Poppies and remembrance at football matches

[sullydnl]

I feel like a thread about football players wearing the poppy in 2018 has probably moved off point if ye're arguing about the Irish potato famine from over 168 years ago.

I mean god knows I'll happily watch ye have the argument but it's hardly football forum stuff.

 

[stevoc]

I have no issue with people from Ireland not wanting to wear the poppy, or anybody for that matter .. it's totally a personal choice and nobody should be pressurised in to it. I'm not here enforcing 'poppy fascism' because that would be ridiculous, it takes away the entire point .. it's a free choice to show respect or not.

I don't view people not wearing poppies as disrespectful to Britain, all I am saying is that the notion that the BL supports war criminals is ridiculous. As a charity it's undeniably a good one which helps a lot of good people, it doesn't represent imperialism, or militarism, or any of that other shite. It's just a charity dedicated to helping ex servicemen and women who are suffering.

No one is saying that, at least i'm not trying to say they knowingly or openly support them. I'm sure it's a great charity, full of genuinely nice people trying to help others and doing good work. But lets be honest here it's a charity that represents British military personnel. I don't think anyone would have a hard time understanding why some people from parts of the world who's lives, families and communities have been affected by the British Military wouldn't want to be associated with or support it.

 

[ivaldo]

So Save the Children has as much of a probability of aiding former British soldiers who committed war crimes as a charity that is specifically geared solely towards aiding former British Soldiers?

Yeah mate i think you need to have a rethink of that theory. You are being deliberately obtuse now.



I'm sure the vast majority perhaps even all of the people involved in the British Legion are good folk only trying to help others. And wouldn't support or approve of the actions of some of the soldiers their charity represents.

But that doesn't detract from the fact the British Legion is linked to representing and supporting former military personnel who served in Northern Ireland and other countries who have been involved in atrocities.

Not specifically war criminals, I would have hoped that point was obvious. You’re naive if you think other charitable organisations haven’t in some way funded someone of disrepute.

Right, so the personnel involved aren’t advocating or supporting what happened, the organisation itself doesn’t advocate or support what happened, their purpose is wholly a good thing, and you say there is merit in not supporting the cause because there is a slim possibility that they might have unintentionally offered financial support to a war criminal...

The irony comes of course in McClean saying he’d gladly wear a poppy everyday if it was only about WW1&2, as if such atrocities didn’t exist back then.

 

[Eire Red United]

Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.

He’s got a massive chip on his shoulder. Matic explained his reasons, I get it, he saw first hand the problems caused by British Soldiers. And you know what because he’s a nice, quiet guy no one is on his back.

The abuse that McClean is getting is certainly out of order and I don’t condone that sort of behaviour but the way he goes out about it, he doesn’t help himself.

He shouldn’t care because he wasn’t born? Most people weren’t born during WW1 and 2 but naturally everyone cares about those events. And McClean wasn’t born when Bloody Sunday happened, but plenty in his family were and plenty more atrocities were carried out by the British Army here during McCleans lifetime.

As for you not understanding why McClean refers to them as his people, I don’t know where you’re from, but what I do know is that centuries of Irish Nationalists being oppressed has created tight knit communities, I get where McClean is coming from there.

 

[Tincanalley]

I will not distinguish some of the more pretend-smart arguments raised here by answering directly. As pointed out by others my post was a call for respect. I respect those who want to wear a poppy. Respect those of us who do not.

On one level, of course, I don’t know what the feck I’m talking about. ‘Race’, I mean what’s that? ‘Races’ in the 19th century were easy. They were people of different colour, or having a particular relationship to empire. Darwin had just written Origin of Species. Some lads in tall hats felt so superior to everyone else they were a species, all to themselves. And with that entitlement came the need to put everyone else firmly in their respective places.

We know that in an alternate universe, there are actually no races; Homo sapiens are Homo sapiens. A flawed but sometimes noble species.

Dictionaries struggle with ‘race’. Such a heavily loaded expression. One defines race as:

‘a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group...’

Well, most of the population of Ireland fit the first qualification. It was in this basis they were discriminated against. It still happens. They could be caricatured (as others have illustrated) in the 19th century as uncouth, dirty, alcoholic, heavy browed, clods. In the sixties my uncles faced signs saying “No Irish need Apply”.

So - we are not British. We have a separate culture. It’s not necessarily based on religion or sense of humour or ability to play hurling. But it’s distinctive. These vague and cumulative differences have been noted, and have played a part in the experience of many.

Call it discrimination, call it racism. Like another poster said, you know - if you want to - what I mean.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Jesus. The bastards literally exported tonnes upon tonnes of food from Ireland, shooting or imprisoning any starving Irish who tried to take the food back. What did they think was going to happen, we’d eat the grass just?

