Pep & Jürgen Vs the rest

Fosu-Mens

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Liverpool and City will dominate as long as those two are here. That's the reality. Once they leave, it'll get interesting. That should be Chelsea's time to get back to challenging.
There will be "organizational knowledge" in those clubs after the managers leave, especially at City... Look at Bayern as an example: They are still just as excellent at keeping the ball and being efficient passers as they were under Pep. They have added some elements to their approach, but their possession and efficient use of the ball is still a foundation for how they play. And when they get new players in, these are "coached" by the other players/staff.
 

Siorac

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There will be "organizational knowledge" in those clubs after the managers leave, especially at City... Look at Bayern as an example: They are still just as excellent at keeping the ball and being efficient passers as they were under Pep. They have added some elements to their approach, but their possession and efficient use of the ball is still a foundation for how they play. And when they get new players in, these are "coached" by the other players/staff.
Yeah, that's what we thought when Fergie left, too...
 

Damien

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Ole schooled Pep 3 times last season... and I say that as a City fan. particularly the game at the Etihad where Pep and everyone in the known universe expected you guys to come out and play on the counter but you came out pressed the life outta us, went 2-0 up and probably shoulda been 3 or 4 up at half time before Pep knew what hit him. Pep got it together at half time and we dominated the 2nd half, but the job was already done and you guys won 2-1.

For what its worth, I don't think any top manager fears others (cept maybe Jose whose made a career of it) but in general, I would say Ole and co.. get the same respect from Pep/Klopp as Pep/Klopp show each other. These guys are absolute pros and leave no stone unturned for any game.

In terms of managerial levels its clear Pep and Klopp are leagues above the rest, but their day will come and go as did Joses and Ancelotti's.
Yeah, there's a lot of talk about how Ole doesn't have a style or is rubbish tactically, but last season our record against the "big six" was the second best with 18 points, just four behind the league champions, and five ahead of Manchester City and Chelsea, and we conceded five fewer goals than the next closest team.


Problem we had/have is similar to under Van Gaal - did really well against the big six but so many poor results against the other 14 sides, but we did improve in that regard after we signed Bruno. We won away to Villa and Palace but they're the kinds of games we would have lost before we signed him. Which is why I really hope we do sign another creative player in the form of Sancho (unlikely) or similar as beyond our first XI, our depth is shocking. Chelsea and Liverpool have hugely improved in that regard with the signings they made.
 

Fosu-Mens

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Yeah, that's what we thought when Fergie left, too...
Well, we sacked all the coaches and SAF was not a tactical manager. A lot of the players that had played at the club and under SAF for a number of years left during this time. And we did not have a particular style of play under SAF for his last 2/3 years...
Still, I should clarify: As long as City and Liverpool appoint a manager that is not radically different tactically from their predecessors and they are not selling a majority of their "knowledge and culture" players over a short amount of time, then they should still be able to perform at a relatively high level.
 

Loon

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I think Guardiola and Klopp rub their hands when they see the Organisation at their respective clubs. Makes life a lot easier I imagine.
 

ray24

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Yeah, that's what we thought when Fergie left, too...
Ferguson's tactical knowledge towards the end of his reign was a 442 that get beaten in Europe almost everytime. Your club was already being left behind by the other top clubs from around 10/11 onwards.
 

Hansinity

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He has changed his approach at the semi-final stage multiple times now. He's actually been guilty of changing things too much in recent years, interrupting their possession flow and losing the defensive cohesion. And against Lyon last month he did exactly what you've said above - went defensive with a 3-5-2 and a double pivot which made them sluggish on the ball and unable to overload in attack.

My mistake to not elaborate further. By " adapting his strategy " I rather mean that he still played with a very high line in the back. If I remember correctly at least 2 of the 3 goals City conceded against Lyon were typical goals Guardiola teams concede.
 

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My mistake to not elaborate further. By " adapting his strategy " I rather mean that he still played with a very high line in the back. If I remember correctly at least 2 of the 3 goals City conceded against Lyon were typical goals Guardiola teams concede.
True. I agree with the fundamental point that he cannot play any other way than by dominating the ball, and that his high line tactics have been exposed in recent years primarily because his centre-half recruitment hasn't been good enough.
 

Lewnited

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Ferguson's tactical knowledge towards the end of his reign was a 442 that get beaten in Europe almost everytime. Your club was already being left behind by the other top clubs from around 10/11 onwards.
This is a ridiculous statement, by around 2007 we had already become fluid enough to reguarly switch between a 442, 433 and 451 when necessary. On top of that, from 10/11 onwards we won two Premier Leagues and got to a Champions League final. I don't know how you're quantifying being 'left behind', but lord knows what that makes us now!
 

