Pep & Jürgen Vs the rest

[lilcurt]

Watching Chelsea Vs Liverpool and how comfortable it seems to be for the scouse got me thinking.

Do you think Pep and Jürgen rub their hands together when they look at the other so called big clubs in the league and see who they are managed by.

In Pep and Jürgen you have two managers at the top of their profession who are proven winners. Their rivals...

Manchester United - Ole seems to lack a style of football and doesn't come across to be tactically astute, very limited experience at the top level and no proven record of building a winning team.

Chelsea - Franks only other experience was at Derby. Did well with limited resources last season but doesn't seem to be able to organise a defence or find a best 11.

Arsenal - Arteta currently seems to be doing the best out of the upcoming managers, but again with no experience in getting through the bad periods I don't look others will look at him and be concerned at this point.

I am purposely not including Everton and Spurs. They both have very experienced managers but for different reasons I don't see them being any threat to City or Liverpool.

Such a depressing state of affairs, I fear it could almost become like La Liga where the league is fought between those two clubs and they syphon all the top talent (players, staff and managers) to maintain their dominance.

The talking point here? Well who do you see as managers out there, in the Premier League or not who could actually come in to one of the aforementioned clubs and really be a challenge to the other two?

 

[VorZakone]

Have faith in Ole.

 

[cyberman]

Did you see Citys results against the big sides last year?

 

[Siorac]

Liverpool and City will dominate as long as those two are here. That's the reality. Once they leave, it'll get interesting. That should be Chelsea's time to get back to challenging.

 

[padr81]

No I don't. I don't think either manager look down on any other. They didn't get where they are by rubbing their hands together and dismissing upcoming talent. There was a time when Pep and Jurgen were in the shoes of Ole and co...
They dismiss no one.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Watching Chelsea Vs Liverpool and how comfortable it seems to be for the scouse got me thinking.

Do you think Pep and Jürgen rub their hands together when they look at the other so called big clubs in the league and see who they are managed by.

In Pep and Jürgen you have two managers at the top of their profession who are proven winners. Their rivals...

Manchester United - Ole seems to lack a style of football and doesn't come across to be tactically astute, very limited experience at the top level and no proven record of build a winning team.

Chelsea - Franks only other experience was at Derby. Did well with limited resources last season but doesn't seem to be able to organise a defence or find a best 11.

Arsenal - Arteta currently seems to be doing the best out of the upcoming managers, but again with no experience in getting through the bad periods I don't look others will look at him and be concerned at this point.

I am purposely not including Everton and Spurs. They both have very experienced managers but for different reasons I don't see them being any threat to City or Liverpool.

Such a depressing state of affairs, I fear it could almost become like La Liga where the league is fought between those two clubs and they syphon all the top talent (players, staff and managers) to maintain their dominance.

The talking point here? Well who do you see as managers out there, in the Premier League or not who could actually come in to one of the aforementioned clubs and really be a challenge to the other two?

They are like the Messi and Ronaldo of football coaching. There isn't anyone out there that can compete.

 

[lilcurt]

Have faith in Ole.

This isn't an Old bashing thread and I'm not Ole out. More just an honest look at Jürgen and Pep and how far they are ahead of the others in terms of their ability (so not just the players available to them).

 

[Skills]

There are a lot of talented managers coming through. We're just far too stupid to ever go for them until it's too late.

 

[lilcurt]

No I don't. I don't think either manager look down on any other. They didn't get where they are by rubbing their hands together and dismissing upcoming talent. There was a time when Pep and Jurgen were in the shoes of Ole and co...
They dismiss no one.

Perhaps I phrased it badly, I wouldn't think they would look down on others disrespectfully. But I just can't imagine them going into a game against one of the other three managers and being overly concerned that the manager is going to pull any tactical genius out the hat.

 

[James Peril]

They are head and shoulders above everyone else, not even the same sport. A good indication is the lack of aggression towards other managers, lack of obvious clashes on the touchline. Just a whole lot of hugs and high fives, they know the other guy can’t deal with them. Sad

 

[padr81]

Perhaps I phrased it badly, I wouldn't think they would look down on others disrespectfully. But I just can't imagine them going into a game against one of the other three managers and being overly concerned that the manager is going to pull any tactical genius out the hat.

Ole schooled Pep 3 times last season... and I say that as a City fan. particularly the game at the Etihad where Pep and everyone in the known universe expected you guys to come out and play on the counter but you came out pressed the life outta us, went 2-0 up and probably shoulda been 3 or 4 up at half time before Pep knew what hit him. Pep got it together at half time and we dominated the 2nd half, but the job was already done and you guys won 2-1.

