Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by crossy1686, May 12, 2019.
People called for his sale.
Meanwhile Pereira is cropped out who also put in similar effort. Meanwhile Smalling is giving someone double the coverage for some odd reason. Then you have McTominay's bad defending. All contributed to the goal.
For the people who say our players downed tools, I have only one simple question.
During the Newcastle home game, it was widely accepted that a defeat would have resulted in Jose getting the boot, why did the players (Pogba included as he one of the best performers that day) bother turning around the dire situation ? I mean all they had to do was coast and Jose was getting fired anyway
I agree, in part, that I didn't buy 100% into Herrera's passion shtick but I feel Ed tried to play on him blind loyalty by keeping him on that low contract for so long.
Pogba did say that but we all know what he was doing really. Again I think it would take willful naivety to think otherwise.
Most goals have multiple errors from different players leading up to them, some big and some small. Pogba's effort was unforgivable but McT was terrible.
Yeah, everyone know Pogba is a liability defensively and he can't sense danger. I don't see any point in relying on him to track runners or play him deep. We had good set up under Ole, shame he changed it after few games.
For me biggest mistake was from McT. By the time he lost, Cardiff player already gained some space, Pogba sprinting back would have been good to show his effort but wouldn't have changed anything.
That's a problem with him I've noticed for a while, if he perceives a certain defensive situation as a "lost cause", he doesn't bother extending himself whereas it's not the right mindset to have at this level. Even if you run back, anything can happen, you could be on the receiving end of a blocked shot and then clear the ball for instance. That's one thing I've never liked in players who just work hard when they feel like they can win the ball with a big percentage
No one escapes this season unscathed. Pog is included in this. His overall play has been dismal - sure the stats look good but he’s simply not been good enough across his the season and his time here.
We keep hearing “build a team around Pogba” - “let’s try find his best position” - when in some games his effort and effectiveness is outdone by McTominay. Pog has gotten free reign and still is sluggish. Although I don’t agree with the hate, his bollocking by fans can be justified as it isn’t just him getting it.
He’s not been good enough. I’d like him to stay but also if he goes it won’t break my heart.
I was talking about the abuse in the stadium.
People can go on about his goals, assists, contributions all they want. At the end of the day, I hold Pogba to a far higher standard than most of the squad because he is capable of so much more. Young has been crap, absolutely, but I don't think he's capable of much more. Same goes for Smalling, Jones, and most of the squad. Pogba though is meant to be one of the best in his position and far too often he is found wanting. He might not be a defensive midfielder, but on Sunday when players were literally running past him and he was just standing watching them questions really do need to be asked of him. There's so many occasions this season when the general role of a midfielder has totally passed him by.
I'm not singling him out, others like Martial, Lukaku and Rashford are all culpable. But Pogba is capable of far more than he has been showing recently.
I agree from an image standpoint but in reality there is no hope and I'm pretty sure that he thought that he was covered. We can all agree that it's a poor showing and it doesn't give the correct example for players that maybe need to look up to someone, that's why I loved Hernandez contribution for France, he added that little extra of never-say-die mentality, Pogba doesn't have that and never will, which is why I'm convinced that he isn't a leader.
Now, if we all agree on that, this clip showcases the actual problem with this team, we are fundamentally average from a tactical and technical standpoint, no amount of Pogba being a warrior will change that but we also need to accept the fact that Pogba isn't a leader, some can't accept it and think that because we paid a certain amount he has to become something that is near impossible to gain because it's linked to the way you grow up and are developed.
We cannot defend throw in just as well as we struggle executing throw ins.
Not sure if Pogba had similar abuse in the games before? He was the easy target and at that place at that moment IMO.
Do I need to know someone behind the scenes?
He was a highly disruptive influence under Mourinho. Whether you agree with Mourinho or not, he shouldn't have to put up with his newly made captain immediately undermining him in the press or Pogba's form, which was absolutely abysmal and looked to borderline taking the piss during that spell. It suggests that he's happy to pick and choose when he wants to play. Further evidence for that was his dramatic upturn in form for a spell under Solskjaer when he was under pressure to prove that it was Mourinho in the wrong and not him. Fast forward to a time we're struggling for results and his form has plummeted once more, arguably because he's made his point personally, thinks the team isn't worth the hassle and is eyeing up that Madrid move. Again, most fans would agree that he's surrounded by poor players, but that doesn't allow him the luxury of becoming one himself. He has made no attempt to disguise his interests in moving to another club. When Solskjaer was being celebrated during the purple patch and we finally had some positivity running through the club, guess who was singing the praises of Zidane instead? What sort of example is being set by a supposed dressing-room leader who everyone knows probably wants away and has a track record of believing himself to be bigger/better than the manager and club. In all his time here, he's only imposed himself on one game in which we've went behind that I can remember, which was the freak Manchester derby. Typically, the worse we play in a game, the worse he looks. Our star player and supposed leader should provide more in those situations and he rarely does, despite the ridiculous amount of opportunities to do so recently. He so often indulges himself on the pitch (stupid penalty run ups, needlessly holding onto the ball, the dreaded flicks and tricks) that if you've missed that evidence then I can't help. Likewise with his clearly half-arsed attitude when it comes to defensive duties, backed up by various statistics. Even if you ignore all of that, the fact that he generates so much charged discussion and controversy is a problem in its own right because it is an unwanted distraction from the actual issues in the side.
