Pochettino sack watch | PSG Manager

KingCavani

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So? It's PSG, not stinkonia city. The front 3 that doesn't press is messi-neymar-mbappé

if they won't press, then don't press. Adapt. That's your fecking job
He has adapted, they are just getting overrun because they essentially play with 10 men when Messi's on the pitch.

He has to get out of there. They're not gonna do what he wants and his reputation is going to tank as people attribute their long running issues to him.

It was absolutely absurd to hire a manager who's staple has been the distance his teams cover, and then give him those players. It was stupid of Pochettino to take the job, I think he was probably insecure about the idea that he didn't have a trophy and seen PSG as a quick fix to that. It has backfired spectacularly.
 

VP89

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So? It's PSG, not stinkonia city. The front 3 that doesn't press is messi-neymar-mbappé

if they won't press, then don't press. Adapt. That's your fecking job
He has adapted. He plays on the breakaway and is doing his "fecking job" by bettering City on aggregate (who are a better team on paper and listen to their manager) and being 11 pts clear in the league.

It becomes daft when people want control against the elite sides when the front 2 dont help the team. This isnt FIFA. One of the best CL winners in recent times was Liverpool and hardly any player was regarded as balon dor at the time.

Its not just a case of "blargh you have neymar mbappe messi, win and dominate everything". It is on FIFA but not in practise. For anyone.
 

giorno

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That. But beyond that Neymar and Di Maria press, so what was the excuse last season when they were as disjointed? The clue is, the other players, the ones that people who don't watch PSG can't name and are struggling.
For me the starkest moment of Pochettino not doing a good enough job was the second half against City from last season. Guardiola sold out to stop Neymar and suddenly a team with Verratti, Mbappé, Marquinhos, Paredes and Di Maria couldn't figure out how to bring the ball out of their half...
 

Chesterlestreet

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if they won't press, then don't press. Adapt. That's your fecking job
Easier said than done, of course - but essentially, yes. If you can't make them press as much you'd ideally like, then you have to find some other way to maximize their potential (which, needless to say, is huge). Or - you have to drop one or two of 'em. Again, it's not easy - but there you go.

Two things may be said here:

1) If Poch decided to drop any of those players - and things worked out brilliantly...then I refuse to believe that someone above him in the hierarchy would start meddling.

2) He must have been aware of the Galactico nature of that team before he decided to take the job.
 

giorno

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How can you, though? You have 3 players that won't defend at all. Yes they're great players. But how can you control a game against (for instance) City , Chelsea or Liverpool when they have 10 players working hard against your 7? You're going to lose every time. The actual answer is "make those players work hard TOO" but if they don't want to do that, well.
Why do you need to control games to win? They literally beat City 2 months ago!

And 3 players who won't defend at all? Well getting them to defend is part of your fecking job! Neymar had no trouble defending with Luis Enrique and Tuchel!
 

Ayoba

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I've always been of the opinion that Poch is a very good manager but had my doubts as to whether he was an elite manager! I think he is tier 3 good and the question remains, has he done enough to step up to the next tier? I can't answer that as I don't watch PSG regularly, so lets see how well he does in the CL and Ligue 1.

Tier 1:
Klopp
Pep
Conte


Tier 2:
Simeone
Zidane
Tuchel
Mancini
Flick

Tier 3:
Poch
Nangelsmann (lets see how he does with Bayern this season)

ps - this isn't an exhaustive list but more to illustrate the point I was trying to make with Poch.
 

Sayros

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He has adapted. He plays on the breakaway and is doing his "fecking job" by bettering City on aggregate (who are a better team on paper and listen to their manager) and being 11 pts clear in the league.

It becomes daft when people want control against the elite sides when the front 2 dont help the team. This isnt FIFA. One of the best CL winners in recent times was Liverpool and hardly any player was regarded as balon dor at the time.

