Players of the past: Juan Veron

Just was never going to work with Keane, both wanted to be the one to receive the ball from the defence.

Had he stuck around, it could have worked, Scholes and Keane were rotated around, Scholes' eye injury, Keane left not long after Veron did. Having Veron, Scholes, Carrick and Fletcher as a rotating cast with Giggs able to play centrally at times would have been wonderful to watch around that time.
 
Like I've said before he arrived to a team where the core didn't wanted to be altered and adding more or less the same type of player already there, BTW people should remind that he came from a Serie A where frantic do not describe how at times stupidly back and forth was the predominant style, it's not that.

But leaving the overbooking in United aside, HE ALSO CHANGED before arriving.
He was never the more dinamic Veron of his previous years till his first season in Lazio (see the vid of his WC98). He still oozed class, but from United till his last days in Italy, he was a diff player.
Less of the box to box classic 8 of the past combine with CM tasks, to become a lot more of a strolling fella, even if he was still very good and at times great, he is no real 10 a la Zidane or Riquelme if it comes to play a game where you have to put a pistol on the head to steal the ball from them.

The funny thing it's that when really old, coming back to the Argie League he realizaed that Estudiantes needed more of vintage Veron, to be more comitted, more agressive to get things done and he kind of roll back years and played really great for them. The way he carried them to a Libertadores and that Final against Barca was sthg. and gave a proper top end to his carreer.
 
SAF initially tried to bring in Veira but that was never going to happen. Then we tried to make a move for Zidane but he was out of our price range and was far more eager to join Madrid.
Then Veron came on the market and we made the move, having been cleared of reportedly using false documents in acquiring a Italian passport.

In retrospect Nedved should've been the player brought in as he was more versatile and equally as talented.
Unfortunately, in the same summer, he was Zidane's replacement at Juve.
 
Last edited:
Similar to Pogba, will look good on a highlight reel. Some beautiful long passes, good strikes etc. Never had the discipline to succeed here. I think the Premier League was too fast paced for him and the amount of goals we conceded from him giving the ball away in dangerous areas, especially in the first season was too much.

Was much better in Serie A when there's less pressure on the ball. He was actually a lot better for us in the Champions League where he had more space. Nicky Butt suited us more towards the end of his second season and him and Keane allowed Scholes to drift forward off Ruud. Some of our best ever football for me that.
 
Funnily enough I think he did alright in our european games, would be remembered more fondly if we had gone past leverkusen.
 
Veron had major problems with regard to having no role here, especially compared to his Lazio self who dictated play and was allowed to roam as he saw fit.

Roy Keane dominated passing stats for United during his time from captain to his hip giving out. That meant everyone else followed his beat and his rhythm. For Veron that was a serious problem because all the things he was used to doing were now gone because it was always Keane that the team deferred to in the same way Lazio’s lot did for Veron. On top of that, Beckham took the set plays and dictated the long passes and Scholes occupied the offensive areas Veron was accustomed to charging into, further to this, the pace of the PL wasn’t kind to him. All of this combined meant Veron often looked like the odd man out, trying to fit in where he could. Veron had no idea how to play second fiddle in midfield - going from being the man and a star of Serie A to a bit part player in England was a massive disappointment to witness.

Incidentally, he looked better in the CL because the pace of the game was more considered and we also played a more tactical game where Veron had an important function - that of being better able to triangulate passes and control the pace of the game between three players in the middle of the pitch, pretty much the opposite of what was asked of him in the PL of that time.

I think it’s a great shame it didn’t work out. Veron was an incredible player, but a nomad here. Any time outside of a Keane dominant midfield, and Veron would have had a better time of it. Unfortunately, Keane >* so it was a case of right player at the wrong time.
 
Had moments of pure class. I'm sure he was player of the month in his first month here?
 
Fortitude said:
Veron had major problems with regard to having no role here, especially compared to his Lazio self who dictated play and was allowed to roam as he saw fit.