There were literally measures taken by the British government to try and stop the crisis. They were just very ineffectual and far too few resources were dedicated to it. The idea that the potato famine was some great genocidal plan by the British is absurd with very little basis.

The government at the time (whigs) believed strongly in the free market, and did not want to intervene and stop exports. They did not intend to murder the Irish people, but simply placed far too much faith in the market providing, and obviously had very little care for the Irish people. It was a case of profits over the lives of people, not one of genocide. Unless you genuinely believe the British government set out with the intention of murdering the Irish people? Which just is not the case.

There was food in Ireland, the problem was that the vast majority could not afford it, hence why you still had exporting. The prices were too high. It was callous and a damning indictment on how governments treated their people, but again to treat it as genocide is historically false. Anyway, this really isn't the thread for it .. I just don't think that word should be thrown about.

 

[stevoc]

Not specifically war criminals, I would have hoped that point was obvious. You’re naive if you think other charitable organisations haven’t in some way funded someone of disrepute.

You're moving the goalposts now mate, earlier it was every major charity was just as likely to support war criminals now it's just people of disrepute. Well on the off chance that the few charities i support have in someway at some stage inadvertently helped a bad person i can live with that. But i couldn't live with supporting a charity directly linked to the British Military personnel which includes some who have killed innocent people in Ireland.

Right, so the personnel involved aren’t advocating or supporting what happened, the organisation itself doesn’t advocate or support what happened, their purpose is wholly a good thing, and you say there is merit in not supporting the cause because there is a slim possibility that they might have unintentionally offered financial support to a war criminal...

Mate i have already said it's not solely about the financial side, it represents and is inextricably linked to all members of the British Military past and present. It's easy for you to dissociate something that represents British military personnel and the minority of soldiers who have murdered innocent people. But for me and others it is not.

I'm not saying others shouldn't support it, i'm not saying i would disrespect anyone who does either. Just that i personally can't support it.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I feel like a thread about football players wearing the poppy in 2018 has probably moved off point if ye're arguing about the Irish potato famine from over 168 years ago.

I mean god knows I'll happily watch ye have the argument but it's hardly football forum stuff.

Sad innit?

I'm amazed the mods haven't commented.

 

[17Larsson]

Sad innit?

I'm amazed the mods haven't commented.

What comment should the mods say?

 

[ivaldo]

You're moving the goalposts now mate, earlier it was every major charity was just as likely to support war criminals now it's just people of disrepute. Well on the off chance that the few charities i support have in someway at some stage inadvertently helped a bad person i can live with that. But i couldn't live with supporting a charity directly linked to the British Military personnel which includes some who have killed innocent people in Ireland.

Mate i have already said it's not solely about the financial side, it represents and is inextricably linked to all members of the British Military past and present. It's easy for you to dissociate something that represents British military personnel and the minority of soldiers who have murdered innocent people. But for me and others it is not.

I'm not saying others shouldn't support it, i'm not saying i would disrespect anyone who does either. Just that i personally can't support it.

No it wasn't. I clarified that in my last post. Up to you if you want to stick on that though. Interesting that you believe supporting war criminals is highly likely when it comes to the BL, but it's an "off chance" for any other charity you support to have inadvertently helped.

 

[ivaldo]

Acknowledging sacrifice of the soldiers means in some way taking a side in history. And people from other nations/backgrounds have every right to not go along with it. It's not as though McClean and co are booing and making a nuisance in the middle of the minute's silence. He's not even taking a knee like Kapernick. He's literally standing there but without a poppy. If there was a Kenyan footballer on the pitch not wearing the poppy I'd back him too.

The trouble is so many Britons have no idea what it's like to be seen as rats. To be seen as worse than scum and to have your ancestors slaughtered. Bengalis to this day have altered genes because of the trauma of the Bengal famine, I'd imagine the Irish famine had similar effects. Damn right if the Irish or the Kenyans don't want to wear a poppy. Would love to see the meltdown if a chinese player refuses to wear one. The poppy is literally a symbol of his nation's servitude in its recent past.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this in this thread, but I haven't at any point, nor am I in anyway way, stating he shouldnts wear a poppy. I'm happy to discuss this with you. But I suggest you familiarise yourself with the context of conversation before assuming my stance on the matter.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

What comment should the mods say?

Stay on topic? Start a new thread if want to discuss something else?

 

[MadMike]

Allegedly the poppy appeal is racist and white supremacist according to Aaron Bastani

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[stevoc]

No it wasn't. I clarified that in my last post. Up to you if you want to stick on that though.