LucasXXII

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How is Pep heads and shoulders above the likes of Ole, Lampard and Arteta with the squad he has, the money he’s spent, and City being behind the PL champion by 19 points and knocked out by Lyon in the UCL last season?

The Barcelona bias here is so blatant
 

Hansinity

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He actually abandoned his principles for that Real defeat though.

He ended up going with this 442 variant and Bayern looked terrible of course.

Guardiola has since referred to that second-leg defeat as “the biggest f***-up of my life as a coach,” also saying: “I got it wrong, man. I got it totally wrong. It’s a monumental f***-up. A total mess. I spend the whole season refusing to use a 4-2-4. The whole season. And I decide to do it tonight, the most important night of the year. A complete f***-up.
"There’s no doubt that Guardiola did indeed get his tactical set-up wrong, personal tragedy between both legs perhaps clouded his mind although he’d never admit it. But what is also true that his players, who lobbied Guardiola hard to play that same 4-2-3-1 (or 4-2-4 as Pep calls it) all season utterly failed to deliver when given their preferred formation."

https://www.squawka.com/en/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-real-madrid-disaster-champions-league/


I wouldn't pick that game to criticize his methods. Pick the game at the Nou Camp.

Bayern are decimated with injuries. Pep goes there and man marks MSN at their pomp for most of the 1st half.
I actually refer to the 0:1 loss in the first leg. Real Madrid parked the bus and waited for coutner attacks, cauuse it was obvious Pep plays with a highline in the back again.

By " enforcing his vision" I specifically refer to the high backline. A symptom of Peps defeats during Bayern´s time. He actually never abandoned his principle of the high backline.
 
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Hound Dog

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Barca 2011 is still remembered today as one of the greatest team in football. Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012 and etc are not really remembered by anyone for being a great football side despite winning the CL.
Don't you think that this may have to do with the fact that Barca 2011 had much much much better players than the two sides you mentioned?
 

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Ferguson's tactical knowledge towards the end of his reign was a 442 that get beaten in Europe almost everytime. Your club was already being left behind by the other top clubs from around 10/11 onwards.
Fair comment on the 2011 final and the Bilbao exit the following campaign. Equally though United comfortably disposed of Ancelotti's Chelsea en route to that final while playing 4-4-2. And in Ferguson's final ever European tie against Mourinho's Madrid he used a 4-2-3-1, controversially dropping Rooney, which gave United control of the tie until Nani's red card.
 

Hansinity

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True. I agree with the fundamental point that he cannot play any other way than by dominating the ball, and that his high line tactics have been exposed in recent years primarily because his centre-half recruitment hasn't been good enough.
I don´t think it is primarily because of his CB recruitment. The main issue is more that the way Peps wants to play puts a lot of pressure to the defence. Especially for CBs and CMs. It is incredibly hard to shine as a defensive player under Pep imo. I am sure you can put any world class defender in Peps side and he will look weaker than in another more defensive orientated system. It is the same what happened in the German Nationalteam. You had Hummels, Boateng , Kroos and a prime Khedira back then. So many times they got overrun and they were the ones getting criticized although in these kind of systems everyone has to be on the same page and everyone has to defend.

A top defender for Pep is so hard to find imo. Great build up game definitely needed and ideally fast. There aren´t too many good ball-playing defenders. Boateng, Hummels, Pique, Ramos, Thiago Silva, Mascherano, Bonnuci come to my mind. It is no coincidence that Boateng was the best CB in the world under Heynckes, he was actually incredible during that time. He was still good under Pep as he is the ideal CB for Pep ( fast, great build up game, strong with the ball ) , but Peps system ( and injuries) definitely made him look weaker.
 
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padr81

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I don´t think it is primarily because of his CB recruitment. The main issue is more that he way Peps wants to play puts a lot of pressure to the defence. Especially for CBs and CMs. It is incredibly hard to shine as a defensive player under Pep imo. I am sure you can put any world class defender in Peps side and he will look weaker than in another more defensive orientated system. It is the same what happened in the German Nationalteam. You had Hummels, Boateng , Kroos and a prime Khedira back then. So many times they got overrun and they were the ones getting criticized although in these kind of systems everyone has to be on the same page and everyone has to defend.

