Phil Jones

[Brwned]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

He does make some great runs from midfield too. Was involved in one of our two best chances in either half with a great overlapping run on the right and a near-perfect cross to Anderson in the first half and then that counter-attack when he overhit the cross for van Persie. The cross was poor but the run was typically purposeful, he showed great pace to race in behind and on another day he'd had picked out van Persie in a classic United counter-attacking goal. Shame he made a mistake for another goal in another big game though.

 

[Feed Me]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

The three at the back idea would save us the headache of having to pick our favoured two out of the three. But it'd represent a major step change, tactically, for United. It's more likely that one of the three will become a utility player and pick up games in a variety of positions, ala O'Shea.

 

[Livvie]

I like Phil Jones. He's one of those players that you get an instinct about - in his case, a positive one.

 

[Ash_G]

I thought he was good when he had the tactical role of holding in front of the defence. He played it well, picked out some nice passes and when he broke it was at appropriate times. When we went to more of a 442 and he was allowed more freedom that's when I thought it was more of an issue. He showed that with more time he could be a good option in that holding role. There is potential for him in that role, no doubt about that. But that's why I don't get the use of him further up the pitch. How he started the game made perfect sense, but games where he ends up ahead of the other midfielders just doesn't seem to work the well for me.

 

[Eyepopper]

He's as good as any 21 year old CB playing in midfield would be.

He can put in a shift there with the right set up but long terms he's not going to be a midfielder.

As for yesterday I didn't think he was noticeably worse than Cleverly or Ando, I thought he was as good if not better than them which is a far greater concern seeing as they're both actual midfielders.

 

[wonnie]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

He does make some great runs from midfield too. Was involved in one of our two best chances in either half with a great overlapping run on the right and a near-perfect cross to Anderson in the first half and then that counter-attack when he overhit the cross for van Persie. The cross was poor but the run was typically purposeful, he showed great pace to race in behind and on another day he'd had picked out van Persie in a classic United counter-attacking goal. Shame he made a mistake for another goal in another big game though.

Don't think it would happen while Fergie is in charge. I mean Smalling and Evans may play in the back 4 and Jones as a DM but IMO it won't appear to be like a pronounced back three with Jones stepping up as you've stated.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

I thought it was arguably his best midfield performance so far. Definitely passed the ball better than in any other game.

 

[shaggy]

I thought he was good when he had the tactical role of holding in front of the defence. He played it well, picked out some nice passes and when he broke it was at appropriate times. When we went to more of a 442 and he was allowed more freedom that's when I thought it was more of an issue. He showed that with more time he could be a good option in that holding role. There is potential for him in that role, no doubt about that. But that's why I don't get the use of him further up the pitch. How he started the game made perfect sense, but games where he ends up ahead of the other midfielders just doesn't seem to work the well for me.

Agree with this. Holding in front of the defence - fine. Playing as an attacking midfielder - doesn't work.

 

[Cevno]

I think lack of creativity from CM and Wide right was a bigger problem yesterday than control of the game or lack of protection at the back. So jones did the job he was asked to pretty decently.

One thing he can imrprove is to get involved more and be better off the ball in CM to receive the ball from another player. His positioning is a bit weird sometimes and he as a result only gets involved on the ball fleetingly in eye catching bursts.

 

[Ekeke]

He showed some pretty good passes at times. A couple of his ground passes were weighted really nicely and reminded me of Carrick

Unfortunately like normal, despite being a defender playing in midfield he didnt get through a huge amount of defensive work which continues to surprise. Its probably because he doesnt hold his role and protect the defence, instead hes running into space to receive passes and get forward

 

[noodlehair]

He's not a midfielder, and I don't get what anyone sees in his performances there. There's nothing to suggest he'll be a good midfielder or knows how to play there..

All well and good saying he had a 90% pass completion rate...Meanwhile Chelsea controlled the midfield for the entire game and kept finding themselves running in at our back four.

What was he supposed to be doing? Dictating the midfield or sitting off and protecting the defence? Because whichever one it was, it wasn't happening very much. Not that the other two were up to much but I could at least figurew out what it was they were meant to be doing.

I want him to get more games at centreback rather than risking ruining his development by using him as a false stop gap for shortcomings in other areas.

 

[Amar__]

I didn't like him yesterday. I don't think he won possesion once in first half, and If I remember well in those 45 minutes he lost possession 3 times in dangerous areas(yeah he slipped once, but even if he didn't you need to have better control of the ball in centre of the pitch).

