Pep's record in away legs of CL knockouts

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by crappycraperson, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. Apr 5, 2018
    #1

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    For someone touted as the best manager of his generation, Pep's record in terms of results at away matches in CL knockout ties is pretty bad. He has no signature win to speak of other than a 2-0 win away at Madrid. (I checked the numbers just to be sure. )

    I remember Barca utterly dominating Arsenal at Emirates and then fail to get the win there. Their 2 matches there finished as 2-1 win to Arsenal and a 2-2 draw. That Iniesta wonder goal against Chelsea at the bridge masked a pretty bad performance by Barca where Alves was just waffling crosses into the box with no impact.

    The season Inter beat him in semis was also driven by a 3-1 win at San siro against Barca and the same season, he could not even beat Stuttgart or Arsenal away.

    2010/11 was the season he perhaps did best given that 2-0 Madrid win and a 1-0 away win at Shakhtar. Then of course the famous loss to Chelsea in semis also included a 1-0 loss at Bridge to a team on its last legs managed by Di Matteo. (The same season he did win away at Leverkusen and OM).

    Under Bayern, people remember the demolition of Bayern at home by Real but again they did not get great results in away legs either under Pep. I mean Jupp Heynckes had that big away win at Camp Nou when they completely dismantled Barca's great team but Pep could not repeat that success at all.

    Only big away wins to speak for were against Arsenal at Emirates. He could not beat a poor United team under Moyes at OT, lost 3-1 away to Porto, lost 1-0 away to Atletico even if you ignore losses away at Barca and Real (and also at home).
    Bayern's best away performance under Pep was either the 2-2 draw at Juve or 2-1 normal time win at Madrid that they eventually lost in added time.

    I get that historical precedents tell us that no team is going to enjoy same success at away matches as home matches. But with Pep you hear all the time that he does not compromise his tactics for any kind of matches. Plus he has been in charge of super teams throughout his managerial tenure. So one would expect at least better results in away legs than shown so far. Real team in the current run itself has had great results in away legs already (multiple wins at Allianz, win at Juve/PSG away).

    Where do you think the problem is? In Pep's rigidness to alter the tactics for away matches? Or there is no problem there to speak of.
  2. Apr 5, 2018
    #2

    cyberman Full Member

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    Pep overthinks it.
    He hammers home to his players that there's only one way to play football. He then overthinks it in Europe to the point his tactics resembles his philosophy but there's just enough alterations that makes it unnatural for his players.
  3. Apr 5, 2018
    #3

    Trizy New Member

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    He's a very good coach but always has had the best domestic teams.

    Spain: Barcelona - Best XI of all time
    Germany: 1 club league and took over a treble winning team
    City: Best team on paper, added to that best team with massive, massive spending.

    Like I said, he's a very good coach but this talk about him reinventing football and all that nonsense needs to stop. The media protection is also baffling. RTE 2 (Irish TV) ripped into him last night after the game and rightly so. It was refreshing to see.
  4. Apr 5, 2018
    #4

    Jim Beam The Joker

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    Better quality of teams for sure, but most importantly being at home and attacking them imo. He's been beaten and comfortably by the likes of Porto, Monaco and Liverpool all scoring 3 goals against his teams.
  5. Apr 5, 2018
    #5

    Cal? CR7 fan

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    The few times he did win away in a big CL game, the referee did more than he ever did.

    The scandal of Stamford Bridge, the scandal of Bernabeu... :nono:
  6. Apr 5, 2018
    #6

    mvpkennedy New Member

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    With Bayern & City his away record in the knockout stage:

    2:0 Arsenal
    1:1 United
    0:1 Real Madrid
    0:0 Shakhtar
    1:3 Porto
    0:3 FC Barcelona
    2:2 Juventus
    2:2 Benfica
    0:1 Atletico M.
    1:3 Monaco
    4:0 Basel
    0:3 Liverpool

    2 Wins, 4 Draws, 6 Losses! 13:19 Goals

    Would be interesting to compare it with other top Managers.
  7. Apr 5, 2018
    #7

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    That is actually shocking when you consider the squads he had at his disposal.
  8. Apr 5, 2018
    #8

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    And played Moyes United who were beaten easily by City and Liverpool.
  9. Apr 5, 2018
    #9

    The Man Himself asked for a tagline change and all I got was this.