A top defender for Pep is so hard to find imo. Great build up game definitely needed and ideally fast. There aren´t too many good ball-playing defenders. Boateng, Hummels, Pique, Ramos, Thiago Silva, Mascherano, Bonnuci come to my mind.
Great post and something sorely mistaken. City don't have shit defenders, they have a system that leaves defenders alone. Put VVD and Laporte in their together and we still ship calamity goals. Risk vs Reward and the risk pays off for Pep.
 

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I don´t think it is primarily because of his CB recruitment. The main issue is more that the way Peps wants to play puts a lot of pressure to the defence. Especially for CBs and CMs. It is incredibly hard to shine as a defensive player under Pep imo. I am sure you can put any world class defender in Peps side and he will look weaker than in another more defensive orientated system. It is the same what happened in the German Nationalteam. You had Hummels, Boateng , Kroos and a prime Khedira back then. So many times they got overrun and they were the ones getting criticized although in these kind of systems everyone has to be on the same page and everyone has to defend.

A top defender for Pep is so hard to find imo. Great build up game definitely needed and ideally fast. There aren´t too many good ball-playing defenders. Boateng, Hummels, Pique, Ramos, Thiago Silva, Mascherano, Bonnuci come to my mind. It is no coincidence that Boateng was the best CB in the world under Heynckes, he was actually incredible during that time. He was still good under Pep as he is the ideal CB for Pep ( fast, great build up game, strong with the ball ) , but Peps system ( and injuries) definitely made him look weaker.
Bit of both. Liverpool also play extremely high but they have (a) better/more athletic CBs particularly in Van Dijk, and (b) a more compact midfield unit that protects the defence better off the ball. City ended up with some relatively mediocre players at centre-half last season after they failed to replace Kompany and once Laporte was injured.
 

Hansinity

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Bit of both. Liverpool also play extremely high but they have (a) better/more athletic CBs particularly in Van Dijk, and (b) a more compact midfield unit that protects the defence better off the ball. City ended up with some relatively mediocre players at centre-half last season after they failed to replace Kompany and once Laporte was injured.
Fair enough, agree.
 

myjdjames

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I actually think that it's the other managers who look at them and probably get a bit nervous and start off on the back foot; allowing the manager to already start winning the battle before getting onto the pitch. Add their aura to their world class squads, and i'd be rubbing my hands together too.

i think terms of strategy expectations; it must be nice for them if their opponents (the rest of the PL managers) are so one-dimensional that they know what to expect so they plan for it (excluding the bad decision or uncontrollable factors that may influence a game)
 

ray24

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Don't you think that this may have to do with the fact that Barca 2011 had much much much better players than the two sides you mentioned?
Better players sure, but if they played a defensive or conservative style of play, no one would remember them fondly as one of the greatest club sides.


Fair comment on the 2011 final and the Bilbao exit the following campaign. Equally though United comfortably disposed of Ancelotti's Chelsea en route to that final while playing 4-4-2. And in Ferguson's final ever European tie against Mourinho's Madrid he used a 4-2-3-1, controversially dropping Rooney, which gave United control of the tie until Nani's red card.
Yes, you guys did well in some of his last few European games, but they were not dominant performances. More to the point, those sides that you beat were not clubs that played a pressing game at the time. Whenever you guys faced an opponent that played aggressive pressing but technical football, you tend to lose control of the game.
 

cyberman

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Pep loves it alright. They seem to lose against most top sides they face these days
 

gajender

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Pep loves it alright. They seem to lose against most top sides they face these days
Pep seem to be struggling and as Good as Klopp has been United need to get it's act together and start competing for the league sooner rather than later , notion that both have them need to leave the league for Us to have any chance is absurd we need to upgrade our personnel and the manager writing off season should not be acceptable , things can change quickly in football nobody is invincible.
 

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Why has he gone against keep ball? Is it due to his players available or deliberate? I noticed against Lyon as well.

They don't look nearly as formidable but neither do Liverpool. Pool barely troubled a shaky city backline.
 

charlenefan

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Why has he gone against keep ball? Is it due to his players available or deliberate? I noticed against Lyon as well.

They don't look nearly as formidable but neither do Liverpool. Pool barely troubled a shaky city backline.
their midfield has downgraded, Rodri/Gundogan/De Bruyne doesn't come close to Fernandinho/Silva/De Bruyne
 

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No chance or rather low chance to beat them both in league across all the games (not just bragging rights vs top teams record).

Medium chance in CL.

High chances for the rest to beat them in FA Cup and League/Carling/Carabao Cup (whatever its name is).