I liked him in midfield against Chelsea earlier this year(particulary in the first half, later he was shifted at RB if I remember well), but I don't think he was impressive yesterday at all.

In his defence, both Ando and Cleverley aren't clearly in their best form, and I don't need to mention Valencia, so it's not probably easy to play with them either.

He can be used there as he proved couple of times, but he also proved he can be pointless there.

 

[LR7]

He's not a midfielder, and I don't get what anyone sees in his performances there. There's nothing to suggest he'll be a good midfielder or knows how to play there..

All well and good saying he had a 90% pass completion rate...Meanwhile Chelsea controlled the midfield for the entire game and kept finding themselves running in at our back four.

What was he supposed to be doing? Dictating the midfield or sitting off and protecting the defence? Because whichever one it was, it wasn't happening very much. Not that the other two were up to much but I could at least figurew out what it was they were meant to be doing.

I want him to get more games at centreback rather than risking ruining his development by using him as a false stop gap for shortcomings in other areas.

Agree with this. He plays an a centre back in midfield but with less positional restraints so he's often everywhere. I think he can be an excellent centre back rather than just being able to 'do a job' in CM.

 

[noodlehair]

I'm convinced people are just seeing what they want to see whenever he plays there.

He offers nothing to suggest he can play in that role. He's not comfortable taking the ball from the back four and teams just press on to them as a result. Going forwards he's too erratic and really poor positionally, despite the fact he's always charging aroung. At best he can do a Darren Fletcher style 3rd man/mark an opponent job, and he'd possibly end up better at it than Fletcher, but it'd be a potentially massive waste of talent.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He is learning on the job. But he shouldn't be. He shouldn't have to play in midfield at a all.

 

[wonnie]

I'm convinced people are just seeing what they want to see whenever he plays there.

He offers nothing to suggest he can play in that role. He's not comfortable taking the ball from the back four and teams just press on to them as a result. Going forwards he's too erratic and really poor positionally, despite the fact he's always charging aroung. At best he can do a Darren Fletcher style 3rd man/mark an opponent job, and he'd possibly end up better at it than Fletcher, but it'd be a potentially massive waste of talent.

Tbh I think that is exactly what Fergie sees in Jones at CM at the moment. Obviously Fletcher is not available and no one else in the squad can replicate that role for us.

Despite Fergie saying numerous times there is no room for a 'limited' defensive minded midfield player in the modern game, he continues to favour the likes of Fletcher/Hargreaves/Anderson in his midfield who brings battling qualities for certain games.

 

[Cina]

I'm convinced people are just seeing what they want to see whenever he plays there.

Me too.

And in their eyes, anyone who thinks Jones shouldn't be playing in midfield is only saying that because they want him to fail there so that we'll buy ourselves another midfielder.

He said himself to Sky yesterday that he has always modelled his game on players like Ferdinand and Terry, and sees himself as a center back long term, which is why I don't get how people can still argue the idea of him being a midfielder instead, when he's clearly got the ability in him to be one of the best center backs in the world.

It's weird that some people are so desperate for him to succeed in midfield, because I think it's blatantly obvious that in five years we have two potentially different players at our disposal, a great center back, or a decent/good midfielder. I'd pick the former, personally.

 

[poisson]

I really hope for his sake that SAF stops playing him in midfield. This is like Alan Smith all over again - just because a player seems 'tough' doesnt mean he's meant to play in the middle of the park. I mean ffs we're Manchester United, we should be playing genuine midfielders with real quality in midfield, not make shift players.

This is in no way a dig at Jones, who I believe will flourish at CB. Its not his fault that he's been asked to play in a wrong position.

 

[gza the genius]

I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

So no Rafael then?

 

[Bross]

You'd have spent the weekend comfort eating, so.

One thing I like about Jones in midfield is the timing of his runs into the box. That's a really hard skill to learn but seems to come naturally to him. Every time he starts in a midfield two, he looks a goal threat. Much prefer him in that position to the aimless wandering around you see when he's paired with two other CMs.

His runs into space are good and he has good energy, he could be good as a third midfielder, sort of like Fletcher but with more offensive ability. But he doesnt have the proper awareness and positioning sense to be part of a solid midfield duo (unless that other player is Carrick, but he just seems to elevate whomever he plays next to far above their normal level).