Its not just a case of "blargh you have neymar mbappe messi, win and dominate everything". It is on FIFA but not in practise. For anyone.
That would be a fine point if RC Lens didn't look like City at times against PSG last game. I mean to even try mentioning bettering City on aggregate when you watch the games is....bizarre. They were leagues behind City, and they're not looking any better against Ligue 1 sides they should be pummeling.
 

cyberman

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They cant aim dominate against the likes of City or Bayern, and then have 2 or more passengers in the game off the ball. This comes down to silly expectations of owners rather than Poch. We all know Poch wants his players to press from the front. His Southampton and Spurs side did this very well for the majority of his time. Coincidentally star players at PSG who have big egos and dont like working off the ball under other managers, are suddenly doing the same under Poch. He has obviously had to therefore adapt to pragmatism. Its the only way really when you have a couple players who wont work hard unless they are on a breakaway.

PSG is a poisned chalice. Its silly to judge any manager from it. The owners pressure on who to start and Leo buys who he wants and says deal with it. And if a manager has a problem thats basically a countdown to his sacking. See how Tuchel ended, he basically said in his own way that this is a broken system and Leo is a loose cannon. Leo then marked him for the sack and it was only a matter of time. When Tuchel slipped to 3rd or so, even though the league was salvageable, he was still sacked. This is not the way to work with managers. Any manager is always looking over their shoulder.

It wouldn't work for the best of established managers let alone a high potential younger manager like Poch.
I dunno. I can’t see why PSG can’t dominate like City and Bayern can, that’s down to management since it’s not personnel. Hell even in France they aren’t dominating games and there’s no excuses for that. I have a theory that Poch press and working hard isn’t as impressive as it once was. You can track Spurs fall with smaller teams learning how to pass the ball out from the back and pressing themselves so Poch went from pressuring players average on the ball to having to be smart about pressing triggers etc and couldn’t do it and the fact is he hasn’t done it.
it’s his actual tactics being called into question now and that should raise major red flags
 

Forevergiggs1

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So people are still ignoring facts, making up things and ignoring the fact that PSG issue is with their non attacking players? We are stuck in a loop...
As it stands do you think any manager in world football could come in and get PSG playing to their full potential or is the job as poisoned chalice as it looks from the outside?
 

#07

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People who've seen my posts in this thread know I'm a Poch skeptic.

When it looked like we might seriously be considering Brentan to replace Ole, I put my Poch skepticism aside. However, having appointed Rangnick the equation has changed for me. Not just because Brentan at United is now looking a distant possibility (thank God). Also because Rangnick, IMO, is a superior coach to Pochettino.

Unlike some, I'm not going to dismiss the difficulties Pochettino is having in marshalling the PSG dressing room. Football is more complicated than just having outrageously gifted attackers and just letting them do stuff. This is real life not PlayStation. However, man for man, pound for pound, do I think Pochettino is a better coach than Rangnick? No. I don't.

Pochettino is not bad coach. He's actually a very, very good coach. However, if we appointed Pochettino, do I think Klopp would give a two minute answer on how a good coach was coming to the Premier League and it was bad news for everyone else? No. I don't. I don't believe Pochettino is that level of coach.

For me, if/when we replace Rangnick we have to be getting an upgrade. Pochettino is not an upgrade on Rangnick. IMO he's at best a sideways move.

As it stands do you think any manager in world football could come in and get PSG playing to their full potential or is the job as poisoned chalice as it looks from the outside?
Luis Enrique would be able to replicate what he did with Messi, Neymar and Suarez with Messi, Neymar and Mbappe. Luis Enrique is, however, in my opinion, an elite coach whereas Pochettino is a very good coach but not a great one.
 

giorno

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As it stands do you think any manager in world football could come in and get PSG playing to their full potential or is the job as poisoned chalice as it looks from the outside?
Donnarumma/Keylor-Hakimi-Marquinhos-Kimpembe-Mendes/Bernat-Paredes/Herrera-Wijnaldum/Gueye-Verratti-Messi/Di Maria-Mbappé-Neymar/Di Maria ?