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    I checked and compared his record with Mourinho in the morning. Both have negative goal differences if CL knockouts in career are considered, Mourinho has 7 wins in 28, 25% wins. 10 draws, 11 losses. Pep has 5 wins in 24. 10 draws 9 losses. What's key is that many of their draws have been to teams a tier or two below.
  10. Apr 5, 2018
    #10

    mvpkennedy New Member

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    I did it myself.(checking the last 12 games) :D

    Jose Mourinho:

    with Real
    1:1 FC Barcelona
    1:1 CSKA
    3:0 Nikosia
    1:2 FC Bayern
    2:1 United
    2:3 Galatasaray
    1:4 Dortmund
    with Chelsea
    1:1 Galatasaray
    1:3 PSG
    0:0 Atletico M.
    1:1 PSG
    with United
    1:2 Sevilla

    So Mourinho´s Record is equally bad, did not expect that. :confused::eek: 2 Wins, 5 Draws, 5 Losses. 15:19 Goals.



    Massimiliano Allegri:

    with AC Milan
    0:0 Tottenham
    0:3 Arsenal
    1:3 FC Barcelona
    0:4 FC Barcelona

    with Juve
    3:0 Dortmund
    0:0 Monaco
    1:1 Real Madrid
    2:4 FC Bayern
    2:0 FC Porto
    0:0 Barcelona
    2:0 Monaco
    2:1 Tottenham

    Impressive Record for Allegri with Juve. :eek: He had a really weak AC Milan side so it would not be fair to take that into consideration. 4 Wins, 3 Draws, 1 Loss with 12:6 Goals with Juve. :eek:


    Jupp Heynckes:

    with Bayern
    0:1 Basel
    2:0 Marseille
    1:2 Real Madrid
    3:1 Arsenal
    2:0 Juventus
    3:0 FC Barcelona
    3:1 Besiktas
    2:1 Sevilla

    6 Wins, 2 Losses. :houllier: 16:6 Goals.


    Jurgen Klopp:

    with Dortmund
    2:2 Shakhtar
    0:0 Malaga
    0:2 Real Madrid
    4:2 Zenit
    0:3 Real Madrid
    1:2 Juventus

    with Liverpool
    5:0 FC Porto

    2 Wins, 2 Draws, 3 Losses. 12:11 Goals.


    Diego Simeone:

    with Atletico
    1:0 AC Milan
    1:1 FC Barcelona
    3:1 Chelsea
    0:1 Leverkusen
    0:1 Real Madrid
    0:0 PSV
    1:2 FC Barcelona
    1:2 FC Bayern
    4:2 Leverkusen
    1:1 Leicester
    0:3 Real Madrid

    3 Wins, 3 Draws, 5 Losses, 12:14 Goals.


    Summing up: Guardiola, Mourinho and Simeone with a pretty bad record. Allegri & Heynckes had excellent results.


  11. Apr 5, 2018
    #11

    Turnip Full Member

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    Glad I'm not the only one. I'm not saying he's not good, but I'd love to see him take over a team with a challenge approaching them and repeat some of those achievements. Feel people suck him off for being something spectacular yet he's never really earned that respect yet. City was his biggest challenge but he's still basically playing Football Manager with an infinite money cheat on, I don't think he could do it without the ludicrous spending or inheriting a ready made world class squads, or at least he hasn't proven he can.
  12. Apr 5, 2018
    #12