Roy Keane dominated passing stats for United during his time from captain to his hip giving out. That meant everyone else followed his beat and his rhythm. For Veron that was a serious problem because all the things he was used to doing were now gone because it was always Keane that the team deferred to in the same way Lazio’s lot did for Veron. On top of that, Beckham took the set plays and dictated the long passes and Scholes occupied the offensive areas Veron was accustomed to charging into, further to this, the pace of the PL wasn’t kind to him. All of this combined meant Veron often looked like the odd man out, trying to fit in where he could. Veron had no idea how to play second fiddle in midfield - going from being the man and a star of Serie A to a bit part player in England was a massive disappointment to witness.

Incidentally, he looked better in the CL because the pace of the game was more considered and we also played a more tactical game where Veron had an important function - that of being better able to triangulate passes and control the pace of the game between three players in the middle of the pitch, pretty much the opposite of what was asked of him in the PL of that time.

I think it’s a great shame it didn’t work out. Veron was an incredible player, but a nomad here. Any time outside of a Keane dominant midfield, and Veron would have had a better time of it. Unfortunately, Keane >* so it was a case of right player at the wrong time.
Click to expand...

It's not a question of pace of the League, it's a question of strategy. Like you've said in the post Fort, if you are used as a second fiddle player, or even third, that at the same time is asked to do tasks that he does not feel entirely and do not want to shake too much the status quo, you'll get disoriented of when to go, when to stay and such, that will affect your game. The pace of the game, in this case more related to the style of United of constant charging and long balls but without him at the centre of it, would only make that stuff become worse

Saying that, what yes it's a question of more than pace, ATTITUDE, it's that the Veron that arrived to United, was already a lot more strolling alike, tad too cocky on his 10 status in Italy and didn't decided within himself if he was going to be that in a team that didn't have (nor willing to make) space for it and in the meantime at times trying to show that he was comitted to mark and such.

Also remember that Italy in those days was al about being frantic, put the ball far from your net, "create" a mistake and go pressing like loonies to overcome the rival by numbers. So it's not sthg that Veron wasn't used to, or sthg that the "older" Veron would not just thrive if he kept being a more box to box alike fella like he started.
 
Fobal said:
It's not a question of pace of the League, it's a question of strategy. Like you've said in the post Fort, if you are used as a second fiddle player, or even third, that at the same time is asked to do tasks that he does not feel entirely and do not want to shake too much the status quo, you'll get disoriented of when to go, when to stay and such, that will affect your game. The pace of the game, in this case more related to the style of United of constant charging and long balls but without him at the centre of it, would only make that stuff become worse

Saying that, what yes it's a question of more than pace, ATTITUDE, it's that the Veron that arrived to United, was already a lot more strolling alike, tad too cocky on his 10 status in Italy and didn't decided within himself if he was going to be that in a team that didn't have (nor willing to make) space for it and in the meantime at times trying to show that he was comitted to mark and such.

Also remember that Italy in those days was al about being frantic, put the ball far from your net, "create" a mistake and go pressing like loonies to overcome the rival by numbers. So it's not sthg that Veron wasn't used to, or sthg that the "older" Veron would not just thrive if he kept being a more box to box alike fella like he started.
Click to expand...
The faster a game is played, the more automations are relied upon and the more you need to know your role and what you can and can’t do in the reduced thinking time. Because we never provided him with a role, he never forged the assimilated identity of his teammates. You can have the best, most willing attitude in the world, but if you’re on the outside looking in, you will be a step or two delayed and out of sync with what is happening around you. Veron would often look lost in the team in the PL whilst being an actual stand out performer in it when in Europe, the difference being we actively sought him out and played a considerably slower game in Europe, as well as the opposition not looking to close us down with the same intensity and perhaps naivety.

I think the attitude you refer to wasn’t as much of a factor at United, as Veron quietly and patiently tried to settle and even deferred to Keane when his ego might otherwise have said feck that, I’m a star, too!.

If Keane hadn’t have been here then, I don’t think the exact same Veron’s time in the PL plays out badly.
 
Fortitude said:
The faster a game is played, the more automations are relied upon and the more you need to know your role and what you can and can’t do in the reduced thinking time. Because we never provided him with a role, he never forged the assimilated identity of his teammates. You can have the best, most willing attitude in the world, but if you’re on the outside looking in, you will be a step or two delayed and out of sync with what is happening around you. Veron would often look lost in the team in the PL whilst being an actual stand out performer in it when in Europe, the difference being we actively sought him out and played a considerably slower game in Europe, as well as the opposition not looking to close us down with the same intensity and perhaps naivety.

