Would not fancy any of their players to win anything in the air.
Playing out from the back...
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Yeah but at least they wouldn't be doing anything fancy. Just have to get up there and win the balls and Brexit it
I thought De Gea dealt with this really well in the Southampton game. Early on he saw that Southampton were a threat with their press so he started kicking long. I’m fairly sure it lead to our goal.
Basically I’m in favour of playing out when the opportunity is there but if the opposition are pressing effectively then use your brain. I hate seeing footballers stick to instructions instead of thinking on the pitch.
I also think the new rule around the goal kick not needing to leave the penalty box to be in play has made it harder to play out rather than easier which I think it was intended to do.
Basically I’m in favour of playing out when the opportunity is there but if the opposition are pressing effectively then use your brain. I hate seeing footballers stick to instructions instead of thinking on the pitch.
I also think the new rule around the goal kick not needing to leave the penalty box to be in play has made it harder to play out rather than easier which I think it was intended to do.
They'll compete for the second ball.
One of the most mental fads to ever catch on in football. The new rule just allows a keeper to get on with it and not having to clear the box of his players, there is absolutely no benefit in playing the ball to a team mate who is 6 yards away and likely to be closed down instantly.
Doing it to a player further put on the 18 is fine as a mistake is less catastrophic and your centre halves can split the entire width of the box with a third guy coming centrally.
Insanity.
Doing it to a player further put on the 18 is fine as a mistake is less catastrophic and your centre halves can split the entire width of the box with a third guy coming centrally.
Insanity.
You can't get better at playing through the press if at the sight of a well organized press you shit your pants and hoof the ball ffs.
As to why teams persist with it despite the occasional feckups? It helps you generate chances more instead of hoping to get lucky off of second balls or flick ons.
This is what someone like Sam Allardyce would say.
I couldn't agree more. There is nothing wrong with building from the back, but to the extremes that some teams are trying to do it is ridiculous. Especially with the new goal kick rule. I have already seen on several occassions where teams put themself in trouble needlessly because they do a 2 yard goal kick pass with a bunch of players hovering around the 18. Why take the goal kick short if the opponent isn't giving you room to do it? Makes no sense. Arsenal got caught today with this exact same kind of stupidity. I like having defenders who can control a ball, and a keeper who you aren't afraid to pass it back to, but as you put it, playing from the back is one of the more overrated recent fads in the game which needlessly puts teams in trouble...
Of course you need good footballers if you are going to build from the back. But if you concede 3-4 goals a season from it, should you really abandon it? Not for me. Building from the back helps you maintain possession and if you have a competent manager, he should be able to turn the possession into goals and ultimately over the course of the season you would be in net positive goal-wise.
If you conceed 3 from it all season while scoring more and dominating the game then its tradeoff worth doing
It is all about common sense and mixing it up. Yesterday wasn't a surprise, Watford tried it several times in the game before scoring.
A balance needs to be met
I would have thought my issues with this have been explained throughout the thread tbh. Anyway, if not - I will stress again that I don’t believe the net gain is important enough to offset the risk involved.
I want to know what it is about having footballers play the ball out the back that rubs you the wrong way.
City and Arsenal both dropped points this weekend as a result of this. Even if their defenders were not robbed where they were, what would they have achieved?
Possession.
Aguero, Sterling and Bernado are hardly going to win long ball headers from goal kick and it concedes possession.
We've gone back and forth on this so I'm not challenging you on the basis of the argument. To each his own and all.
But surely you must admit your post, where you do admit that City do this in general, yet still say it is unneeded, is a bit funny? They are the clearest example of why it is not a flairy tactic but a very important one, and if done very well it takes your team to a higher level from the perspective of creating chances.
Jesus.
#Jesus.
City won the League with 98 points last season, 32 wins out of 38 matches, 4 losses and 2 draws. Season before that they won the league with 100 points, 32 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses.
Lose against Norwich and it's "Why do they bother playing the way they do"
#Mohammed
Jesus.
#Jesus.
City won the League with 98 points last season, 32 wins out of 38 matches, 4 losses and 2 draws. Season before that they won the league with 100 points, 32 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses.
Lose against Norwich and it's "Why do they bother playing the way they do"
This thread was created long before the lost to Norwich.
This thread discussed many other teams than Manchester City. They are not the only team in the world.
#Mohammed
This thread was created long before the lost to Norwich.