    Schneckerl Full Member

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    What's his record for Porto and Inter? Doesn't have the strength of schedule excuse either here.
  13. Apr 5, 2018
    #13

    mvpkennedy New Member

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    With Inter: 0:2 United, 1:0 Chelsea, 1:0 CSKA, 0:1 Barcelona
    With Chelsea: 1:2 Barcelona, 2:3 FC Bayern, 0:1 Liverpool, 1:1 Barcelona, 1:1 Porto, 2:1 Valencia, 1:4 Liverpool,
    With Porto: 1:1 United, 2:2 Lyon, 1:0 La Coruna
  14. Apr 5, 2018
    #14

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    Yeah it doesn’t seem fair to talk about Mourinho’s record in Europe and not include the four European trophies he’s won.
  15. Apr 5, 2018
    #15

    giorno Full Member

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    Not a particularly good or useful stat btw

    First, we're talking two legged ties. Far more likely to lose or drae the second leg away if the first ended 7-0. Bayern's 3-0 win in barcelona, without Messi, wasn't nearly as impressive as people think now. Tie was already over after the first leg(reason why Messi did not play)

    Then there are things such as an inept ref altering a game...
  16. Apr 5, 2018
    #15

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    Winning the Champions League is difficult. For as much as United fans feel like we should have won it more times under Sir Alex, I don't think it was an entirely fair expectation. Football, especially a knockout tournament with away goal complications makes it quite a challenge.
  17. Apr 5, 2018
    #16

    Blackwidow Full Member

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    You are right about this. The first leg is always important. That is why I never really understood Pep's tactics with Bayern in the first leg. That goal in the first leg is so important!

    2:0 Arsenal 1st
    1:1 United 1st
    0:1 Real Madrid 1st
    0:0 Shakhtar 1st
    1:3 Porto 1st
    0:3 FC Barcelona 1st
    2:2 Juventus 1st
    2:2 Benfica 2nd
    0:1 Atletico M. 1st

    With Bayern he had only one 1st leg at home - all others were away.

    Pep played in a 4-3-3 with 3 midfielders when he wanted to control a match - when he needed goals he played with Müller behind the striker. He killed Bayern's offense with this - as no matter who played there is only one goal participation (assist or goal - Mandzukic's assist for Basti's header at Old Trafford) by a Bayern offensive player in all of the away first leg matches whenever we played in a 4-3-3. The only match we started with Lewy, Müller and two wingers was Juve...

    ---------------

    Yesterday I listened to the aftermatch press conference. Why he played Gündogan and not a real second winger - because he wanted to control the match...
  18. Apr 5, 2018
    #17

    Cristiano Lell BANNED LOLZ

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    Away at Juve was the only CL knockout away game Pep ever got right.
    No timidity, no changing his usual, successful, attacking 4-1-4-1 approach towards slow tikinaccio possession hoarding. It worked like a charm.
    But his instinct in those games is to try to play it safe, and shoot himself in the foot doing so.
  19. Apr 5, 2018
    #18

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Nailed it.

    I personally think if he just kept it gung-ho but just worked on having a more varied style in terms of how he wants to attack, he'd have notched up some wins but by compromising, he exposes his sides weaknesses even more especially as he himself doesn't really have the nous to pull off such cagey displays.
  20. Apr 5, 2018
    #19

    Treble Full Member

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    His philosophy isn't that great for away games vs strong opposition. He knows it but he still hasn't figured out what to do without compromising his basic principles. The problem last night wasn't that he was too stubborn but that he was too cautious and made a big mistake with Gundogan. Going for a slugfest with Liverpool would have brought a better result.
  21. Apr 5, 2018
    #20

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Don't agree. Given Pep's own prowess as a manager and the squads he had at his disposal - Barca and Bayern ones were definitely top 3 in last decade - he should have a better away record. It also speaks towards him underperforming in CL since his last win. If he was rebuilding Bayern then his CL failure with them could be excused but the Bayern team that won the CL a season before he took over was not a collection of all ageing stars. Several players were at their peak then and he also added players like Gotze, Thiago, Lewandowski to the squad.