For what its worth, I don't think any top manager fears others (cept maybe Jose whose made a career of it) but in general, I would say Ole and co.. get the same respect from Pep/Klopp as Pep/Klopp show each other. These guys are absolute pros and leave no stone unturned for any game.

In terms of managerial levels its clear Pep and Klopp are leagues above the rest, but their day will come and go as did Joses and Ancelotti's.

 

[Monkey bus]

I think you’re right when you say both Managers are at the top of their game. This won’t go on forever. I’d be surprised if Pep hung around for a full rebuild, and I’d be surprised if Klopp signed another contract. Following their departures which Manager would want to go in and try and surpass what they’ve achieved?

I’m sure fans of other clubs were asking the same questions when Arsenal, Chelsea and United dominated with Wenger, Jose and SAF.

United will always be looking to challenge (didn’t feel like it yesterday) and Roman won’t let Chelsea fall too far down the pecking order. With other investors circling around Prem clubs we’ll never see La Liga style dominance from these 2.

 

[Fooza]

Klopp and Pep need to leave soon, otherwise Liverpool and City will dominate for years to come, it ain't even fair. But kudos to Klopp, what his done with the money and players available has just been incredible. Totally transformed Liverpool to world beaters.

 

[Bebestation]

We just been going from one metronome to another.

From SAF's choice to an old manager focusing on younger technical players to an ageing manager focusing on older more physical players and now to a homegrown manager that just happen to work at the times it needed & may still do.

To be honest - Liverpool weren't improving even an element to anyones concern until Klopp turned up so it tells you how good he is as a manager.

Whatever happens with Woodward & Ole - it's not going to last forever & everyone knows it. We need to stop wasting time by targeting managers that play current tactical football and have proved something on the current footballing environment. Managers who are tactically flexible, are able to get the best with the little they have but know what type of players they need by looking at those players at his disposal.

Woodward shouldn't be here anymore- he would be fired by any other club for poor recruitment but he manages to shift all the attention back to the manager.

 

[ray24]

Both managers are at the top of their game. I think Arteta is good as a manager, but he lacks the resources of City, Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Did you see Citys results against the big sides last year?

Was thiking that haha. Don’t think Pep can rub his hands together when he lost about half a dozen games against the like of Ole, Lampard and Arteta last season.
Saying that I do sort of agree with the premise of the thread. Essentially the top two clubs have two world class manager whilst the next three have either rookies or bottom half level managers in charge.

 

[AshRK]

Ole schooled Pep 3 times last season... and I say that as a City fan. particularly the game at the Etihad where Pep and everyone in the known universe expected you guys to come out and play on the counter but you came out pressed the life outta us, went 2-0 up and probably shoulda been 3 or 4 up at half time before Pep knew what hit him. Pep got it together at half time and we dominated the 2nd half, but the job was already done and you guys won 2-1.

For what its worth, I don't think any top manager fears others (cept maybe Jose whose made a career of it) but in general, I would say Ole and co.. get the same respect from Pep/Klopp as Pep/Klopp show each other. These guys are absolute pros and leave no stone unturned for any game.

In terms of managerial levels its clear Pep and Klopp are leagues above the rest, but their day will come and go as did Joses and Ancelotti's.

A city fan speaking more sense than some United fans. Yes jurgen and pep are class apart but then you can bring in poch at United or Allegri at Chelsea and even then pep and klopp will be the two best managers around.

 

[RooneyLegend]

The likes of Ten Hag and Allegri would give them a run for their money. Especially with the resources that us and Chelsea have. What's happening at the moment is a joke really. Us and Chelsea are happy throwing seasons away.

 

[Chief123]

Wolves manager Nuno is 3rd best in league I reckon.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Wolves manager Gomes is 3rd best in league I reckon.

Not in a league with Ancelotti around he isn't. Don't think he's better than Potter and Arteta either.

 

[Snow]

They are like the Messi and Ronaldo of football coaching. There isn't anyone out there that can compete.

Conte beat them both in 16/17. Klopp has one domestic club title in 4 and a half seasons and Pep hasn't won the Champions League in 10 years. Plenty of clubs can compete, football is hard.

 

[Dancfc]

In summer 2018 it was "Pep vs the rest". Despite a CL final Pool were 25 points off the title (below Spurs and United also) and no one expected Klopp to challenge Pep anytime soon let alone topple him, infact Poch was widely seen as the more likely (but still unlikely) at that point.

Also in 2005 Jose was expected to turn the PL into his personal playground for a decade minimum.

Things can, and often do, change very quickly in football.

 

[Chief123]

Not in a league with Ancelotti around he isn't. Don't think he's better than Potter and Arteta either.

Ancelotti has had historic success. Last season everton were shite. They've only had 2 good games so far. Arteta has been managing for not even a full season yet!