Any one of Zidane, Guardiola, Klopp, Allegri, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Luis Enrique has them as favourites to win CL
 

jackal&hyde

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I dunno. I can’t see why PSG can’t dominate like City and Bayern can, that’s down to management since it’s not personnel. Hell even in France they aren’t dominating games and there’s no excuses for that. I have a theory that Poch press and working hard isn’t as impressive as it once was. You can track Spurs fall with smaller teams learning how to pass the ball out from the back and pressing themselves so Poch went from pressuring players average on the ball to having to be smart about pressing triggers etc and couldn’t do it and the fact is he hasn’t done it.
it’s his actual tactics being called into question now and that should raise major red flags
I have the same impression.
 

BerryBerryShrew

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I dunno. I can’t see why PSG can’t dominate like City and Bayern can, that’s down to management since it’s not personnel. Hell even in France they aren’t dominating games and there’s no excuses for that. I have a theory that Poch press and working hard isn’t as impressive as it once was. You can track Spurs fall with smaller teams learning how to pass the ball out from the back and pressing themselves so Poch went from pressuring players average on the ball to having to be smart about pressing triggers etc and couldn’t do it and the fact is he hasn’t done it.
it’s his actual tactics being called into question now and that should raise major red flags
This. He was an early adopter of the pressing game and benefited from it but now most of the teams in the PL are better at pressing than his early Spurs team ever was.
 

Sviken

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I share the opinion of everyone else here. I think Poch is a decent coach, good even, will probably make us a solid top 4 side with the occasional cup and what not, but I do not believe he is the one to take us forward. Obviously, PSG is a circus and it'll be stupid to hold everything that happens there against him, but at the same time he is not doing himself any favors in things he should have control over. Really Ten Hag should be our one and only target. Of course, interview other top candidates, but to me there is no argument as to who can really take us there with Pep and Klopp, especially given that both are leaving the league soon and we need to capitalize on this chance. Even if Ten Hag fails, (no manager is guaranteed anything), at least we tried to go back to the top and compete. With Poch it's us simply accepting years of mediocrity again until the inevitable fallout.
 

Adnan

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Pochettino is failing at the deep build up phase against teams with much inferior players. And that can't be excused with the players he has at his disposal.

I'm gonna say what many of our fans said in the last few months, 'don't judge the PSG players until they get a top class head coach'
 

jackal&hyde

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Pochettino is failing at the deep build up phase against teams with much inferior players. And that can't be excused with the players he has at his disposal.

I'm gonna say what many of our fans said in the last few months, 'don't judge the PSG players until they get a top class head coach'
They were significantly better under Tuchel at the deep build up weren't they?
 

JPRouve

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As it stands do you think any manager in world football could come in and get PSG playing to their full potential or is the job as poisoned chalice as it looks from the outside?
I don't know how to answer your question because I don't know what you understand by full potential but no the job isn't a poisoned chalice. First people need to seriously remember that high press and full field press isn't a magical recipe for success and isn't something that you have to do in Football, this idea is getting tiresome because we are turning Football conversation into genuinely stupid arguments, secondly people need to stop imagining things when it comes to players actual profiles.

I quickly mentioned it with @Oly Francis and I'm sure that @Sayros spotted it too. Some of the solutions for Pochettino have already been found by Tuchel two years ago, you have the option of playing in 3412/343 or a 4222 but unlike two years ago they have the CMs/DMs for that and shouldn't have to use Marquinhos in midfield though it wouldn't be a bad idea to try it since he is a better passer than most while also being more disruptive in midfield. They should use a low block and mainly rely on fast breaks because their midfield isn't built for possession.

Now there is third option that is based on Riquelme's profile at Villarreal. PSG could play in 4231/4312 with Messi playing the Riquelme role, you put Verratti and Marquinhos in midfield, Neymar and Di Maria on the wings and Mbappé ready to run or you use Wijnaldum-Verrati-Gueye in the flat midfield three. You don't use a high press, but a short time press and retreat, similar to what many teams do.

There are many options that are balanced and take into account the profile of the players they have, the issue is when managers have blinkers and can only see what they want to see. It's one of the reasons I really like Tuchel, he is willing to try everything, he sees a problem and tries to fix it.
 

