Playing in an attacking/modern style of football exposes who isn’t good enough to play for United

[kouroux]

Well to be fair France aren’t overtly attacking under Deschamps (plus he takes a back seat in light of Mbappe and Griezmann) and with Juve - he played in a counter attacking pragmatic balanced set up.

This could be the first side where he plays for a side committed to all out attack, which I think suits him very well.

I don't think we'll ever be committed to all out attack.

 

[Raees]

I don't think we'll ever be committed to all out attack.

Depends on what you mean by all out attack - for me teams like Liverpool and City pretty much are all out attack as in they want to dominate games and go for the jugular albeit Liverpool have become more conservative compared to last season whereas Spurs are a touch more pragmatic and industrious but even they are quite attacking.

Arsenal are full out attack under Emery but I hope we fall into the Arsenal, Liverpool and City style of football rather than Spurs. I want us to be one of the most aesthetically pleasing sides in Europe as I think that will provide the basis to become one of the leading sides in Europe once again.

 

[haram]

It took you that long to realise how talented Pogba was? Also, you are making a lot of conclusions from a very small sample size.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Agreed with the majority of it, except probably Mata. He can be a very effective rotation player. When playing through the middle and linking with pogba/rashford/herrera he can do a serious amount of damage.

Lukaku is a strange one.. I would love to see the lukaku we had end of last season before he got injured again.. he was immense. But under jose he was woeful,and i mean really bad, and doesnt seem to be as reviatlised as some of the others, his touch and control is just awful at times. Although he somehow still puts the ball away in the net, i cant see him lasting too long if he doesnt change.

For me Matic has barely put a foot wrong since Ole has come in.. Which is mad because under Jose he was dreadful. Only thing has really changed is that hes sticking to playing that line in front of the back 4 and not venturing too far past that. If thats what hes good at, keep him doing that.

Jones has looked alright under Ole, but I agree is is a liability/ complete hand grenade. not good enough to be starting.

Ole's style so far is doing exactly what a good coach should be doing.. enhancing the skills of good players. There will eventually deadwood that needs getting rid of, and it will become more apparent and clear before the end of the season.

 

[cyberman]

They press all the time. Possession game does not work without pressing.

They don't. Their numbers are way down.
Its why their attack looks a little less than last season, they're not winning the ball as high up anymore

 

[cyberman]

Both these sides literally just pressed against each other the other day with all of us watching.

Liverpool press less than last season it’s true but to say they don’t press at all is a nonsense and especially the bit about City.

They don't press any more than top sides of the past do. I read they were 9th in some sort of pressing stats list in December ffs.
They've given up pressing for control, they don't chase games anymore so don't try to press as high so to leave space behind them if the opposition can sidestep the pressure.
Klopp himself had addressed this.
Modern way of playing is just a buzz phrase

 

[JPRouve]

They don't press any more than top sides of the past do. I read they were 9th in some sort of pressing stats list in December ffs.
They've given up pressing for control, they don't chase games anymore so don't try to press as high so to leave space behind them if the opposition can sidestep the pressure.
Klopp himself had addressed this.
Modern way of playing is just a buzz phrase

Can you point me toward that pressing stat, that's an interesting concept?

 

[cyberman]

Can you point me toward that pressing stat, that's an interesting concept?

I remember seeing it in a few articles but I can only see references to OPTA when trying to search it for you.
I'm guessing it can be found there but I have no idea how to navigate it.

Liverpool only rank joint-ninth in the Opta pressing stats this term with Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham leading the way.

It just stuck out in my head when reading it. Like knowing we run less than any other side in the league.

 

[JPRouve]

I remember seeing it in a few articles but I can only see references to OPTA when trying to search it for you.
I'm guessing it can be found there but I have no idea how to navigate it.

Liverpool only rank joint-ninth in the Opta pressing stats this term with Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham leading the way.

It just stuck out in my head when reading it. Like knowing we run less than any other side in the league.

Thanks. I found what I was looking for, “The percentage of new open play possessions for the opposition in which they don't complete three passes in a row (and don't get off a shot or cross).”, that's apparently the definition used for pressing rate. To me that definition doesn't really isolate what we see as pressing, you can press and force the opposition into making more than three passes around their box, you can play against teams that will have a direct style and will lose possession on long or through balls before 3 passes, there is also different type of pressings, in different areas.

I'm fine with the arbitrary nature of that rate but at the very least if they choose to use this type of definition, they should limit it to a certain area of the field, like the opposing third or half, otherwise the stat becomes visibly ridiculous, in my opinion.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

Phil Jones isn't a bad passer of the ball. He had better stats than Lindelöf against Newcastle.
I don't believe we'll see McTominay in our squad in 2021. I don't believe Fellaini can expect the same amount of playtime under a new manager (or under Ole), as he got under Moyes and Mourinho. Valencia and Young ain't getting younger (phun indeed).
I've lost faith in Darmian long time ago.
Wonder how Rojo will fit in under Solskjaer, if he'll come back before Solskjaer is out again.

When was the last time rojo played? He never seems to be fit...

 

[kouroux]

Depends on what you mean by all out attack - for me teams like Liverpool and City pretty much are all out attack as in they want to dominate games and go for the jugular albeit Liverpool have become more conservative compared to last season whereas Spurs are a touch more pragmatic and industrious but even they are quite attacking.

Arsenal are full out attack under Emery but I hope we fall into the Arsenal, Liverpool and City style of football rather than Spurs. I want us to be one of the most aesthetically pleasing sides in Europe as I think that will provide the basis to become one of the leading sides in Europe once again.