I think the attitude you refer to wasn’t as much of a factor at United, as Veron quietly and patiently tried to settle and even deferred to Keane when his ego might otherwise have said feck that, I’m a star, too!.

If Keane hadn’t have been here then, I don’t think the exact same Veron’s time in the PL plays out badly.
Click to expand...

I wasn't as clear as I should with me talking about attitude, I didn't mean it in terms of hard work, or predisposition to do what he was asked, etc.

Veron in those days thought of himself as a 10, sthg that even capable of doing it, it wasn't his best suit. A classic dinamic box to box 8, combining with moments of a more controlling CM/10 alike, was his best suit, but he already wasn't that player when he arrived.
The main issue it's that the 10 role has an attitude that comes with it.

So if you want to be that fella, in a team already settle, with more or less similar players, that do not embrace a more classic 10 role, you better go there and impose yourself, or go back to your older self and be a more dinamic player for the new team, anything on between with all those similar players around ina new team, would create issues.

BTW Veron as a 10 worked in Italy, mostly because of precisly the frantic pace of those days, there was no real hard backlash if your long ball didn't end well, the ball would return inmediatly (like in England), Veron needed pace around to be a 10, same thing with the Argie NT and the frantic Bielsa approach, that's why Bielsa never used Riquelme or not fully embrace Aimar.
This approach that he shared with Totti, made Bianchi as Totti's coach clash like hell, no matter the superb quality of the Italian.

So basicly he could pull out that 10 role, because there was no real inclination of playing with more pause, of more ball retention, etc atributes that a Zidane, Riquelme, would be more suitable in a more clasic approach for the role, or even a Redondo as that rare beast CM wiith 10 alike atributes.

When he neither embrace either of those two main approaches, didn't wanted to impose, didn't go back to his more 8 alike periods and Fergie didn't impose him either, happened what you said at times (I think that also it's a tad overblown that he was bad, he wasn't as good as in prevous stages, neither he was as good when back to Italy, the strolling Veron was there for good). He was there floating with no real role and in the meantime confusing also Scholes for instance of what to do and both overlaping and creating at times defensive issues.
 
Both him and Berbatov were two indulgent signings I thought, brought into winning teams but weren't really needed and didn't mesh with the players already set in stone for years there. Worked out better for Berbatov in the end than Veron. Veron wasn't really a United style player at that time, as was said he needed a team built around him and should have been when you're paying that price. But it was never going to happen when we already had Keane, Scholes, Beckham, Giggs etc.
 
Fobal said:
I wasn't as clear as I should with me talking about attitude, I didn't mean it in terms of hard work, or predisposition to do what he was asked, etc.

Veron in those days thought of himself as a 10, sthg that even capable of doing it, it wasn't his best suit. A classic dinamic box to box 8, combining with moments of a more controlling CM/10 alike, was his best suit, but he already wasn't that player when he arrived.
The main issue it's that the 10 role has an attitude that comes with it.

So if you want to be that fella, in a team already settle, with more or less similar players, that do not embrace a more classic 10 role, you better go there and impose yourself, or go back to your older self and be a more dinamic player for the new team, anything on between with all those similar players around ina new team, would create issues.

BTW Veron as a 10 worked in Italy, mostly because of precisly the frantic pace of those days, there was no real hard backlash if your long ball didn't end well, the ball would return inmediatly (like in England), Veron needed pace around to be a 10, same thing with the Argie NT and the frantic Bielsa approach, that's why Bielsa never used Riquelme or not fully embrace Aimar.
This approach that he shared with Totti, made Bianchi as Totti's coach clash like hell, no matter the superb quality of the Italian.

So basicly he could pull out that 10 role, because there was no real inclination of playing with more pause, of more ball retention, etc atributes that a Zidane, Riquelme, would be more suitable in a more clasic approach for the role, or even a Redondo as that rare beast CM wiith 10 alike atributes.