Adnan

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They were significantly better under Tuchel at the deep build up weren't they?
Yes they were from the games I watched. I'm not sure why people seem to ignore the issues in the build up phase. He's doing a poor job at PSG and the struggles are evident even against the smaller French clubs.
 

horsechoker

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I've always been of the opinion that Poch is a very good manager but had my doubts as to whether he was an elite manager! I think he is tier 3 good and the question remains, has he done enough to step up to the next tier? I can't answer that as I don't watch PSG regularly, so lets see how well he does in the CL and Ligue 1.

Tier 1:
Klopp
Pep
Conte


Tier 2:
Simeone
Zidane
Tuchel
Mancini
Flick

Tier 3:
Poch
Nangelsmann (lets see how he does with Bayern this season)

ps - this isn't an exhaustive list but more to illustrate the point I was trying to make with Poch.
Why is Conte tier 1 despite an abysmal continental record
 

VP89

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That would be a fine point if RC Lens didn't look like City at times against PSG last game. I mean to even try mentioning bettering City on aggregate when you watch the games is....bizarre. They were leagues behind City, and they're not looking any better against Ligue 1 sides they should be pummeling.
So they had off games in the league. Do you not recall Peps City being hit for 5 last season to Leicester?

And what do you expect vs City? More control? Good luck with those players. No manager is saving them.
 

AjaxCunian

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So they had off games in the league. Do you not recall Peps City being hit for 5 last season to Leicester?

And what do you expect vs City? More control? Good luck with those players. No manager is saving them.
It isnt really having off games in the league, they are consistently poor in the league against far weaker teams.

Ultimately they have the quality or the opposition lacks to quality and they win majority of the games by small margins.

As a fan, if that's what you'd want, fair game ofcourse.

Also their performances vs Leipzig and Brugge were not great either.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Donnarumma/Keylor-Hakimi-Marquinhos-Kimpembe-Mendes/Bernat-Paredes/Herrera-Wijnaldum/Gueye-Verratti-Messi/Di Maria-Mbappé-Neymar/Di Maria ?

Any one of Zidane, Guardiola, Klopp, Allegri, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Luis Enrique has them as favourites to win CL
All would enter top 10 managers in world football of today and there's no doubting their pedigree but all seem to have the same characteristics. They need as much control in footballing matters as possible and I'm not sure they'd get that at PSG. Leonardo, at least from the outside seems to be a very hard person to work under and there's no denying the amount of power the actual players have at the club.

Tutchel would undeniable also enter in the top 10 but his quotes on leaving the club should set off a red light for any future managers when he said, "A club like PSG has many influences that go far beyond the interests of the team. I just love football and, in a club like here, it's not always about football."

For me Poch was on a hiding to nothing going to PSG and as much as I rate him I felt at the time he was making a big mistake going there. It never seemed like a good fit from day 1 even though I'd take him here in a heartbeat.

I don't know how to answer your question because I don't know what you understand by full potential but no the job isn't a poisoned chalice. First people need to seriously remember that high press and full field press isn't a magical recipe for success and isn't something that you have to do in Football, this idea is getting tiresome because we are turning Football conversation into genuinely stupid arguments, secondly people need to stop imagining things when it comes to players actual profiles.

I quickly mentioned it with @Oly Francis and I'm sure that @Sayros spotted it too. Some of the solutions for Pochettino have already been found by Tuchel two years ago, you have the option of playing in 3412/343 or a 4222 but unlike two years ago they have the CMs/DMs for that and shouldn't have to use Marquinhos in midfield though it wouldn't be a bad idea to try it since he is a better passer than most while also being more disruptive in midfield. They should use a low block and mainly rely on fast breaks because their midfield isn't built for possession.

Now there is third option that is based on Riquelme's profile at Villarreal. PSG could play in 4231/4312 with Messi playing the Riquelme role, you put Verratti and Marquinhos in midfield, Neymar and Di Maria on the wings and Mbappé ready to run or you use Wijnaldum-Verrati-Gueye in the flat midfield three. You don't use a high press, but a short time press and retreat, similar to what many teams do.

