Portugal Discussion | Roberto Martinez resigns

[romanian_fan]

Usually Ronaldo is like playing with 10 men but last night he was taking good positions, even in their press. The biggest issue was Bruno going to deep and their midfield taking 4 business days to build up the play.

Also, very strange what was happening in the box and on the wings. Their wingers were pushing wide for a cross and, at times, all the guys in the box were like 2 seconds behind the plays, very strange.

 

[NoLogo]

Too negative, you gotta risk when you have this many creative players and players who can recover balls.

This is the thing that annoys me the most about this team but I can understand that if you have to play Ronaldo playing more aggressive pressing game is not possible. Still it feels like the defensive football is wasting a lot of great attacking talent.

 

[MrEleson]

We saw firsthand how bad Hojlund had us playing, and he was working harder than Ronaldo and he attempted to stretch the defense. Ronaldo was restricted to making runs inside a congested box and hoping the ball got to him. He provided nothing else in attack or defense. How can you create when a player is unable to to do anything other than that? Other strikers are helping their attacking teammates create a passing option for them to provide the assist, get assisted by their striker, or help them get a 2nd assist. And other midfielders have more options to build attacks around more mobile strikers via counter attacks. When everybody's options are already taken off the table you're basically telling your impact players to impact the game in a very specific way and that isn't going to always come off. That could be the difference between creating 3 chances vs 1 chance, which leads to a different fan perception of the player.

The whole team is affected by someone that limited physically.

I saw countless times when Ronaldo made runs over the 5 games Portugal played and no-one attempted to make the pass to him. This has been analysed as dissected on other platforms aswell. Ronaldo definitely has his limitations like I said, I’m not blind to that but it’s nonsensical to keep insisting that he’s the root of Portugal’s diabolical performance this tournament. In fact, it’s not even logical at all.

Since last night I’ve even observed further issues that plenty of brought up elsewhere. Most of the players didn’t really care or have the urgency when they were 0-1 down with seconds on the clock. Just sterile and docile even on the brink of elimination. After FT, nobody was bothered really. The only players who actually looked like they were interested in any sort of result was nuno Mendes and the goalkeeper. The issues very obviously go far beyond Ronaldo but I mean you can keep insisting it’s down to him.

 

[MrEleson]

He literally is the reason Bruno can't break lines - there's no target up front moving to get on the end of them! And there's no pressure on the defense because Ronaldo doesn't run anymore - so Bruno's space is totally congested.

Ronaldo has made runs and no-one has found him. Portugal would have played a a very sterile game regardless. I agree he doesn’t press and it was an issue but I don’t think they would done much better with someone else up front from their options. Or those midfielders would have played well.

Bruno had clear goalscoring chances of his own that he didn’t put away. What’s the explanation for those?

 

[TheGame]

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Ronaldo has made runs and no-one has found him. Portugal would have played a a very sterile game regardless. I agree he doesn’t press and it was an issue but I don’t think they would done much better with someone else up front from their options. Or those midfielders would have played well.

Bruno had clear goalscoring chances of his own that he didn’t put away. What’s the explanation for those?

Why do you say Portugal would have played a sterile game regardless when the best they looked all tournament (non-Uzbekistan division) was when Ronaldo was off the pitch and they went for it vs Croatia?

Again, I'm not arguing that Bruno had an outstanding tournament or anything, obviously. The point is that the team would be much better suited playing to his strengths than to the non-existent ones of Ronaldo's corpse.

Also, Ronaldo is currently tied for 140th in total sprints at the tournament and is 294th for high speed runs - given he's played more minutes than most players, that's pretty fecking abysmal

 

[Bastian]

Even if Ronaldo wasn't around I'm not sure Bruno is compatible with the way Vitinha/Neves play, the play styles are like oil and water. Maybe if you push Bruno away from the midfield and play him as a flase 9 it could work.

Agree.

 

[MrEleson]

Why do you say Portugal would have played a sterile game regardless when the best they looked all tournament (non-Uzbekistan division) was when Ronaldo was off the pitch and they went for it vs Croatia?

Again, I'm not arguing that Bruno had an outstanding tournament or anything, obviously. The point is that the team would be much better suited playing to his strengths than to the non-existent ones of Ronaldo's corpse.

Also, Ronaldo is currently tied for 140th in total sprints at the tournament and is 294th for high speed runs - given he's played more minutes than most players, that's pretty fecking abysmal

When Ronaldo was off the pitch and they went for it against Croatia, Bruno, Vitinha, Neto etc were also off the pitch aswell.

Ronaldo even scored the equaliser and had another goal narrowly offside when they were all off the pitch. Surely, this can’t be the angle you’re using considering there are multiple variables at play here?

