sir Alex did get the tactics wrong by trying to dominate Pep's Barca and you guys got schooled, but that was one of very few mistakes and Pep had probably the best XI (for a club side at least) of all time on the pitch.
It’s really laughable. Apparently Mourinho introduced „tactics“ in the PL (despite Wenger bringing tactical changes way before him). But then SAF won the title back from Mourinho despite spending very little compared to Chelsea.
Also incredible that people believe man management and motivational speeches or hairdryers will win you that many titles. Maybe 1 or 2 (good momentum and all that), but as many as SAF has won?
Also his coaches who get all the credit: geniuses like McClaren and Queiroz, what exactly did they achieve without SAF? I must have missed all the titles they have won and the great football they have played with England and Portugal and other teams.
But you are right, usually United fans come up with that kind of stuff and opposition fans pick it up.
Queiroz’ preparation to stop Barca scoring a goal against United in the CL semi 2008 has a lot to do with this perception. But then Queiroz was also assistant when we had bad CL results in 2002/03, 2004/05, 2006/07 and the worst of them all (probably United’s worst CL campaign ever) coming last in an easy CL group in 2005/06 but no one questions Quieroz on that.
 

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Incorrect I'm afraid.

Vilanova got more than 100 points the year after Pep lost the league to Jose's Madrid. I think he got sick soon after but I don't think you can say Pep outperformed him.

Enrique won the treble too. I think he was on course to match Pep's leagues but he left after 3 years whereas Pep stayed on for 4. He did amazing work and yet nobody talks about him being the Goat. If only he took the Bayern and City jobs after Barca....
That's the point I've made a few times in here but there's a reluctance to acknowledge calculated career moves. As if they're a thing that don't exist.

The continued success of Barca post Pep should indeed wake people up to how important those players were to the success. It's either that or Barcelona had an incredible run of picking brilliant managers.

I think right now is the first time Pep is faced with building his own team. The players he inherited at City are almost all gone. Fair play they've done well this season.

It'll be interesting next year. For me Pep's first season with a team he bought(apart from a couple) and the conditions regarding covid and fixtures back to normal. Let's see how it goes.
 

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We will agree to disagree. Ferguson's great trait was that he was a great leader of men. He molded his teams in never say die spirit that fought until the very end. It was a great attribute to have and that's how his man utd teams are remembered.

Nowhere did I say he was tactically zero. But he was no Johann Cruff, Linus Micheles or even Pep Guardiola in that specific area. Saying that doesn't diminish his achievements which were monumental. But no one can be all things all the time. Pep is a below average man manager IMO, saying that doesn't diminish his achievements. This place just loves to read stuff in all or nothing mode.
 

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Its ridiculous that people only see Sir Alex as some kind of angry motivator/man manager who brought in assistants to do his tactics for him. Its something that you see in tons of United fans... but weirdly rarely see from other supporters. To think a man could win what Sir Alex has and not know football tactics is absurd. I don't think he obsessed over systems and was as rigid as Pep but he was a product of his time and Sir Alex was tactically very, very astute. It's idiotic some of the stuff people say about him when it comes to tactics. In 20 odd years I can probably count on two hands all the times I've seen him get things tactically wrong and even then I'd have a fair few spare fingers.

I think a lot of this is skewed by that 2nd CL final where Sir Alex did get the tactics wrong by trying to dominate Pep's Barca and you guys got schooled, but that was one of very few mistakes and Pep had probably the best XI (for a club side at least) of all time on the pitch.
I dont think there was any particularly good choices in either of them matches. Our midfield was pretty weak at the time, Barca were a bit of a kryptonite. Trying to sit back and soak up pressure wasn't much of an option with fairly early goals in both matches.