This thread discussed many other teams than Manchester City. They are not the only team in the world.
I don't think it's bad thing the new rule, but what's full on stupid is Otamendi not expecting to be pressed and Sokratis thinking there's no way that pass could have gone wrong. If either of them had not been so lax, Otamendi would have played it back straight away to Ederson and Sokratis would have just booted it and apologised after. Percentage play clearly matters when you're in your own box.
Otamendi has done it many times without issue. If it wasn't worth the occasional SNAFU then Pep would have binned it a long time ago. There's something he and other top managers are seeing that the Caf isn't, obviously.
Yeah the pay off is good when you have the right players, but it's clearly the personnel in these two instances. Otamendi was lax and Sokratis strength is not making risky/difficult passing.
What I don’t get is why the defender still stands 4-5 yards away from the goal kick giving the striker time to close down when the ball is passed.
Why not stand 1 yard away from the keeper and take the pass giving you more time to see what’s coming. Or even stand behind the six yard box line to the side so you are at least facing play....
Why not stand 1 yard away from the keeper and take the pass giving you more time to see what’s coming. Or even stand behind the six yard box line to the side so you are at least facing play....
It's hardly complicated, For good teams that are comfortable with the ball it's a calculated risk with plenty of factors to be taken into account. Just a few: Playing out from behind tempts the opposition to push forward and leave space that can be exploited, alternatively the opposition sit back and wait, which opens up for the cb to advance with the ball. It allows them to control possession, instead of punting the ball forward and hoping to win the first and second duel. Obviously it requires a lot more from the team, but asking why City and other top teams do it is somewhat bizarre as they've clearly shown the success that potentially comes with it when the quality is good enough.
And yet John Stones is quoted as saying that one of the things Pep taught him was when to simply clear the ball into the stands.
Context is key and if you defenders have failed a couple of times in a game the being pragmatic isn’t a sin. Keep working on the training ground until it’s game ready.
You skipped over the part where I said Otamendi has played many games for City, doing the same passes without issue.
I've not watched enough of Sokratis to know his strengths, but for a team like Arsenal, do they have the personnel who would benefit off of a hoof and fight for second balls approach? Maybe Emery thinks it's worth it in the long run.
That makes no sense. Otherwise teams would just come out of the training ground with tactics perfected. There is nothing like a live game where stakes matter to really hone a skill set.
And with regards to that Stones quote, I refer you to the 4-0 drubbing that City received in the first season, where Guardiola doubled down on his methods, when everyone was asking him to, as you say, "be more pragmatic". They've reaped the rewards of sticking to it through the kinks.
I skipped over it because it doesn't matter. This was clearly human error, not due to playing out from the back, in the box. I think there is a middle ground between playing in your box or more centrally, than just hoofing it. That why usually CBs pushed to the wings before this rule came in and the CM drops deep to receive it centrally.
how not? If a player does something right 99% of the time and fecks up 1% of the time, how is that an indictment on what he is doing?I don't really understand your point, are you saying it's not Otamendi's fault because usually this doesn't happen? The overall idea of playing out from the back is fine, but now they're allowed in the box, the probability of errors leading to goals has dramatically increased, due to personnel you use to implement the style.
Of course it's his fault, he fecked up. Doesn't mean he should dramatically change his approach.
There will be some adaptation due to the new rules but you're overestimating the impact they will have on goals conceded. Even before the rule change City have played passes within the box all the time.
I was never arguing that! He should simply have more awareness if they are going to play closer to the goal now. If he did that where he would have received the ball before - wide of the box, this wouldn't have happened. Likewise with Sokratis. He either needs to improve his passing or not take as risky passes. These players aren't adapting to the increased danger with the new rule. I'm sure if you're an xG person, gaining possession closer to the goal, would increase the likelihood of a goal. The chance of dispossession doesn't increase, but the likelihood of that leading to a goal does.Tweet
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Hoof it la', you don't have the players for it
If Guardiola loses the league this season by Liverpool who like to hoof it, will that mean that our resident Pep lovers will admit that not everything Pep insists on is modern trend that is supposed to be only way of playing football?
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Love that, especially after all the shite carragher and the rest gave after the first match.
It was clear from that game they'd give a lot of teams a real problem this year, Liverpool just put them to the sword like they have done many others. On a different day they could have won that match with better defending.