When he neither embrace either of those two main approaches, didn't wanted to impose, didn't go back to his more 8 alike periods and Fergie didn't impose him either, happened what you said at times (I think that also it's a tad overblown that he was bad, he wasn't as good as in prevous stages, neither he was as good when back to Italy, the strolling Veron was there for good). He was there floating with no real role and in the meantime confusing also Scholes for instance of what to do and both overlaping and creating at times defensive issues.
Click to expand...
The problem with what you’re saying here is there wouldn’t have been such disparity between PL and CL Veron if it was all on him. He was stepping on Keane’s toes here the most because Keane was doing the things Veron was accustomed to doing, particularly taking the ball off the backline and using it in midfield. Obviously without that option in his new team, he was often a passenger watching other players executing the parts of his old job (Keane, Beckham and Scholes), so no matter where he floated in the PL, he was more of an annoyance than a necessary component in the way we were playing our football. As I said before, contrast this to how we played in the CL, and “suddenly” Veron had a very important function and looked a lot better because of it, which is why you generally have a two-tier Veron narrative in discussions about his time here.

The restrictions placed on his movement and ball usage absolutely killed him in the PL. From a United perspective, I didn’t see a tortured #10 being prevented from doing his thing; I saw a midfielder who was not able to play his natural game.
 
I was on the Old Trafford tour the day he signed. He walked out on the field and we all cheered. Three titles in a row, him and Ruud joining, what could possibly go wrong for a record breaking 4th?
 
Fortitude said:
The problem with what you’re saying here is there wouldn’t have been such disparity between PL and CL Veron if it was all on him. He was stepping on Keane’s toes here the most because Keane was doing the things Veron was accustomed to doing, particularly taking the ball off the backline and using it in midfield. Obviously without that option in his new team, he was often a passenger watching other players executing the parts of his old job (Keane, Beckham and Scholes), so no matter where he floated in the PL, he was more of an annoyance than a necessary component in the way we were playing our football. As I said before, contrast this to how we played in the CL, and “suddenly” Veron had a very important function and looked a lot better because of it, which is why you generally have a two-tier Veron narrative in discussions about his time here.

The restrictions placed on his movement and ball usage absolutely killed him in the PL. From a United perspective, I didn’t see a tortured #10 being prevented from doing his thing; I saw a midfielder who was not able to play his natural game.
Click to expand...

I'm clearly not making myself clear.
There is no problem with what I'm saying Fort, I'm just adding another layer that you are not that familiar with, his shift in terms of style of play that affeted not only his United stage, his late Italian years and in the NT. He went from dinamic box to box, to some sort of fancy 10, to a streolling CM, of course exaggerating that predominance on all of those peridos just to make a point.

We are actually saying the same thing about his issues in United, but the basis of the disfunction it's not pace, it's role and lack of a diff attitude from him to grab the situation by the neck. Also I'm not implying that he was a tortured 10 not being allowed to be, I'm saying the contrair, that at that stage he believed he was a proper 10 without actually being such player in my opnion. So if he didn't impose, by character and later by his game per se to claim such role or at least the main CM, he would suffer the stuff both are talking about. His other choice was to go back to his younger days 8 type of style, that frankly I dunno if it still in him even.
 
Used to love watching him ping balls about and trap everything stone dead in the warm ups.

Was jaw dropping stuff.

A proper footballer.
 
Unfortunately he was at us in wrong time and generation I suppose

The premiership wasn’t as technical and brute strength and toughness was valued a bit more. Also for him to successful he has to be in possession of the ball a lot but with Keane there wasn’t gonna be enough.

I believe if he was playing nowawdays he would breeze the premiership and would be considered a great
 
berbasloth4 said:
Unfortunately he was at us in wrong time and generation I suppose

The premiership wasn’t as technical and brute strength and toughness was valued a bit more. Also for him to successful he has to be in possession of the ball a lot but with Keane there wasn’t gonna be enough.