 

[Suedesi]

They are like the Messi and Ronaldo of football coaching. There isn't anyone out there that can compete.

Except Rudy Garcia and Diego Simeone this year. Or Flick. Or Zidane over the past 3-4 years.

 

[paraguayo]

Wolves manager Gomes is 3rd best in league I reckon.

Gomes..?

 

[padr81]

Gomes..?

Exchanged Santos for Andre Gomes from Everton and put him in charge.

 

[el3mel]

They must be happy at level of incompetence surrounding them. Makes the league easier.

 

[Libano]

I wouldn't put Pep in the same league as Klopp. What he does is easy on the eye but time and again he has been found out by sides that know how to soak up the pressure and counter. That glaring hole in his arsenal is the reason he hasn't had a sniff at a CL title in so many years - with unparalleled resources.

 

[Sky1981]

Ole schooled Pep 3 times last season... and I say that as a City fan. particularly the game at the Etihad where Pep and everyone in the known universe expected you guys to come out and play on the counter but you came out pressed the life outta us, went 2-0 up and probably shoulda been 3 or 4 up at half time before Pep knew what hit him. Pep got it together at half time and we dominated the 2nd half, but the job was already done and you guys won 2-1.

For what its worth, I don't think any top manager fears others (cept maybe Jose whose made a career of it) but in general, I would say Ole and co.. get the same respect from Pep/Klopp as Pep/Klopp show each other. These guys are absolute pros and leave no stone unturned for any game.

In terms of managerial levels its clear Pep and Klopp are leagues above the rest, but their day will come and go as did Joses and Ancelotti's.

Ole schooled pep because pep's too stubborn to play dirty. He kept on insisiting to play his beautiful football even when Ole's waiting for it.

The kind of Naivety we had against Barcelona on those 2 Finals, the kind of naivety that Jose doesn't entertain during his Inter treble.

So I wouldn't call it Pep got Schooled.

 

[VorZakone]

Ole schooled pep because pep's too stubborn to play dirty. He kept on insisiting to play his beautiful football even when Ole's waiting for it.

The kind of Naivety we had against Barcelona on those 2 Finals, the kind of naivety that Jose doesn't entertain during his Inter treble.

So I wouldn't call it Pep got Schooled.

So...Pep got schooled?

 

[Sky1981]

So...Pep got schooled?

I'd say he's idealistic naive and this time it bit him in the arse.

You really honestly thinks Ole can school pep?

 

[gajender]

I'd say he's idealistic naive and this time it bit him in the arse.

You really honestly thinks Ole can school pep?

padre81 a city supporter literally gave you the example of game at Etihad where we took the game to City instead of sitting back when everyone expected us to just absorb the pressure but you wilfully ignored that .
And your point about Pep being Idealistic and naive isn't actually true, Pep's major issue of late has been trying to be too clever and pragmatic in his approach in biggest matches instead of just trusting the methods which have served him brilliantly .

 

[Sky1981]

padre81 a city supporter literally gave you the example of game at Etihad where we took the game to City instead of sitting back when everyone expected us to just absorb the pressure but you wilfully ignored that .
And your point about Pep being Idealistic and naive isn't actually true, Pep's major issue of late has been trying to be too clever and pragmatic in his approach in biggest matches instead of just trusting the methods which have served him brilliantly .

I still don't think Ole's in the same level as Klopp/Pep

Probably the same as the respect we gave tony pullis, as in they can make your work your socks of for points. But genuine respect? I doubted it, ole can't even find his own system let alone being in the same breath as Pep / Klopp.

I don't like Pep / Klopp, but in managerial terms they're the philiospher of their own formation (Tiki-Taka, Gegenpress), while Ole can't even decide between 433, 4321 or 352

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I don't think they look down on other managers like that.

They are the 2 best in the Prem though.

 

[murali_red]

I don't rate Pep, he is highly overrated. I'll change my opinion when he wins a title with a 3-6 team. He is chequebook manager.

Kloop is very good but is also greatly supported by his club. Thing about him is he is clear on what he wants and mostly gets it. Ole doesn't seem like he shows his authority to the board that this cannot work.

There are many good managers but it all depends on the opportunity and various factors.

 

[Hansinity]

I truly think Pep Guardiola is THE best coach in terms of knowledge, reading the game , improving players. It can´t be a coincidence that so many of his past players talk so highly of him, they look so impressed whenever talking about Pep. When asked about the best coaches in their career, so many players who played under different top tier coachs still mentioned Pep.
BUT he is way too stubborn to enforce his vision of football every single game. He probably knows that he needs to adapt his strategy sometimes, but he really wants to win with his style, no matter what. That is the main reason why he never made it past CL semis at Bayern. He got completey outcoached by Ancelottis Real back then who adapted his strategy. It was the first time that I saw Real Madrid parked the bus , but it was the way to beat that Bayern side. Guardiola would never do this.