    Losing 3-0 to Liverpool when he already got a full preview of Klopp's tactics when they faced them at anfield earlier in the league is very poor showing for a team that is leading the league by so many points. He once again tried a new tactical approach in a key CL match and failed.
  22. Apr 5, 2018
    #21

    fcbforever New Member

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    By the way, Heynckes stats away from home in knockouts: won 12, drew 3, lost 5. Just saying.
  23. Apr 5, 2018
    #22

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    Bolded. Mourinho has a similar record as highlighted in this thread, and he's known as a so called "pragmatic" manager. Ditto with Simeone.

    @mvpkennedy did the analysis for Allegri and deliberately ignored his Milan record. Heyneke's numbers only cover the past 2 years... surely there's more history?

    I'd be interested in seeing the numbers for Ferguson, Lippi, Ancelotti, Wenger...

    Also, it must be said that this analysis is heavily CL centric, it's a competition that introduces volatility and luck into results. Heynekes has great numbers based on the last 2 seasons in the competition, however this factors very little in how much I rate him compared to the other managers in Europe.
  24. Apr 5, 2018
    #23

    fcbforever New Member

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    Heynckes numbers, as posted by me (W12 D3 L5) cover his entire career mate .
  25. Apr 5, 2018
    #24

    KM I’m afraid I just blue myself Staff

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    Agreed.

    Very shocking that in a thread titled " Pep's record in away legs of CL knockouts", the analysis is heavily CL centric.
  26. Apr 5, 2018
    #25

    breakout67 Full Member

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    Can't be having a thread that doesn't paint Guardiola as Jesus Christ himself.
  27. Apr 5, 2018
    #26

    Stocar Full Member

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    Wouldn't read too much into home/away record in the competition that is inherently unpredictable, with teams generally evenly matched in quality.

    However, I'd agree that managers who tend to keep it simple and rely on improvisation/inspiration have a certain advantage in this type of competition.
  28. Apr 5, 2018
    #27

    whatwha Sniffs Erricksson’s diarrhea

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    :lol: No shit.
  29. Apr 5, 2018
    #28

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    Ah, missed that. Thanks.

    Since I'm bored, I looked at Ferguson's record over the last 10 years with us.

    2013: 1D (Real Madrid)
    2012: 1D (Ajax), 1L (Bilbao) *Europa
    2011: 2W (Chelsea, Schalke), 1D (Marseille)
    2010: 1W (Milan), 1L (Bayern)
    2009: 2W (Porto, Arsenal), 1D (Inter)
    2008: 1W (Roma), 2D (Lyon, Barcelona)
    2007: 1W (Lille), 2L (Milan, Roma)
    2006: Didn't qualify
    2005: 1L (Milan)
    2004: 1L (Porto)

    Prior to this, the 2nd group stage applies, so that muddies the water a little bit. Plus we were hampered in Europe by the foreigners rule so don't want to go too far in the past.

    Overall, 7W, 6D, 6L. Not bad.
  30. Apr 5, 2018
    #29

    Treble Full Member

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    Great numbers indeed. But it tells a story too that at the age of 72 he has managed less CL games than Jose and Guardiola who are much younger than him.
  31. Apr 5, 2018
    #30

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    My point is that it's a very myopic way of evaluating the quality of a manager, which is the point of the OP.

    There are more valid reasons to not rate Guardiola than use this. Because as noted, using that criteria damns Mourinho and Simeone (who I think is the best manager in Europe tactics wise). So then what?
  32. Apr 5, 2018
    #31

    fcbforever New Member

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    There might be the small issue that the Orginal competitions had less knockout ties ...