With regards to the press, I agree to some extent as he was harshly singled out during his first season here, probably the typical one of always wanting the big money signing to flop. However he then went off to the World Cup and played pretty much the same as usual except this time surrounded by far better players, namely those (Kante & Matuidi) which disguised his defensive lapses. The media raved about him. I think he came back from that feeling vindicated, but I'm not so sure he was right to do so unless he's happy to be considered as a luxury who can only really function in a team of superstars which complement his game perfectly. After that I would say the media were more focused on Mourinho not getting the best out of Pogba, rather than Pogba himself. When he was in form during Ole's spell, he was roundly praised again. Essentially he is praised when he plays well and criticised otherwise. How unfair! There seems to be this notion that the likes of Souness, Keane and Mourinho have poisoned our fragile minds where in fact we're just using our eyes and ears. I'm basing my opinion on Pogba's words, Pogba's football, Pogba's antics. Not the opinion of Graeme fecking Souness. Right now, for our club, we need him to elevate the players around him. If he can't do that, which seems to be the case, then he's not the right player at the right time.
I don't blame him for wanting to leave either by the way, he's a talented player and he's likely to shine in a team with better players around him. We'd miss his technical ability no doubt and I wouldn't even say I want him to leave, despite the above rant. But equally, I don't blame the United fans who are fed up with him and other overpaid stars which have a seemingly cult-like following despite rarely performing to the level they should and being lazier than the players around them to boot. Pogba for example would get a tiny fraction of this criticism and abuse if he worked harder defensively and developed an awareness of how the fans are likely to react in certain situations (i.e. losing games) when he's indulging himself on the pitch.
Pogba never moved a muscle.. and people here are still telling me he's world class and our best player. How I wish he was playing alongside Roy Keane: now that would be an interesting conversation!
Smalling and McTominay should get as much stick as him, they were appalling. People expectations of those 2 are not the same though. I mean I rate Smalling as a solid CB, but he has let us down so many times.
I'm not sure why would you put Pereira in this, look at the player getting away from Pogba while he barely moves a muscle. It's dreadful.
I'm not saying he is solely responsible for the goal. But look at the effort from him, it's embarrassing and there's no excuse for that.
Absolutely, but that ''effort'' by Pogba while being on 300k a week is fecking pathetic.
False. Pogba never downed tools. Infact Mourinho will have lost his job sooner if Pogba had actually downed the tools.
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I don’t see why his wage is constantly brought up. Every footballer in the premier league is paid stupid money. Do people really think he deserves more criticism because he earns 300k, rather than 150k like the rest of our players?
Also can’t understand the people criticising him for going to apologise to the fans. If another player had gone over and Pogba has went straight down the tunnel, those same people would be saying ‘look how terrible his attitude is, he can’t even face the fans’. If people can’t see the double standards that are applied where Pogba is concerned then I don’t know what to say.
Is he apologising in some other video? Looks to me like fans tell Pogba to get out of the club and Pogba just stands there until he gives off that, "Ok, fine I'll oblige" move and points at the guy as he actually walks down the tunnel.
Nothing to say other than we will be a far worse team without him.
Yes he isnt capable of leading us on his own but in our current position, we need players of his quality and will not be able to attract that without CL football. I predict he will go this summer and we will finish 9th next season with Ole being sacked before xmas. Top reds on here will push the agenda that he wasn't fully committed/had attitude problems etc but I honestly see a player low on confidence. He showed class in responding to that moron as he did on sunday. I'll miss him.
"Pogba. Look at all these poor neanderthals criticising him. Do they not know who he is? For he is Pogba, the greatest of the great, above criticism, above the lesser man."
This is basically what a section of posters view him as now, beyond criticism. The man can do no wrong. He alone dragged us to the highest heights of sixth place with his mountain of goals and assists. Praise Pogba oh lordy lordy...
It's all a bit sad really
Although we were shite under van Gaal going forward, we were actually very good at defending and you could see the impact he had in terms of player positioning on dead ball situations.
You are a prime example of those "double standards". They work both ways. The defense of Pogba has become laughable at this stage, i dont hear much of it from the fans who attend matches on a weekly basis .