There are many options that are balanced and take into account the profile of the players they have, the issue is when managers have blinkers and can only see what they want to see. It's one of the reasons I really like Tuchel, he is willing to try everything, he sees a problem and tries to fix it.
Thanks for your detailed reply with a very interesting insight on the tactical side but I'm more focusing on what's happening behind the scenes rather than what's happening on the playing side. I do agree with you about Tutchel. He does seem a very adaptive manager which was why it was surprising when it eventually turned sour. We've seen it time and time again. If the players don't buy into the managers idea it's never going to work. Which brings me to my point, if a manager such as Tutchel can't make it work who can? Pep and Klopp (not that they'd ever manage PSG) are 2 of the best managers in the world but would the players buy into their way of thinking? For me Zidane would be one of the very few managers in the world to make it work being a god of French football and would give the players a lot more reign on the playing side than Pep or Klopp would but would he go there?
 

JPRouve

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Thanks for your detailed reply with a very interesting insight on the tactical side but I'm more focusing on what's happening behind the scenes rather than what's happening on the playing side. I do agree with you about Tutchel. He does seem a very adaptive manager which was why it was surprising when it eventually turned sour. We've seen it time and time again. If the players don't buy into the managers idea it's never going to work. Which brings me to my point, if a manager such as Tutchel can't make it work who can? Pep and Klopp (not that they'd ever manage PSG) are 2 of the best managers in the world but would the players buy into their way of thinking? For me Zidane would be one of the very few managers in the world to make it work being a god of French football and would give the players a lot more reign on the playing side than Pep or Klopp would but would he go there?
Tuchel issues had to do with his relationship with Leonardo and Tuchel is typically the kind of people that will have that type of issues, he did at Dortmund and is known to have a temper. He was upset about the lack of obsessions he had in particular when it came to midfielders and fullbacks. He decided to deal with it publically in press conferences and his relationship with both Antero Henrique and Leonardo soured.
 

Samid

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"I keep receiving information from Qatar that the Emir and his entourage are beginning to lose patience with Mauricio Pochettino. They don't like how PSG plays, their locker room management and the poor performance they get from Lionel Messi who they see misplaced."

He gone.
 

LawCharltonBest

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"I keep receiving information from Qatar that the Emir and his entourage are beginning to lose patience with Mauricio Pochettino. They don't like how PSG plays, their locker room management and the poor performance they get from Lionel Messi who they see misplaced."

He gone.
What’s the source?
 

Ayoba

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Why is Conte tier 1 despite an abysmal continental record
That's what you took from my post? Ok, i'll bite. A serial winner with multiple league titles with juve, chelsea and inter.

If all you're looking at is continental record (i'm presuming you mean the CL) - when was the last time pep won that competition?
 

giorno

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All would enter top 10 managers in world football of today and there's no doubting their pedigree but all seem to have the same characteristics. They need as much control in footballing matters as possible and I'm not sure they'd get that at PSG. Leonardo, at least from the outside seems to be a very hard person to work under and there's no denying the amount of power the actual players have at the club.
Guardiola started at Barcelona, then moved to Bayern. Klopp spent years at Dortmund and is now at Liverpool. Zidane only managed Real Madrid. Luis Enrique also barcelona. Tuchel actually had PSG a couple bounces and Neuer saves from winning the Champions League

PSG are neither unique nor special, and certainly far from the hardest job around

Tutchel would undeniable also enter in the top 10 but his quotes on leaving the club should set off a red light for any future managers when he said, "A club like PSG has many influences that go far beyond the interests of the team. I just love football and, in a club like here, it's not always about football."
You can take that quote verbatim about any of Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Didn't stop them from being the most successful clubs of this century...