What Klopp and some others like Heynckes or Flick did better is the interaction with the team on a personal level, which is actually so underrated. I feel Lampard and Arteta are pretty good in communciating and building trust within the team too.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I truly think Pep Guardiola is THE best coach in terms of knowledge, reading the game , improving players. It can´t be a coincidence that so many of his past players talk so highly of him, they look so impressed whenever talking about Pep. When asked about the best coaches in their career, so many players who played under different top tier coachs still mentioned Pep.
BUT he is way too stubborn to enforce his vision of football every single game. He probably knows that he needs to adapt his strategy sometimes, but he really wants to win with his style, no matter what. That is the main reason why he never made it past CL semis at Bayern. He got completey outcoached by Ancelottis Real back then who adapted his strategy. It was the first time that I saw Real Madrid parked the bus , but it was the way to beat that Bayern side. Guardiola would never do this.

What Klopp and some others like Heynckes or Flick did better is the interaction with the team on a personal level, which is actually so underrated. I feel Lampard and Arteta are pretty good in communciating and building trust within the team too.

He actually abandoned his principles for that Real defeat though.

He ended up going with this 442 variant and Bayern looked terrible of course.

Guardiola has since referred to that second-leg defeat as “the biggest f***-up of my life as a coach,” also saying: “I got it wrong, man. I got it totally wrong. It’s a monumental f***-up. A total mess. I spend the whole season refusing to use a 4-2-4. The whole season. And I decide to do it tonight, the most important night of the year. A complete f***-up.“
"There’s no doubt that Guardiola did indeed get his tactical set-up wrong, personal tragedy between both legs perhaps clouded his mind although he’d never admit it. But what is also true that his players, who lobbied Guardiola hard to play that same 4-2-3-1 (or 4-2-4 as Pep calls it) all season utterly failed to deliver when given their preferred formation."

https://www.squawka.com/en/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-real-madrid-disaster-champions-league/


I wouldn't pick that game to criticize his methods. Pick the game at the Nou Camp.

Bayern are decimated with injuries. Pep goes there and man marks MSN at their pomp for most of the 1st half.

 

[ray24]

I truly think Pep Guardiola is THE best coach in terms of knowledge, reading the game , improving players. It can´t be a coincidence that so many of his past players talk so highly of him, they look so impressed whenever talking about Pep. When asked about the best coaches in their career, so many players who played under different top tier coachs still mentioned Pep.
BUT he is way too stubborn to enforce his vision of football every single game. He probably knows that he needs to adapt his strategy sometimes, but he really wants to win with his style, no matter what. That is the main reason why he never made it past CL semis at Bayern. He got completey outcoached by Ancelottis Real back then who adapted his strategy. It was the first time that I saw Real Madrid parked the bus , but it was the way to beat that Bayern side. Guardiola would never do this.

What Klopp and some others like Heynckes or Flick did better is the interaction with the team on a personal level, which is actually so underrated. I feel Lampard and Arteta are pretty good in communciating and building trust within the team too.

Because when you win the CL with a dominant performance, you will end up in history books. Other clubs might play defensive football and nick a CL win, but no one outside of their club will think too much of those sides in the long run.

Barca 2011 is still remembered today as one of the greatest team in football. Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012 and etc are not really remembered by anyone for being a great football side despite winning the CL.

 

[Stacks]

The only coaches to beat Pep to a league title are Jose, Klopp and Conte?

 

[Gio]

I truly think Pep Guardiola is THE best coach in terms of knowledge, reading the game , improving players. It can´t be a coincidence that so many of his past players talk so highly of him, they look so impressed whenever talking about Pep. When asked about the best coaches in their career, so many players who played under different top tier coachs still mentioned Pep.
BUT he is way too stubborn to enforce his vision of football every single game. He probably knows that he needs to adapt his strategy sometimes, but he really wants to win with his style, no matter what. That is the main reason why he never made it past CL semis at Bayern. He got completey outcoached by Ancelottis Real back then who adapted his strategy. It was the first time that I saw Real Madrid parked the bus , but it was the way to beat that Bayern side. Guardiola would never do this.

What Klopp and some others like Heynckes or Flick did better is the interaction with the team on a personal level, which is actually so underrated. I feel Lampard and Arteta are pretty good in communciating and building trust within the team too.

He has changed his approach at the semi-final stage multiple times now. He's actually been guilty of changing things too much in recent years, interrupting their possession flow and losing the defensive cohesion. And against Lyon last month he did exactly what you've said above - went defensive with a 3-5-2 and a double pivot which made them sluggish on the ball and unable to overload in attack.