Pointless points discussion

[sugar_kane]

It crops up numerous times in conversations and articles about our progress this year, and where we are at as a club.

Whether it's the fact that (until the last couple of weeks) this had been our worst points tally since 1912 or whatever or more recently that we finished on the same points as last year therefore we haven't progressed.

You simply cannot logically compare points tallies season to season as it ignores all context of what is happening in terms of the competition.

Also if we're playing that game then why are we ignoring that all of these teams have gone backwards this year?

Manchester City (seventeen point negative swing)
Chelsea (worst season since Mourinho's meltdown)
Spurs (worst points tally in about 10 years)
Arsenal (worst position and points tally in 25 years! I honestly couldn't believe I'd not seen this one pointed out anywhere...)

I mean obviously the answer is because no-one gives a shit about those teams, but it's still worth observing.

 

[Manutd GOGOGO]

Agreed.

Points were dropped unnecessary before Bruno came in.

We are Top of the table(14 Matches) in points after that.

Can you imagine that? This is title winning form after Bruno...
The future is very bright for us should we continue adding impact players like Bruno.

 

[Untd55]

I think it is a major point because it emphasises that the performances from Manchester United and Chelsea would not have been sufficient to get top four in a usual season The thing is that any club that got the 3rd and 4th position this year would have benefited from the league being weak. It indicates the amount of improvement required because I think there will be a major strengthening next year, and the overall performances of Chelsea and Manutd this season won't be enough in the next.

It wasn't only those who benefited, though, as Man City and Liverpool did also. I think Liverpool's points total was somewhat inflated in comparison to their actual performances. Man City would not have been so comfortable in second with their performances this year either; I mean they had more losses than us.

 

[OleBoiii]

You simply cannot logically compare points tallies season to season as it ignores all context of what is happening in terms of the competition.

It's shocking how so many people fail to understand this. I wonder if it's stupidity or agenda posting?

I guess Fergie was a shit manager. I mean, he only managed to break 90 points once(?)

 

[freeurmind]

I thought this was going to be a discussion on the TV quiz show Pointless.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

It crops up numerous times in conversations and articles about our progress this year, and where we are at as a club.

Whether it's the fact that (until the last couple of weeks) this had been our worst points tally since 1912 or whatever or more recently that we finished on the same points as last year therefore we haven't progressed.

You simply cannot logically compare points tallies season to season as it ignores all context of what is happening in terms of the competition.

Also if we're playing that game then why are we ignoring that all of these teams have gone backwards this year?

Manchester City (seventeen point negative swing)
Chelsea (worst season since Mourinho's meltdown)
Spurs (worst points tally in about 10 years)
Arsenal (worst position and points tally in 25 years! I honestly couldn't believe I'd not seen this one pointed out anywhere...)

I mean obviously the answer is because no-one gives a shit about those teams, but it's still worth observing.

That's the gist of it for me.

 

[Santoryo]

It's like saying our treble winning season was worst in the league(79 points) than our season under Mourinho when we finished second on 81 points. You simply can't compare without context.

 

[OleBoiii]

It's like saying our treble winning season was worst in the league(79 points) than our season under Mourinho when we finished second on 81 points. You simply can't compare without context.

The Class of 92 in shambles!

 

[Mr Smith]

I personally do think discussing our points tally is relevant, but not in comparing them to our points tallies in previous seasons. Rather, it's about comparing our points tally to other teams this season. The fact that the teams mentioned in the OP (City, Chelsea, Spurs), have had such a massive negative points swing tells you that we've been fortunate, because the teams around us have also been poor. It's a good thing that we've capitalised and finished above some of them, but I think it's sheer denial to ignore the fact that we would have missed out on top 4 if our rivals hadn't had bad years.

On the other hand, to suggest this year is not much better than last based on the points tally is mental.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't expect it to stop. It's the last thing that the Ole out lot can cling onto now he's exceeded expectations by finishing third.

Anyone flippantly saying the league is weak this season is an idiot. The PL is the richest league in the world, with the most top-level managers across the board - there are no easy games. Last season the CL and Europa finals were all English affairs. The current favourites for the CL is Man City and the current favourites for Europa is us. Liverpool and City have emerged in the last 2-3 years as elite clubs, there were no elite clubs prior to that in the post-SAF era as evidenced by English teams' performances in the CL. The PL is different to how it was even just 2-3 years ago.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

How to fix broken team and turn it into a winning one? Those same people will not be able to answer this because ''points'' isn't relevant to it.

 

[Random Task]

You'll notice the same people harping on about a low points tally are also active in the various Ole Out threads, or those of a negative nature in general.

It's just another stick to beat the manager with.

 

[Siorac]

It crops up numerous times in conversations and articles about our progress this year, and where we are at as a club.

Whether it's the fact that (until the last couple of weeks) this had been our worst points tally since 1912 or whatever or more recently that we finished on the same points as last year therefore we haven't progressed.

You simply cannot logically compare points tallies season to season as it ignores all context of what is happening in terms of the competition.

Also if we're playing that game then why are we ignoring that all of these teams have gone backwards this year?

Manchester City (seventeen point negative swing)
Chelsea (worst season since Mourinho's meltdown)
Spurs (worst points tally in about 10 years)
Arsenal (worst position and points tally in 25 years! I honestly couldn't believe I'd not seen this one pointed out anywhere...)

I mean obviously the answer is because no-one gives a shit about those teams, but it's still worth observing.

Isn't that pretty much the point? That our third place finish isn't a result of obvious progress in our play but instead it's down to other teams around us regressing significantly.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Cross seasons comparative points discussion is pointless.

Yeah as others have said, contexts seriously has to be considered - every season is different eg. strengths of teams, competition changes, rules, etc.