For me Poch was on a hiding to nothing going to PSG and as much as I rate him I felt at the time he was making a big mistake going there. It never seemed like a good fit from day 1 even though I'd take him here in a heartbeat.
That's because Poch is likely a great manager but not one for every club

Which brings me to my point, if a manager such as Tutchel can't make it work who can?
Tuchel made it work just fine until he decided to get into a dick-measuring contest with his bosses
 

Hammondo

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So? It's PSG, not stinkonia city. The front 3 that doesn't press is messi-neymar-mbappé

if they won't press, then don't press. Adapt. That's your fecking job
That simply cannot work in modern football at a high level.
 

cyberman

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That simply cannot work in modern football at a high level.
That’s not true. Teams like Bayern and Madrid aren’t high pressing machines. You can work around it. You just need to know how.
This non pressing side reached a CL final months before Poch took charge
 

Hammondo

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That’s not true. Teams like Bayern and Madrid aren’t high pressing machines. You can work around it. You just need to know how.
This non pressing side reached a CL final months before Poch took charge
They do press though, just because they are not like Liverpool does not mean they do not press. No top team can have 3 front players who cannot press or do defensive work.
 

JPRouve

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That’s not true. Teams like Bayern and Madrid aren’t high pressing machines. You can work around it. You just need to know how.
This non pressing side reached a CL final months before Poch took charge
You are right but even then I have a question. This year according to Fbref which team has more pressures between Chelsea, Liverpool and PSG?
 

cyberman

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They do press though, just because they are not like Liverpool does not mean they do not press. No top team can have 3 front players who cannot press or do defensive work.
But it’s not a press that should be beyond even the laziest player? It’s not optimal and it makes things harder but it’s hard to say it doesn’t work at the highest level when they have reached a final and semi final within the last 2 years.
 

KingCavani

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That’s not true. Teams like Bayern and Madrid aren’t high pressing machines. You can work around it. You just need to know how.
This non pressing side reached a CL final months before Poch took charge
There is a reason Messi's sides were consistently decimated away from home in Europe for the past few years when facing big teams.

He's a liability in those games. The fact that Mbappe is one of the only other players in Europe to cover 7km a game doesn't help. They're asking far too much of the other players.
 

VP89

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That’s not true. Teams like Bayern and Madrid aren’t high pressing machines. You can work around it. You just need to know how.
This non pressing side reached a CL final months before Poch took charge
There isn't a single player for Bayern who is as lazy off the ball as Messi and Mbappe.
 

Hammondo

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But it’s not a press that should be beyond even the laziest player? It’s not optimal and it makes things harder but it’s hard to say it doesn’t work at the highest level when they have reached a final and semi final within the last 2 years.
They did not use this lineup, and probably the main reason they lose is because of this lack of press.

They did a good job of avoiding top teams, they did nothing impressive in either CL.
 

sugar_kane

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Things seem to go south quickly for Poch whenever he has a shot at the United job, it was the beginning of the end for him at Spurs when he began openly flirting with the idea in 2019.
 

KingCavani

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"I keep receiving information from Qatar that the Emir and his entourage are beginning to lose patience with Mauricio Pochettino. They don't like how PSG plays, their locker room management and the poor performance they get from Lionel Messi who they see misplaced."

He gone.
Little Dictator gotta dictate.
 

RedDevilMachine

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His stock has fallen since he managed PSG but honestly I wouldn't reach too much into this. PSG is an impossible job. It's like managing a poor man's Real Madrid without any team cohesion, balance and history. Ancelotti, Tuchel are top managers but didn't stay for long. No manager seems to last for more than 2 years there.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
23,415
There is a reason Messi's sides were consistently decimated away from home in Europe for the past few years when facing big teams.

He's a liability in those games. The fact that Mbappe is one of the only other players in Europe to cover 7km a game doesn't help. They're asking far too much of the other players.
Mbappe has one foot in Madrid. His head definitely isn't with PSG.
 

Telsim

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 7, 2021
Messages
731
Not a fan of Pochettino, but what is oil money "unhappy" with? 11 points clear off the top in Ligue 1 and into RO16 of the CL. Do they just expect to stomp everyone, because he has Messi/Mbappe/Neymar? This isn't Playstation where you just stick the best players and call it a day.