We have the same definition more or less and I don't think we'll emulate that kinda football long term. At least not without a few tweaks in the team

 

[DSG]

I remember seeing it in a few articles but I can only see references to OPTA when trying to search it for you.
I'm guessing it can be found there but I have no idea how to navigate it.

Liverpool only rank joint-ninth in the Opta pressing stats this term with Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham leading the way.

It just stuck out in my head when reading it. Like knowing we run less than any other side in the league.

That is interesting. I would guess when you are up 3-0, there isn’t much need to press. Do they control for that scenario? I do think when you watch the games, they are clearly high pressing.

In my original post, I intentionally put “modern football” in quotes, meaning, it’s a term that is thrown around way too often, and doesn’t really mean anything. Agree with you in that sense.

However, I disagree with your point that Klopp’s high press isn’t new. His entire team is set up to press and counter. Possession teams like Guardiola’s press high but only to either win the ball back or foul to delay the game and allow his defense to set up properly. Guardiola wants numbers advantage with possession (leaving him vulnerable at the back). Klopp doesn’t care about numbers, he wants to attack quickly before the defense is organized.

At the end of the day, most great clubs will win, no matter the tactics. Hell, Real just won 4 of 5 CLs basically playing classic counter attacking football.

 

[Foxbatt]

How do you play Mata, Rashford and Lingaard together? Mata is not good enough to play in midfield. Mata is not good enough to replace any forwards and the only option for him is on the right and that is why when he plays he plays there. He is not good enough to play there. If Sanchez can play on the right then the team picks itself on its own.

 

[noodlehair]

I’ve felt for a long time that under Mourinho and the previous incumbents that it was sometimes hard to tell who wasn’t quite up to the task and who was.

We had very gifted players like Pogba looking like half the player, someone like Rashford trying to take the world and his dog on by holding on to the ball too long and being too greedy due to lack of runners around him and on the other side we had guys like Fellaini who looked effective whenever they were coming on the pitch compared to say a Herrera and likewise Smalling looked a lot more integral than a Lindelof. Also difficult to tell if De Gea had it in him to distribute the ball like a modern keeper or if it suited him to just punt it out at first sign of press.

Even players like Luke Shaw - we just assumed that he’s a natually gifted attacking left back whose dodgy defensively based on what was being fed to us by manager and it was hard to tell if he was being restricted. Lukaku was both at home yet also strangely a ill fit under Jose - difficult to tell if he suited United or not.

Put simply under Ole’s brief tenure - I’ve learnt that Pogba is a baller and looks so at home in a fluid attacking system, Rashford is without doubt a talented footballer and will use his team mates if he has options, Lindelof does have ball playing ability to a high level, Jones is a donkey of epic proportions and will be making lots of errors in a passing from the back system, Shaw is actually a better defender than he is going forwards (so he was an ideal Jose full back all along it seems), Valencia and Young are holding us back and it is difficult to picture a long term vision with Lukaku playing up front as a starter if United are going to be top dogs again. Mata has been exposed as simply not good enough to be a first teamer even in a attacking system, Herrera looks class and Matic whilst he does play more progressive under Ole looks as though he lacks the legs to be able to anchor this side consistently without making clumsy passes under pressure.

Still early days but I feel we are in a better place now to judge by end of season what we exactly need and who isn’t quite suited to playing for us and vice versa. Do you guys agree?

I kind of agree but I also think we knew all of these things under Mourinho. Pogba is the only one who has looked a different player, but he's had short runs of playing very well before, so we have to see if he can do it consistently.

Rashford we know is talented but is young so inconsistency is inevitable, again he's had really good runs of form in the past. Lindelof I think has looked a lot better this season even before Jose was sent packing. Jones has always been a fumbling oaf. Fellaini may look effective from time to time but whenever Jose has tried to integrate him into the team properly he's looked our of his depth and doesnt seem to understabd how to stay in a position.

I think the difference isn't so much being able to tell who is good enough, it's having a manager who is willing to play certain players to their strengths rather than turn us into a really expensive version of a Tony Pulis team. I don't think we'll get any massive surprises in terms of who is and isn't good enough.

The two players I'm hoping we'll see a lot more from are Martial and Sanchez, as I think having the ball at their feet in the opposition half 50 times a game rather than 4 will give them a much better platform, but again in terms of pure ability we already know they have it.

 

[Foxbatt]

It was pathetic to see all the 10 players just standing in our own half trying to defend. I mean conceding possession and also position. This is not Manchester United. We got stuffed by City by 6 goals to 2 if I remember correctly but we were still attacking and trying to score. That is why we conceded 6 goals after being a man down. That is Manchester United.

 

[Kostov]

Young, Valencia, Mata and Lingard players coming to mind at first. None of them is good enough to start if we are to play quality attacking football.

 

[AgentP]

Looks like things are getting pretty apparent as to who are actually good players and who are just squad players. It took Ole hardly 6 games to figure out our best XI.

De Gea
Young - Lindelof - Jones - Shaw
Matic
Herrera - - Pogba
Lingard - Rashford - Martial
​

Other players that could possibly get into this team are Smalling and Sanchez. Players worth having on the bench are Lukaku, Fred, Dalot and Bailly. That's it. The rest are just not good enough. Even in this squad, only the players in bold are irreplaceable. The rest of the players can be improved upon.

 

[mark_a]

I'm unsure of about the Mata hate. He lacks pace, but surely he more than makes up for that in footballing intelligence, movement & motivation. Plus he can actually take set pieces. There's been games where he's been one of the few players looking to make runs & get into space & look for a pass. Now that everything has changed (!) I'm not sure that everyone else playing a lot better & with more freedom necessarily pushes Mata to the "Get rid" pile.

Added to that, there's a fair few ahead of him that do need to be moved on more urgently