You've changed your tune several times mate, so thats on you.

Interesting that you believe supporting war criminals is highly likely when it comes to the BL,

Well it is likely they aid thousands of veterans every years and have done so for over 50 years. It stands to reason they've helped some that were involved in atrocities in Ireland. Of course you are free to believe it's only a remote possibility if you like.

but it's an "off chance" for any other charity you support to have inadvertently helped.

Who knows maybe the Childrens and Animal charities i support help loads of War Criminals.

Anyway we're going round in circles so i'll leave it there. I respect your decision to support the poppy appeal and the British Legion. I also understand and respect why you support them.

 

[Rory 7]

The Irish potato famine was not 'genocide'.

There was no aim for the extermination of the Irish people, which is what genocide is.

Certainly the British government didn't view the Irish with much importance and their response to the crisis was disgraceful, but it wasn't genocide. The British government didn't engineer a famine to kill the Irish, they simply adopted a policy of neglect because they didn't view it as financially beneficial to give proper aid.

Hugely debatle. Not one for this thread either.

 

[worldinmotion66]

You're moving the goalposts now mate, earlier it was every major charity was just as likely to support war criminals now it's just people of disrepute. Well on the off chance that the few charities i support have in someway at some stage inadvertently helped a bad person i can live with that. But i couldn't live with supporting a charity directly linked to the British Military personnel which includes some who have killed innocent people in Ireland.

I have to admit, i find it difficult to understand how you can differentiate.

There are and have been reports of aid workers doing quite abhorrent things including rape and abuse. Yet as they are in the minority, you can shrug that off. The point that I think is being made is that the british legion may inadvertently support war criminals, just as an aid charity inadvertently may support a rapist, a paedophile, or whoever else.

It's not the aim or cause of either charity, and it shouldn't happen, but it's not so easy to control.

And I understand that years of oppression and murder isn't the same as an isolated rape, but each may affect a person more that has been directly affected by such a crime.

I'm not sure that it should have a place in football as such, but players that oppose the charity are afforded the freedom and right to come to this country to play and earn through sport, and in nemanja's case, support his entire village back home, because of the sacrifice and resilience of so many people that the poppy represents.

I wear it to remember that sacrifice.

 

[ivaldo]

You've changed your tune several times mate, so thats on you.



Well it is likely they aid thousands of veterans every years and have done so for over 50 years. It stands to reason they've helped some that were involved in atrocities in Ireland. Of course you are free to believe it's only a remote possibility if you like.



Who knows maybe the Childrens and Animal charities i support help loads of War Criminals.

Anyway we're going round in circles so i'll leave it there. I respect your decision to support the poppy appeal and the British Legion. I also understand and respect why you support them.

Several times is it now? You can always tell a poster that is struggling in a debate. I clarified what I meant a post later, but no, thats the basis of every one of your posts now. Who knows, maybe you can pick me up on my grammar next.

The poster above has put it well enough.

 

[Barca84]

Allegedly the poppy appeal is racist and white supremacist according to Aaron Bastani

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— Twitter API (@user) date

He'll get booted out of the party for that today I should think.

 

[Needham]

Just make the poppies green.

 

[stevoc]

I have to admit, i find it difficult to understand how you can differentiate.

There are and have been reports of aid workers doing quite abhorrent things including rape and abuse. Yet as they are in the minority, you can shrug that off. The point that I think is being made is that the british legion may inadvertently support war criminals, just as an aid charity inadvertently may support a rapist, a paedophile, or whoever else.

It's not the aim or cause of either charity, and it shouldn't happen, but it's not so easy to control.

And I understand that years of oppression and murder isn't the same as an isolated rape, but each may affect a person more that has been directly affected by such a crime.

I'm not sure that it should have a place in football as such, but players that oppose the charity are afforded the freedom and right to come to this country to play and earn through sport, and in nemanja's case, support his entire village back home, because of the sacrifice and resilience of so many people that the poppy represents.

I wear it to remember that sacrifice.

Not an easy question to answer mate, whats the solution don't support any charities? Don't have an opinion or believe in anything because if i support something, anything theres a remote possibility it might help a bad person?

I suppose it's similar on a smaller scale to how others seem to have no problem shrugging off the fact an association linked to tens of thousands military personnel some of whom might have been involved in atrocities. I understand how people can overlook this and i don't think they are bad people for doing so.

I guess it's all down a persons life experiences, their own moral compass and what they can allow their conscience to live with.

 

[Josep Dowling]

So every Jewish person born after the 1940's should have no strong feelings about the holocaust either then?