WHy do you have to write pathetic shit like that first comment anyway. No idea how you won poster of the year if you have always been such a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime.

 

[KingEric7]

He's not comfortable taking the ball from the back four and teams just press on to them as a result.

This is the key thing. In a sense I feel that people are a little guilty of looking at what a player is doing well instead of considering his overall impact on the team. Talk of passing completion, tackles, etc whilst relevant is not really painting the full picture in regards to the issue with Phil Jones in midfield. Our team already has problems with control so sticking players in midfield that are hugely lacking in the positional department is visibly damaging.

I'm not going to write him off as a midfielder, mind. I've swung back and forth like a pendulum when it comes to how Phil Jones' career will turn out so I'll just wait and see. At this moment in time though, his movement whilst we are in possession is not good enough for him to be part of a top class midfield (not unless the other two midfielders are absolutely top draw at least, and I say 2 midfielders here because playing Jones consistently as part of a duo is clearly a nightmare waiting to happen). We've gotten away with things like playing John O'Shea in midfield for extended periods in the past but it does seem like this team has to have everything pretty much spot on in a tactical sense for it to work.

 

[pocco]

In his ability, he's good for a CB but below average for a midfielder. Thats how I see it.

 

[Rood]

against Chelsea Jones actually played quite a different midfield role than he has recently - he was essentially filling in for Carrick as the most defensive midfielder with Cleverley and Anderson ahead of him.
So not only is he switching between defence and midfield, he is also being tried in different types of midfield role - not easy to adapt like that every game so he is being forced to learn quickly.

 

[Devil may care]

He was better than Anderson and Cleverley yesterday I felt but he's so erratic, like a baby bull in a China shop, I really hope he's not seen as anything other than a CB who can do a marking job in CM now and then like Pepe.

 

[Rozay]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

He does make some great runs from midfield too. Was involved in one of our two best chances in either half with a great overlapping run on the right and a near-perfect cross to Anderson in the first half and then that counter-attack when he overhit the cross for van Persie. The cross was poor but the run was typically purposeful, he showed great pace to race in behind and on another day he'd had picked out van Persie in a classic United counter-attacking goal. Shame he made a mistake for another goal in another big game though.

I'm not convinced myself. That said, I am more than convinced by him as a centre-half nowadays. I think he should begin the season in the first-team in this role and see how far he goes.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Did everyone think he was a bit rubbish in midfield again then? I think he's been picking things up here and there and he's getting more and more confident on the ball. It's the second time in a month he's had over 90% pass completion against Chelsea and his passing's become increasingly assured, and overall I think we've been hard to break down with him in midfield. I can actually see him playing that Busquets centre mid/centre back hybrid role now. I don't think it's that outrageous to think long-term we're preparing Smalling and Jones for some variation of a back three. Evans has already played left back and his passing's really improved so he's comfortable there. Smalling's played a lot at right back and hopefully we'll see his passing similarly improve and Jones is at the heart of it with him stepping forward into midfield when possible.

He does make some great runs from midfield too. Was involved in one of our two best chances in either half with a great overlapping run on the right and a near-perfect cross to Anderson in the first half and then that counter-attack when he overhit the cross for van Persie. The cross was poor but the run was typically purposeful, he showed great pace to race in behind and on another day he'd had picked out van Persie in a classic United counter-attacking goal. Shame he made a mistake for another goal in another big game though.

I agree completely with what you are saying and the main problem is that we need a set out tactic to really use a player like Phil Jones in the middle. He is perfect for the "Busquets role" like you say, a lone DM who releases the defensive burden slightly more on the other 2 CM's.

What you are saying makes a lot of sense, that we can't just disregard his qualities as a defender, I think they should be an important part in how his role is determined to be. The classic version when you have a player like Jones is either to play a 3 man defensive line(Smalling, Vidic, Evans) with Jones as a libero/holding midfielder or what is more likely to play extremely offensive wing-backs on both ends and let Jones take the wing-backs "low position" instead.

The way he is used now just seems very odd and it must be to teach him some lessons in passing under pressure etc(which he has done brilliantly). Right now he is playing as a CM and if he is supposed to go forward we just expose his own weakness as then we might as well play Cleverley/Anderson/Kagawa instead.

I think we have a very good team to use Jones in that second style, with offensive wing-backs on both sides. It would mean we were still playing wide regardless of a possibly more narrow formation otherwise. It is also not a big difference from what we are already playing and have played in the past.

