Look at the abuse from the stands & media that James McClean has had to put up with for exercising his personal choice. He has also received death threats for not engaging in this poppy fascism.They would? I wouldn't care less. If they were throwing about Swastikas I might have an issue.
Manipulate the masses in what way? 'Oh hey we have this sneaky plan to make people honour millions of people who died, mwahahaha'.
You're making the U.K seem like an evil totalitarian regime forcing people to sieg heil on their way through the stadium gates. There's a silence and a tune played which is about remembering the fallen. Your comparisons to dictatorships are utterly nonsensical and you're making far too big a deal out of what is just a lot of people deciding that they want to show healthy respect for people who died.
Like others have said in the thread, the only time it goes too far is when people are forced to do it. Nobody should be made to feel guilty if they don't want to take part. It is 100% a personal choice, something which soldiers in the Second World War died to preserve.
Nailed it.Politics and sport are intertwined. They have been since the inception of amateur sport. Lots of people miss this point when they say that sport shouldn’t be politicised. Well, it is. Always has been and always will be.
In the case of McClean and that tedious debate, Stoke City have handled it sensibly. McClean has every right not to wear the poppy. Those who choose to wear it have that very same right.
It’s not difficult.
The media caused that shit storm, not the poppy or even McClean's decision not to wear it.Look at the abuse from the stands & media that James McClean has had to put up with for exercising his personal choice. He has also received death threats for not engaging in this poppy fascism.
Ultimately people go to football matches to watch football, and not to engage in a military parade.
UK has taken a serious turn for the worse. Racism is on the rise. Nazi style slogans like "enemies of the people" are headline news. MPs have also had death threats over brexit. . . .
It is right and proper that those who gave their lives are remembered and honoured.
There's a time and a place for this, and a football match is not appropriate.
Look at the abuse from the stands & media that James McClean has had to put up with for exercising his personal choice. He has also received death threats for not engaging in this poppy fascism.
Ultimately people go to football matches to watch football, and not to engage in a military parade.
UK has taken a serious turn for the worse. Racism is on the rise. Nazi style slogans like "enemies of the people" are headline news. MPs have also had death threats over brexit. . . .
It is right and proper that those who gave their lives are remembered and honoured.
There's a time and a place for this, and a football match is not appropriate.
Racism is on the 'rise' all over Europe, incl. Germany. Don't bring everything and the kitchen sink into a discussion about the free decision whether or not to wear a poppy at a football game.UK has taken a serious turn for the worse. Racism is on the rise. Nazi style slogans like "enemies of the people" are headline news. MPs have also had death threats over brexit. . . .
That's a whole can of worms @Snowjoe we shouldn't be opening imo. Most of Europe did everything but get down on their knees to avoid the whole thing.As much as people say it’s to show respect for the people that died in the world war, the proceeds are raised to help soldiers of the army and I’d understand why someone who comes from a country who suffered at the hands of our army wouldn’t want to support that.
It's difficult to take a photo when they are covering my face.Pics or it didn’t happen.
Ahh, you’re a man of culture as well I see. Carry on then.It's difficult to take a photo when they are covering my face.
I’ve got no issue with remembrance of the world wars and it’s definitely important to teach and learn from. I just don’t think people should be given grief for not participating in the poppy appeal which is just a fundraiser for British army vets. I’d rather fundraising was disconnected from it all together.That's a whole can of worms @Snowjoe we shouldn't be opening imo. Most of Europe did everything but get down on their knees to avoid the whole thing.
It would be nice if we could bring an end to the Remembrance circus but it doesn't look as if people forget for the right reasons yet. Maybe when the opposite of war and conflict breaks out.
I agree with you mostly, it's just your last sentence that I wonder whether vets would get any funding from elsewhere, I've a pretty good idea the Government won't fill any . gaps in funding physio, counselling and whatever else is needed.I’ve got no issue with remembrance of the world wars and it’s definitely important to teach and learn from. I just don’t think people should be given grief for not participating in the poppy appeal which is just a fundraiser for British army vets. I’d rather fundraising was disconnected from it all together.
Agreed. The bran dead followers of Yaxley-Lennon (let's have him by his real name) are welcome to it.It’s a bit weird. Almost as if certain clubs and people try their hardest to be seen to be showing ‘more’ respect than others. It ends up just being cheap.
Also, for me, the Tommy Robinson types have ended up tainting the image of the poppy and along with the Daily Mail campaigns, I think the message is somewhat lost.
I work in a local authority myself.I'm with Harry....
https://prruk.org/why-i-will-never-again-wear-a-red-poppy-by-95-year-old-veteran-harry-leslie-smith/
Poppies, and the debate around them, are getting seriously fecking tedious. I wore one for many years when it was a relatively quiet, understated, solemn and non political way to simply remember the war dead. But every year there is this increasing poppy facism and this year you can't move for them in the villages and towns where we live - massive ones tied to every railing and lamp post. In fact some of these villages have had them up all bloody year - there's no escape. How much is all this costing local authorities ffs?
Ironically these people will make Nazi salutes at rallies while admonishing anyone who doesn't wear a poppy.Agreed. The bran dead followers of Yaxley-Lennon (let's have him by his real name) are welcome to it.