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

 

[stevoc]

Several times is it now? You can always tell a poster that is struggling in a debate. I clarified what I meant a post later, but no, thats the basis of every one of your posts now. Who knows, maybe you can pick me up on my grammar next.

The poster above has put it well enough.

Classy response mate. Ok i'm the one struggling

Yeah clarified, changed your tune whatever keeps you happy mate.

 

[ivaldo]

Classy response mate. Yeah i'm struggling

Yeah clarified, changed your tune whatever keeps you happy mate.

As classy as refusing to accept a very obvious omittance in a post, and then banging on about it as if thats all that matters, mate.

 

[Rooney24]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

So you think McClean hates all English/British people?

 

[stevoc]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

I have no idea if James McClean hates all British people, i doubt it but who knows. You have no clue either.

You are the one saying you don't understand how people can have strong feelings about an event that happened before they were born. You could explain that a bit better or you could just make assumptions about someone like McClean and then use it as a stick to beat them with.

 

[stevoc]

As classy as refusing to accept a very obvious omittance in a post, and then banging on about it as if thats all that matters, mate.

I've read over that again mate, it did seem like you changed your tune. But if you didn't mean that and i misinterpreted your posts below then i apologize.

I don't support any charities that are even remotely likely to aid war criminals.

On the balance of probability every major charitable organization would have in some way I'm afraid.

So Save the Children has as much of a probability of aiding former British soldiers who committed war crimes as a charity that is specifically geared solely towards aiding former British Soldiers?

Not specifically war criminals, I would have hoped that point was obvious. You’re naive if you think other charitable organisations haven’t in some way funded someone of disrepute.

You're moving the goalposts now mate, earlier it was every major charity was just as likely to support war criminals now it's just people of disrepute.

 

[cyberman]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

Are the jews being asked to wear a symbol of pride for Nazi soldiers?
He doesn't hate all English people nor the nation ffs.
Its easy for the other side to preach about moving on, Its only until 5 (?) years ago the British government were covering up bloody sunday.
Its as if you think these events happened hundreds of years ago.

 

[Champ]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

Wow, how narrow minded can you get!!
Operation Banner only stopped in 2007, check it out, you might learn something.

 

[ivaldo]

I've read over that again mate, it did seem like you changed your tune. But if you didn't mean that and i misinterpreted your posts below then i apologize.

Ok thank you. Let’s leave it there, it’s getting a bit feisty and it’s been a good debate up until then.

 

[Rooney24]

So many posts in this thread that just show a total lack of understanding of the situation both current and historic in Ireland. If some people cannot understand that or take some time to go away and educate themselves a little on it before commenting, then it does actually only stand to reason that they wont understand the James McClean situation and his stance and just paint him as some sort of Anti-British thug.

Had the army rolled into Manchester, Birmingham or London and shot dead 14 innocent unarmed civilians, I wonder how many here would be so quick to honour them.

 

[711]

So many posts in this thread that just show a total lack of understanding of the situation both current and historic in Ireland. If some people cannot understand that or take some time to go away and educate themselves a little on it before commenting, then it does actually only stand to reason that they wont understand the James McClean situation and his stance and just paint him as some sort of Anti-British thug.

Had the army rolled into Manchester, Birmingham or London and shot dead 14 innocent unarmed civilians, I wonder how many here would be so quick to honour them.

They did. Peterloo, 1819.

 

[Barca84]

So many posts in this thread that just show a total lack of understanding of the situation both current and historic in Ireland. If some people cannot understand that or take some time to go away and educate themselves a little on it before commenting, then it does actually only stand to reason that they wont understand the James McClean situation and his stance and just paint him as some sort of Anti-British thug

Had the army rolled into Manchester, Birmingham or London and shot dead 14 innocent unarmed civilians, I wonder how many here would be so quick to honour them.

People should definitely take more time to understand respective cultures and history. I'd highly recommend therefore that you get yourself along to see Peterloo directed by Salford's Mike Leigh. Peterloo, where 15 unarmed civilians were killed by British forces is a defining moment in British civil rights history and in particular the history of the city that is home to the club you support.

You could then read up on the Manchester Pals. Just under 10,000 men enlisted in the Manchester Pals battalions in WW1 and almost 5,000 of them died alongside their friends and neighbours. Whole communities lost their men and the Manchester Regiment lost over 13,000 men in total.

Yes people are quick to honour them.

 

[Eire Red United]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

He clearly doesn’t hate the entire British nation or all British people, nor does he blame the entire nation for what happened, which by the way was not a select event, it was much much more.

 

[Still ill]

This thread needs to be cast in to the wilderness now, not to be resurrected until national James McClean day next year when we can lock horns again and talk about Jewish potatoes or whatever tickles our fancy.