    Also, you only qualified for the Champions Cup by winning the league until 92. Just had less opportunities.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  33. Apr 5, 2018
    #32

    el3mel Full Member

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    This post made me laugh harder than it should. :lol:
  34. Apr 5, 2018
    #33

    giorno Full Member

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    You might want to think about that a bit more :rolleyes:

    You're right about having less chances though

    Ancelotti: W9* D12 L8*

    Record by club Juventus(2D) Milan(3W 8D 3L) Chelsea(1W 2L) PSG(1W 1D) Madrid(3W 1D 2L) Bayern(1W 1L*)

    *real madrid-bayern 1-2(4-2 aet)
  35. Apr 5, 2018
    #34

    fcbforever New Member

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    Eh? In the late 80‘s, it had group stages but no round of last 32.
  36. Apr 5, 2018
    #35

    giorno Full Member

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    In the 80s it was KO stage only. 5 stages to be precise
  37. Apr 5, 2018
    #36

    fcbforever New Member

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    LOL you are right, I just ignored everything below the quarters. Which is fair enough I guess. His record would look even better then. But that would take into account clubs like Tirana :wenger:
  38. Apr 5, 2018
    #37

    buckooo1978 Full Member

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    last night demanded some sort of pragmatism from Pep

    he gambled and lost

    that lack of flexibility is a flaw in his character
  39. Apr 5, 2018
    #38

    esmufc07 Won the Grand National Sweepstake once Scout

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    We used to be shite in the CL away from home, like proper shite. I had a thread going a while back when we used to be good.

    This was after our 3-0 defeat away to Milan in 2007. (One defeat in 23 and that was the last minute goal to Bayern)

    1. Sporting Lisbon 0 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    2. Dynamo Kiev 2 - 4 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    3. Roma 1 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    4. Lyon 1 - 1 Manchester United (Last 16)
    5. Roma 0 - 2 Manchester United (Quarter-Final)
    6. Barcelona 0 - 0 Manchester United (Semi-Final)
    7. Aalborg 0 - 3 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    8. Celtic 1 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    9. Villarreal 0 - 0 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    10.Inter Milan 0 - 0 Manchester United (Last 16)
    11.Porto 0 - 1 Manchester United (Quarter-Final)
    12.Arsenal 1 - 3 Manchester United (Semi-Final)
    13.Besiktas 0 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    14.CSKA Moscow 0 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    15.Wolfsburg 1 - 3 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    16.AC Milan 2 - 3 Manchester United (Last 16)
    17.Bayern Munich 2 - 1 Manchester United (Quarter-Final)
    18.Valencia 0 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    19.Bursaspor 0 - 3 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    20.Rangers 0 - 1 Manchester United (Group Stage)
    21.Marseille 0 - 0 Manchester United (Last 16)
    22.Chelsea 0 - 1 Manchester United (Quarter Final)
    23.Schalke 0 - 2 Manchester United (Semi-Final)

    And these were the previous 19 games

    Milan 3-0 - Lost
    Roma 2-1 - Lost
    Lille 1-0 - Won
    Celtic 1-0 - Lost
    Copenhagen 1-0 - Lost
    Benfica 1-0 - Won
    Benfica 2-1 - Lost
    Lille 1-0 - Lost
    Villareal 0-0 - Draw
    Milan 1-0 - Lost
    Fenerbache 3-0 - Lost
    Sparta Prague 0-0 - Draw
    Lyon 2-2 - Draw
    Porto 2-1 - Lost
    Panathinaikos 1-0 - Won
    Rangers 1-0 - Won
    Stuttgart 2-1 - Lost
    Madrid 3-1 - Lost
    Deportivo 2-0 - Lost

    During that period I daresay we were the best team away from home in CL history. We got to the 2011 Final without conceeding a goal away from home.
  40. Apr 5, 2018
    #39

    Giggs86 Full Member

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    He's nothing but a Pochettino with an unlimited checkbook.
  41. Apr 5, 2018
    #40

    fcbforever New Member

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    It’s so funny that I got slammed for saying this on this forum for the past years, especially by his Bayern fanboys, yet it’s suddenly exposed to the world. He’s a brilliant coach, but he lacks pragmatism.