Having Smalling, Evans and Jones back for the counter is incredible stable compared to Smalling/Evans/Evra especially considering Evans has experience as a LB and Smalling as a RB which is incredibly important against counters.

 

[pablotatt]

Too good to drop. That creates a bit of an issue.

 

[friendlytramp]

-----smalling-----evans------
--------------jones------------
Rafael--------------------fabio
------cleverley----Rooney------
--ronaldo------------kagawa--
---------------rvp--------------

 

[Brophs]

He said it himself in his pre-match interview. He needs to "quicken up his feet" when he plays in midfield. That won't happen overnight. I'm still not absolutely convinced that the role doesn't ask a lot of him in terms of the things he's perhaps not so good at, but he's learning quickly, so you never know.

 

[Rozay]

I don't want him to get lost in trying to learn multiple roles. I really want him to nail down a position, allowing him a better chance of excelling in it.

 

[Platato]

It's not the worst thing for Jones' development but my concern is we're not really moving the team forward with this Jones in midfield experiment. I don't mind being proved wrong but despite Jones being described as a quick learner, I'm not convinced this is the right move.

 

[Ruud10]

Yes, Jones is a natural CB but I've got no problem at all trying him out as a defensive mid, especially when Carrick sits out a game. But long term, he's a CB.

 

[beergod]

I think him playing in midfield isn't good for team but is good for his personal development. He looks more composed on the ball when playing out of the back than he did last season I think his time in midfield has greatly contributed to that improvement.

I'm hoping he will be used only as a centerback as Rio is phased out and only rarely used at RB or in midfield.

 

[Grinner]

Wenger could probably turn him into a decent MF. It's probably why he was after him.

 

[Amir]

I think he could develop into a really good midfield player, but he'll need to play regularly there. I don't think he will and I actually don't think we can afford the price our football will have to play.

Right now he can do a job, especially if there's a specific one. Like handling Fellaini against Everton. But if we're not looking to stifle someone then there's not that much to be gained by playing Jones there. our game flow is not be the same with him in the middle.

 

[Ash_G]

Tbh I think that is exactly what Fergie sees in Jones at CM at the moment. Obviously Fletcher is not available and no one else in the squad can replicate that role for us.

Despite Fergie saying numerous times there is no room for a 'limited' defensive minded midfield player in the modern game, he continues to favour the likes of Fletcher/Hargreaves/Anderson in his midfield who brings battling qualities for certain games.

Tbh I think the Fletcher role is something Jones doesn't seem to be able to do properly. Whenever he's allowed to play box to box he seemingly goes awol completely ending up ahead of the more natural attacking player. It's only when he's given a set job, i.e. man marking someone or being a d/m as against chelsea in first half that he shows discipline. That's an aspect of Fletchers game people seem to underestimate. He wasn't just running up and down the pitch, he hassled smartly, knowing when to drop in, when to press and when to try and advance, Jones doesn't seem to be able to do that when given more license to roam. He might get it one day but not yet imo.

 

[Andrew~]

He's getting better at playing in midfield, and if the coaches focus on teaching him positioning and get him more used to reading the game from a midfielder's perspective, I don't see why he can't be good there.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Wenger could probably turn him into a decent MF. It's probably why he was after him.

Or maybe he wanted him as a defender considering yours aren't very good.

 

[wonnie]

Tbh I think the Fletcher role is something Jones doesn't seem to be able to do properly. Whenever he's allowed to play box to box he seemingly goes awol completely ending up ahead of the more natural attacking player. It's only when he's given a set job, i.e. man marking someone or being a d/m as against chelsea in first half that he shows discipline. That's an aspect of Fletchers game people seem to underestimate. He wasn't just running up and down the pitch, he hassled smartly, knowing when to drop in, when to press and when to try and advance, Jones doesn't seem to be able to do that when given more license to roam. He might get it one day but not yet imo.

Yea, my point is he is the closest in terms of replicating the Fletcher role in the squad. Obviously, he is not 100% at it and hence you've got people complaining on here etc.

I'm sure Fergie sees Jones' long term future at CB and his stint in CM is purely for stop gap purposes in terms of what the squad doesn't have.

 

[Grinner]

Or maybe he wanted him as a defender considering yours aren't very good.

Really? Maybe you should take a look at the goals conceded before making a cnut of yourself.