I believe if he was playing nowawdays he would breeze the premiership and would be considered a great
Click to expand...
I'm not sure he would todaytbh, it's much the same about brute strength and speed in midfield, just imagining Veron in Ten Hag's midfield for United or at times under Amorim if you consider the abuse Casemiro got for being slow off the mark. The best PL era for him was probably the post-Guardiola tika-taka boom in the early 2010s where you had an ageing Scholes pinging passes around and managers like Rodgers boasting about having 65% possession stats.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I'm not sure he would todaytbh, it's much the same about brute strength and speed in midfield, just imagining Veron in Ten Hag's midfield for United or at times under Amorim if you consider the abuse Casemiro got for being slow off the mark. The best PL era for him was probably the post-Guardiola tika-taka boom in the early 2010s where you had an ageing Scholes pinging passes around and managers like Rodgers boasting about having 65% possession stats.
Click to expand...
I know it slightly out of timeframe but I would imagine he would be floating round in a kdb style. A lot more time on the ball and a lot more protection from tackles etc be too easy for him
 
I often think he would have been great in the post Keane era. Him, Carrick and Scholes would have been a sublime midfield 3.
 
His goal against Olympiacos and his assist for Beckham’s chip against Birmingham are amongst my favourite aesthetic moments of that era. Plus his goal against Arsenal & last minute assist for Forlans winner against Chelsea were huge moments in the title race that season… As disappointing as he ultimately was, I’ll take those as very fond memories thankyou.

Also scored the winner in the “lads, it’s Spurs” game. Would probably be a cult hero these days.
 
Decent squad player for us and that was about it.
Had good technique but was not up to English club football, Flattered to deceive on occasion.
 
I’m not great at the specifics but I do remember a big European night and everyone was injured or banned. We played Veron and Phil Neville in central midfield and no one thought we had a prayer. Those two played the game of their lives, totally bossed it and we won
 
His passing in the champions league was something else. He didnt do well in the league because we didn't understand how someone of his style played and also the pace of the league was tough for him.
 
surf said:
I was on the Old Trafford tour the day he signed. He walked out on the field and we all cheered. Three titles in a row, him and Ruud joining, what could possibly go wrong for a record breaking 4th?
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, despite our issues with Veron/formation, etc, we might have won that 4th if we hadn't fecked up our defence (and had issues with Barthez) that season as well.
 
Far Canal said:
I’m not great at the specifics but I do remember a big European night and everyone was injured or banned. We played Veron and Phil Neville in central midfield and no one thought we had a prayer. Those two played the game of their lives, totally bossed it and we won
Click to expand...
I think that was Arsenal at home in the league. We won 2-0 in the 2002/2003 season. Think Neville was man of the match and Veron scored the first goal. It actually kickstarted that season because we started the season pretty badly.
 
Amir said:
Funnily enough, despite our issues with Veron/formation, etc, we might have won that 4th if we hadn't fecked up our defence (and had issues with Barthez) that season as well.
Click to expand...
Yep, had we Stam instead of Blanc then the team would have looked more solid
 
I’m fairly certain he scored a goal in pre-season training that Fergie and several of the players said was the best goal they’ve ever seen. A 25 yard volleyed rabona, I believe.
 
surf said:
I was on the Old Trafford tour the day he signed. He walked out on the field and we all cheered. Three titles in a row, him and Ruud joining, what could possibly go wrong for a record breaking 4th?
Click to expand...
Fabian Barthez and selling Stam.
 
dcrompton said:
I said it at the time and I stick by that we signed the wrong player from Lazio. Should have signed Nedved, who went to Juventus,instead. Veron could only play centre-mid so broke the Keane-Scholes axis and didn’t really offer much flexibility, whereas Nedved could have covered any of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs or played as a 10 behind RVN.
Click to expand...
Good point.Nedved was a class player.Always wanted us to sign him.
I remember being delighted when we signed Veron though as anytime I had seen him for Argentina he looked the part.
As many others have said he just wasn't the right fit for that United team.
 
Lay said:
Had moments of pure class. I'm sure he was player of the month in his first month here?
Click to expand...

Wouldn't surprise me - we obviously already had an incredible midfield, and Scholes will always be my favourite player, but for about the first 3 or 4 games of the season Veron looked a class above if I remember correctly. There were murmurings of him being player of the year after those first few games. Downhill from there though, sadly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.