It just shows you don't need 200m worth of talent to play nice football.
you are 2 goals down and insist on playing from the back with the risk of losing the title challenge. I think City committed a huge mistake in the game against Norwich. It could've easily been avoided and they could've walked out with a point and the streak would continue. Losing Laporte is another hit for them, which probably was the reason for such a mistake.
Playing from the back is a good idea only and only if you are completely confident it can be easily carried to the forward line. Some of the teams need to know when to play from the back and when not. Hoofing the ball and winning the second ball is not a bad strategy but even so we need a strong number 9 and quick midfielders to get to the second ball.
Playing from the back is a good idea only and only if you are completely confident it can be easily carried to the forward line. Some of the teams need to know when to play from the back and when not. Hoofing the ball and winning the second ball is not a bad strategy but even so we need a strong number 9 and quick midfielders to get to the second ball.
City get away with it a lot because many teams are too scared shitless to press. When they are pressed, goals like the one on Saturday are a greater risk. You are asking the players who by definition, should be the worst technically in your team, to pass the ball around the last line of their defence under pressure. This week alone I’ve seen 3 goals conceded and that’s just in the games I watched. England, City and Arsenal. I could have told you that you don’t want Michael fecking Keane, Otamendi or Sokratis taking such risk. They are not the players to do it. None of them could dream of playing central midfield.
As said by @Lash, there is middle ground I think. Play it wide to the full back at least, or have Xhaka drop and collect it. I do appreciate that hoofing will likely cede possession, although I believe possession is likely to be ceded at some point regardless. The chances of you passing the ball the entire length of the field is very slim. Even if they don’t take it off your defenders, they will take it off a midfielder or forward. I think you are more likely to make it to the opponents goal in free play when you recover possession in the final third. Passing it from goalkeeper to centre forward is rare, and if you fail at GK or CB stage, you will often concede yourself.
The Chelsea match this week was a good example of it not necessarily being an asset. Time after time they passed it back, passed it forward, and lost the ball about where they passed it back. It’s great when City does it and it’s lost on a cross in the final third. But when all you’re doing is losing possession about where you had the ball in the first place you wonder what the point is.
As overall standard of Footballers keep going up with advancement of the of training, nurturing systems and technology its only reasonable to expect even centerbacks to be able to create and even dribble a little from the back. Hey we were okay when they asked forwards to be defensive and fullbacks to play like wingers.
Its only evolution of the game. It's all good.
Its only evolution of the game. It's all good.
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For your second paragraph.. The stats will improve as the cb partnership understands their game, weakness and will begin to compliment one another. Vida and rio wasn't doing so well from day one either.
They've diced open better teams that dared to press them (Arsenal, Tottenham, Napoli come to mind). Most teams don't bother pressing City at the back because it leaves gaps City will gladly exploit. Very few teams (only Liverpool comes to mind) know how to press them in such a way that produces results. Which is why Pep went uber conservative at Anfield last season (still passing the ball, but the midfielders/full backs brought out the ball, not the CBs). City and their defense just had a bad day.
Why should CBs be the worst technically? If they are by far, then yeah, this probably won't work. But why should elite teams, and teams aspiring to be elite, persist with the antiquated notion of having 2 brutes at CB? They should also be capable of defending of course, but that's not an either or. Many defenders from the past were adept at all phases of the game.
I can't speak for Keane or Sokratis, but I'm not sure how many times I've had to say that Otamendi usually is fine making such passes. A few mistakes doesn't negate the norm. And there is nothing wrong with taking a long term approach towards helping your team out by teaching your CBs to be more proactive with the ball.
Norwich City, in the tweet I posted, had no issue with generating promising plays based on playing out of the back. So very few teams have any excuse for not getting better at it. Again, I'm not sure why this specific way of playing has been flagged as problematic based on nothing but anecdotal evidence. I've seen many teams park the bus and hoof it out. And concede a feck ton of goals. Given England's usual aversion to anything "fancy", I have an idea as to why such approaches don't get half the flack something simple as passing out the back under pressure gets.
It's only 5 games into a new season. Talk of ceding the title challenge is premature. Besides, why would they abandon an approach that has aided them in winning the past 2 titles with an average point total of 100?
Regarding City and Arsenal, their midfielders and attackers are smaller sized and all. They are more likely to lose the battle of the second ball against bigger sides.
Literally about to post this for the dinosaurs to watch.
Norwich sure showed up City for trying to play out from the back by, err, playing out from the back.