 

[lsd]

Does the Jewish community hate all Germans for those crimes? That is exactly what McClean is doing, he turned his back on the British flag during the national anthems in a friendly before as well. Blaming an entire nation for a select event in the past is why we can never move on quickly as a society.

He doesn't hate the british as he has said on many occasions .

I come from the same city and I can assure you noone here would stand for the british anthem or buy a poppy at least on the nationalist side .

That doesn't mean we hate the british I don't . I love going to places like liverpool newcastle and Manchester etc .

However what the Army did on Bloody Sunday here runs deep so things like this will cause a lot of misunderstandings with a lot of English people .

So we don't hate you but don't ask us to celebrate people who killed innocent people in our hometown .

I wouldn't expect you to wear easter lily's and celebrate the hunger strikes etc

 

[worldinmotion66]

Not an easy question to answer mate, whats the solution don't support any charities? Don't have an opinion or believe in anything because if i support something, anything theres a remote possibility it might help a bad person?

I suppose it's similar on a smaller scale to how others seem to have no problem shrugging off the fact an association linked to tens of thousands military personnel some of whom might have been involved in atrocities. I understand how people can overlook this and i don't think they are bad people for doing so.

I guess it's all down a persons life experiences, their own moral compass and what they can allow their conscience to live with.

At the end of the day those that made the ultimate sacrifice did so for our freedom. Part of that freedom is the freedom of choice that we all have today. You and I are free to support whomever we choose, along with United of course

 

[Jamie Shawcross]

Better still, keep it out of football altogether. I've said before that sport and politics is a toxic brew and this illustrates the point. Back in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, it was unheard of for players to wear poppies. Remembrance Sunday was just that; a day when the dead from two wars were remembered. People wore poppies in the week leading up to the ceremony as a mark of respect for the fallen and then it was put away until the next year. The poppy has now taken on a meaning that was never intended and that, to me, is a sad comment on what we have become as a society.

Completely agree

 

[MoskvaRed]

Not directly related to the football/poppies discussion but I was in a bar in Rome today and 4 English people walked in, asked the staff to put on the Eng v NZ rugby match (no problem because no one was watching TV) and then one of them (who had removed his hat and put it against his chest) started shushing the Italian bar staff when they were talking during the minutes silence (who of course had no idea what was going on). Afterwards he then explained to the girls behind the bar that Sunday was the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI which “meant a lot to British, French, Americans but probably not Italians”.

While the tribute at Twickenham was well designed, this episode summed up what poppy day/remembrance Sunday has become unfortunately - no longer personal memory and respect but a chance for Mr Bulldog to show bone headed patriotism (without even being aware that Italy fought in WWI on the Allied side, let alone in conditions in the mountains that were maybe even worse than the mud of Flanders).

As this is the 100th anniversary, next year would be the perfect time to tone this down and revert to the low key remembrance it was in the 1980s and early 90s.

 

[oates]

Not directly related to the football/poppies discussion but I was in a bar in Rome today and 4 English people walked in, asked the staff to put on the Eng v NZ rugby match (no problem because no one was watching TV) and then one of them (who had removed his hat and put it against his chest) started shushing the Italian bar staff when they were talking during the minutes silence (who of course had no idea what was going on). Afterwards he then explained to the girls behind the bar that Sunday was the 100th anniversary of the end of WWI which “meant a lot to British, French, Americans but probably not Italians”.

While the tribute at Twickenham was well designed, this episode summed up what poppy day/remembrance Sunday has become unfortunately - no longer personal memory and respect but a chance for Mr Bulldog to show bone headed patriotism (without even being aware that Italy fought in WWI on the Allied side, let alone in conditions in the mountains that were maybe even worse than the mud of Flanders).

As this is the 100th anniversary, next year would be the perfect time to tone this down and revert to the low key remembrance it was in the 1980s and early 90s.

Knobs.

 

[Robbo's Shoulder]

I can remember the days when remembrance Sunday was exactly that. A time to remember and relect on the lives of those who paid the ultimate sacrifice to protect our freedoms.
It's a sad time when just like the union flag and the cross of St George before it, the poppy seems to be becoming more of a political symbol hijacked by certain groups to further their own agenda.
The poppy is not and should never be that, it should a sign of the horror and futility of war not the glorifying of it.
The choice to wear or not is entirely down to the individual and no-one should be ostracised if they choose for whatever reason not to wear it. In fact, no reason is even needed by those people, certainly not to a bunch of idiots spouting bollocks on social media.
I stopped wearing a red poppy after the lies regarding the invasion of Iraq and now wear a white 1, my choice but each to their own.