Pogba is been rightly pilloried because he is allegedly our star player . If that is how a star player performs in 2019 then we need a major rethink
No I am not. I will criticise him when he plays badly just like every other player. My point is specifically relating to the nature and extent of criticism.
Apologise/face the fans. Think the point still stands but just my opinion.
I am not blaming all the manager's mistakes on Pogba. That would be dumb. The manager made a lot of mistakes and they are on him. And he has been fired anyway. But Pogba cannot be excused. Minus those first weeks under Ole, he has been inconsistent this season and way too much drama around him (largely due to his own fault. His agent, his brother, himself, just never kept shut. It was one drama after another. And Pogba himself was massively inconsistent).
Like I said, you are blaming our league position on 1 player when we have 22-23 players in the squad. That's just madness.
True. Overall squad issues would down any player form. Pogba isn't our root problem IMO.
I try to separate issues in my head. Mourinho messed up. That's a fact.
Pogba messed up. That is also a fact.
My problem is when we try to excuse one for another. Or when we mix things up. Pogba undermined his manager. I don't care whether or not he was echoing what fans were saying and it does not matter if the manager was popular or not. That for me, massively contributed to our overall poor performance this season. You are right, he should not have said those things in public. It was not his place to do it. He would never have gotten away with it under Fergie, Pep, Klopp, Poch or Sarri. I will never see a justification for it.
Why couldn't Pogba give us those performances during Ole's first few weeks, all season? Surely, those weeks showed that he has the capacity. Same for many of the other players. To say that (like someone here did) without Pogba we would not have even come sixth, is to me, ridiculous when, clearly, he was part of the reason we struggled in the first instance.
That wasn't the word I used initially, but was advised by another forum member to change the word I first used as it was against the Redcafe rules, which I didn't know, so change it.
If SkyNews reported today that he had agreed a deal with another club. I would be satisfied. Although he can play a bit, we are not the right fit for him, and nor should we change anything to accommodate him. My opinion of course.
While I understand your point, unfortunately, the world spins on perceptions and we largely create those perceptions. Good that you are able to focus on the substance but the vast majority of people, cannot do that.
And he isn't the solution either, to be fair to a lot of posters that's the point that they are trying to make. Where I disagree with some of them, is that they go one step too far in expecting him to be the solution because of his transfer fee when from the beginning the transfer fee wasn't justified if you limit yourself to on-field arguments, no CM is worth that and no CM went for a remotely close fee. The reason Pogba cost that much is because Juventus are a rich club and he was marketable for them and therefore worth a lot of money. And before some people start that conversation, he wasn't signed for marketing reason but because he is very good and he was available, his marketability is just a convenient and lucrative perk.
Pogba the midfielder was worth maybe 50m-60m in 2016 and this is due to the fact that in today's game no midfielder can dominate midfield, only a unit can do that which limits the worth of a singular player. Now depending on context a given player can see his fee grossly inflated which is the case for Pogba or even Verratti, neither are worth hundred of millions.
Something that will always be ignored and individuals will be blamed for not dominating the midfield.
Okay, so he is a massively inconsistent player then or one whose emotions get the better of him as far as performances are concerned.
You are looking at individual games. I am looking at a series or a whole lot of games over a period of time. Overall, before Jose left, Pogba was very inconsistent. He had a few super games but he also cost us a few points. His manager was so upset with his attitude that he dropped him. How dare him!
Same can be said of the last 12 games under Ole.
I do want to keep him in the squad IF he is willing to stay and IF the club is ready to surround him with brilliant leaders. Pogba is undoubtedly gifted but is a luxury player.
Yeah no doubt. He is still a top midfielder and one of the best in Europe. If we receive north of 100m for him though personally I'd sell him and try to improve his and other position in the team.
But his contribution can be offset by buying a top CM and investing the rest somewhere else. We can get a big fee due to his marketability which is a big plus.
I'm sick of Pogba and his crap attitude and "apologies"
He has been a flop, he's influenced the dressing room, for me in a negative way.
He is vastly talented, yet rarely shows consistency and just stinks the place out. Such a lazy player
Time he went.
Oh yes, he did 'down tools' (you are interpreting this to mean poor play. I am interpreting it to many things including disregard for his boss and a clear desire to get him fired), I don't need graphs, maps or stats. It was obvious.
Like I said, no, I am not. That would be madness.
And while Pogba is inconsistent, it shouldn't be that big of a problem, it's only a problem when you rely week in week out on a player to be the difference between success and failure but that's a terrible idea especially when it's a CM. Like someone else mentioned, not having De Bruyne barely affected City and that's the difference between a well built team and United.
Does this graph not prove the frustrations people have with Pogba?
One week he's brilliant, the next two or three he's ineffective. You don't want such stark peaks and troughs from your supposed best player. There needs to be a higher, more consistent base level to his play.
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