 

[Odin]

How to fix broken team and turn it into a winning one? Those same people will not be able to answer this because ''points'' isn't relevant to it.

I don't understand the "we would have beaten them last year" or "we wouldn't succeed any other year". Every year, points are gathered by beating that specific years opposition. Hence, point tally can not be compared between years without taking into consideration whether that opposition is being treated favourably by referees (eg. level of allowance of thuggishness) or opposition has closed the gap financially (eg. by a change in the allocation of TV-money).

You don't fix anything by talking about points. You do that by identifying strengths and weaknesses in your own team, relative to the opposition and in line with the current rules and legislation. Then you go about improving what you got while covering your weaknesses. Simple really.

Focusing on points don't get you places. Focusing on performance does.

 

[cyberman]

Its a nothing point. Pep has as many points this season as Jose did when he finished second with us.
And the logical conclusion is.....?

 

[11101]

It doesn't tell you much about us currently but the fact remains we need to be breaking 80 points as an absolute minimum next season. At least one of Liverpool or City will almost certainly be doing that and possibly more.

I agree you can't use 66 points to say we're poor any more than you can look at our points post Bruno and assume next season will be the same. The reality should be somewhere in between. This has been a season like no other, we won't be getting a 3 month rest in the middle again, or playing games every 3 days for nearly 2 months. I think we will get over 80 only if we strengthen the squad in 2 or 3 key areas.

 

[Random Task]

Isn't that pretty much the point? That our third place finish isn't a result of obvious progress in our play but instead it's down to other teams around us regressing significantly.

Would winning the EL improve our sides pedigree in your eyes, especially considering the of the quality sides remaining in the competiton.

 

[Siorac]

Would winning the EL improve our sides pedigree in your eyes, especially considering the of the quality sides remaining in the competiton.

The point here was that other sides' regression isn't ignored at all - the people who do think points totals are relevant point to the poor performance of other sides as a reason why we finished relatively high in the table.

But to answer your question, I don't think the EL matters much in terms of judging where this United side are at right now. It's a cup competition, with one-legged ties to boot so it doesn't mean much either way. Next season's PL performance will be the true indicator - we'll have to significantly improve our points total. Even if 66-70 were to be enough for third place again, it would be a disappointing season for me.

 

[Odin]

The point here was that other sides' regression isn't ignored at all - the people who do think points totals are relevant point to the poor performance of other sides as a reason why we finished relatively high in the table.

But to answer your question, I don't think the EL matters much in terms of judging where this United side are at right now. It's a cup competition, with one-legged ties to boot so it doesn't mean much either way. Next season's PL performance will be the true indicator - we'll have to significantly improve our points total. Even if 66-70 were to be enough for third place again, it would be a disappointing season for me.

Our players focussing on points will be very counterpruductive, but it seems it has occupied the entire mind of some of our fans. The players and management need to focus on beating the teams, one by one.

Improvements won't materialise out of thin air as we crave for points, the points will come as a consequence of our thirst to improve.

 

[vodrake]

Fegie's Treble winning team would have finished 3rd this season going by points total, guess that means they were pretty shit!

Or, comparing points across seasons is dumb, removing all context, and is used mainly by people with a massive agenda to push

 

[bosnian_red]

Always say it. Year to year points totals are dumb to compare and pretty irrelevant. United 11/12 and 12/13 is the perfect comparison. We signed RvP summer 2012. One year won the title comfortably, the other year lost out on GD. The year we won we had the same points but a worse GD. No question that our title winning year was a much better team though.

Or the 2 best ever premier league sides and only ones to win both the CL and PL in the same season ending on 79 and 87 points (99 and 07).

 

[Siorac]

Always say it. Year to year points totals are dumb to compare and pretty irrelevant. United 11/12 and 12/13 is the perfect comparison. We signed RvP summer 2012. One year won the title comfortably, the other year lost out on GD. The year we won we had the same points but a worse GD. No question that our title winning year was a much better team though.

There's plenty of question though. It wasn't anywhere near that clear-cut. The 2012/13 team did somewhat better in the Champions League where we really dropped the ball in the previous season but that's the big difference. And that City were much better in 2012 than a year later.

 

[saivet]

I don't think it's completely pointless at all as there are often trends in terms of the level required to achieve certain positions. Context is important, but I think it's a fairly good barometer for highlighting the quality in certain parts of the table. Since 2007/208, I haven't looked back any further, 66 points has only been enough to reach top 4, in this season and in 2015/2016 season when Leicester won the league. In 2015/16, we finished on 66 and finished 5th behind City on goal difference.

United and Chelsea can't afford afford to be comfortable in this position, and I think neither will otherwise if either team doesn't improve significantly, a similar season to this one will see one or both of us out of the top 4.

For example, looking at Moyes' season who no doubt deserved to be sacked was a bit unlucky that all the other top teams performed pretty well, with Arsenal who finished 4th had 79 points. That's football though, teams can get nice or tough draws in the cup competitions so it's just part of the parcel.

 

[adexkola]

Of course points are important. It's directly related to your performance from game to game over the course of a season.

It gets a bit more murky in terms of season to season comparison, but looking at the average trends of what was required to finish in the top 4, it can be said that United and Chelsea were the beneficiaries of a weaker than normal league this season.

And it's more relevant when considering what will be needed to mount a serious title challenge in the next few seasons. City and Liverpool have raised the bar. This year was a bad one for City yet they cleared 80 points. The past 2 seasons have seen City and Liverpool flirt with the 100 point barrier.

But focus on position only if that makes you feel good.

 

[Acole9]

People get way too hung up about this, sure I want us to get many points as we can but point tallies can really vary from season to season.