Football's different for three reasons. First, it's the national sport and commands much larger and regular crowds than other sports. It is effectively the largest regular social gathering for any purpose. Second, support is intertwined with a shared identity, collectivism and social unity to a far greater degree than any other sport. And third the top end of the professional game - the Premier League, its clubs, the Scottish Premiership, the FAs - are hugely media-aware organisations who believe they need to be seen to commemorate to cultivate support from the general public and avoid, at all costs, the wrath of the tabloids. It's the same as it being impossible to get in any TV studio over the next two weeks without one on your chest.Why is it football that seems to engage, rightly or wrongly, in acts of military remembrance? Why not other sports?
I had one grandfather in the Manchesters and another in the Connaught Rangers in WWI. I wear a poppy to remember them. It's a damned shame it has been politicized, given the number of Irishmen who served. I'm Anglo-Irish and I don't like the way such a terrible sacrifice of young lives in the horror that was the Great War has been used by some to perpetuate divisions (and I'm not suggesting that you are doing that, by the way).Don't really care about its use in football. I also think the debates and vitriol towards McClean is silly.
If people want to wear them, let them. If they don't, don't make them.
I wouldn't wear one for obvious reasons.
I don't think many sensible people are suggesting anybody should be forced to wear poppies. You're right, that completely goes against what those who served in WW2 fought against, everybody has the right to decide who they want to honour and what they want to wear. You might get a few EDL thugs who take an utterly twisted message from the poppy, completely unaware that their attitude and actions spit in the face of veterans, but most people are happy to let people pay their respects in their own way.I know for a fact that my grandfather fought in WW2 just because he wanted everyone (without exception) to wear poppys.
It had nothing to do with freedom or opposing tyranny.
It's insane to think that this is true.People would be offended (and possibly outraged) if the Bundesliga played bugles or had some commemorative stamp on jerseys to recognise their war dead and others.
It doesn't belong in football and "they were only following orders" is a straw man argument.
The politicians and those in power are hijacking football to manipulate the masses. Even the Americans don't do this to the same extent.
This might not be so obvious to followers of a mega-club like United, especially in the TV and internet age, but I'm sure it's how supporters of most clubs feel. Good post.Football's different for three reasons. First, it's the national sport and commands much larger and regular crowds than other sports. It is effectively the largest regular social gathering for any purpose. Second, support is intertwined with a shared identity, collectivism and social unity to a far greater degree than any other sport. And third the top end of the professional game - the Premier League, its clubs, the Scottish Premiership, the FAs - are hugely media-aware organisations who believe they need to be seen to commemorate to cultivate support from the general public and avoid, at all costs, the wrath of the tabloids. It's the same as it being impossible to get in any TV studio over the next two weeks without one on your chest.
Anyone that wants to wear a poppy should wear one, and equally those that decide they don't want to shouldn't be subject to abuse because of their choice, sadly we live in a society where something as simple as that isn't even possible
I think it should be up to you whether you wear it. It says a lot about you if you actively go against it though.
People have to justify or give a thousand reasons why they are not wearing a poppy. They're made to feel 'ungrateful' or unpatriotic. It's bad and pathetic. It really pisses me off when at this time of year, every man and his dog on TV is wearing one. Fine if they choose to, but I'm guessing they don't really have a choice.Want to wear a poppy? Wear it.
Don't want to wear a poppy? Don't wear it.
It shouldn't be that complicated. And no one should be forced or bullied into doing it. I once witnessed two teachers, both related to veterans, get into a heated argument because one was wearing a red poppy and one was wearing a white one. Probably one of the most ridiculous debates I've ever seen.
How so?Agreed. "Opting out," is a perfectly acceptable stance, though I don't agree with the motives of McClean and others.
I guess you didn't mean just the pics of the knickers, without anyone in themPics or it didn’t happen.
It isn't true either. English and German military personnel have commemorated the war dead at a football match together in the past. English and German troops have played commemorative football matches for the war dead too.It's insane to think that this is true.
Germans = Baddies
UK = Goodies
Dead people only matter if they won, basically.
It's nuts.
Its purely for the rememberence of those that died from various conflicts. It isn't pro military, it isn't glorification or justification of those wars, or as celebration of those that deemed them neccesary or profitable. Its purely to remember the men and women that lost their lives. It's a distinction that seems lost.How so?
Unless I'm mistaken though the funds raised go to to the Royal British Legion don't they? Who then financially support veterans? Including potentially those who served in NI? Including potentially those who committed crimes in NI without being punished?Its purely for the rememberence of those that died from various conflicts. It isn't pro military, it isn't glorification or justification of those wars, or as celebration of those that deemed them neccesary or profitable. Its purely to remember the men and women that lost their lives. It's a distinction that seems lost.
England's national side were already fined for wearing the poppy weren't they?My understanding is that FIFA were going to ban symbols like poppies on shirts. . . This needs to be revisited.
Bans should also be issued on any militaristic style music.
Surely it's easy pretty to draw the line on this issue though?Some are worthy the cause, some are ... well... you can find an excuse to remember anything. The hard part is drawing the line.
Some may think x day is worth the occasion, some might think y day is worth, some may think x or y isnt anything special.
Hard to draw the line.