That last stat isnt great but it’s somewhat understandable considering the way Portugal have played and he’s been utilised. His top speed recorded at the tournament was still pretty good.

Why can Argentina still win their games with Messi having covered the least distance of all outfield players at the World Cup?
Most of Portugal’s players just simply don’t care or had any hunger to achieve anything this tournament.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Bruno didn’t mesh well with Vitinha, they were getting in each other’s way and are both ball heavy players that have very different playstyles and ideas of how to use the ball.

But ideally with that team you would have Bruno playing a very advanced role and separating himself from midfield issues and focusing on his creativity and goalscoring as a second striker with a mobile forward or physical forward. That couldn’t happen with Ronaldo. Had to be one of Ronaldo or Bruno in the team really. And one is much superior to the other.

I think Tuchel went too far with some of his England squad selections but in attack his focus on Bellingham and Kane without complicating it with a Foden or Palmer has been smart. Martinez has been too weak to make those calls.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

When Ronaldo was off the pitch and they went for it against Croatia, Bruno, Vitinha, Neto etc were also off the pitch aswell.

Ronaldo even scored the equaliser and had another goal narrowly offside when they were all off the pitch. Surely, this can’t be the angle you’re using considering there are multiple variables at play here?

That last stat isnt great but it’s somewhat understandable considering the way Portugal have played and he’s been utilised. His top speed recorded at the tournament was still pretty good.

Why can Argentina still win their games with Messi having covered the least distance of all outfield players at the World Cup?
Most of Portugal’s players just simply don’t care or had any hunger to achieve anything this tournament.

Because Messi is an elite playmaker and finisher? Ronaldo created a total of 0.01 xG for his teammates and didn't attempt a single dribble at the tournament.

Scoring the equalizer via a penalty he had nothing to do with winning is hardly the mark of a good performance. Being offside is also, in fact, bad. Cannot believe this has to be spelled out but here we are I suppose

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

A truly awful coach.

 

[pascell]

Imagine if he somehow pipped Zidane to the France gig, would be the biggest head scratcher of all time.

 

[MrEleson]

Because Messi is an elite playmaker and finisher? Ronaldo created a total of 0.01 xG for his teammates and didn't attempt a single dribble at the tournament.

Scoring the equalizer via a penalty he had nothing to do with winning is hardly the mark of a good performance. Being offside is also, in fact, bad. Cannot believe this has to be spelled out but here we are I suppose

You’re just moving the goal posts. I’m saying he does absolutely 0 running; even less than Ronaldo but it hasn’t made his team lose or look outnumbered because Argentina are largely more of a unit and have better hunger, desire and chemistry.

And my last point was more addressing that they looked much better with Bruno, Vitinha and co off the pitch which shows Ronaldo clearly wasn’t the only variable.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

The thing is Martinez is a world-class yapper/bullshitter so I could see how he could be successful in interviews. Brendan Rodgers another. Hiring boards would like their ‘culture’ and ‘philosophy’ mumbo jumbo.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Why do you say Portugal would have played a sterile game regardless when the best they looked all tournament (non-Uzbekistan division) was when Ronaldo was off the pitch and they went for it vs Croatia?

.....

You do know they should have lost that second half vs Croatia by at least goals if it was not for Croat Profligacy?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Usually Ronaldo is like playing with 10 men but last night he was taking good positions, even in their press. The biggest issue was Bruno going to deep and their midfield taking 4 business days to build up the play.

Also, very strange what was happening in the box and on the wings. Their wingers were pushing wide for a cross and, at times, all the guys in the box were like 2 seconds behind the plays, very strange.

The set up made zero sense. The midfield seemed instructed to constantly do date recycling rather than pass risky nor switch play quick. They kept trying to play on the counter with neither winger, nor Bruno encouraged to run beyond CR7 during attakcks. Neto kept starting game after game whilst producing nothing but perspiration wide right. It was sad

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You do know they should have lost that second half vs Croatia by at least goals if it was not for Croat Profligacy?

Obviously...? But they were better going forward once Ronaldo was off, which is what we're talking about.

You’re just moving the goal posts. I’m saying he does absolutely 0 running; even less than Ronaldo but it hasn’t made his team lose or look outnumbered because Argentina are largely more of a unit and have better hunger, desire and chemistry.

And my last point was more addressing that they looked much better with Bruno, Vitinha and co off the pitch which shows Ronaldo clearly wasn’t the only variable.

He's already offside here. Why would Neves pass to him?

In the first image, Ronaldo is not a threat at all because he has no pace and can be caught by basically every single CB in the world. Playing that ball is pointless. He needs to be near the CBs forcing them deeper instead of dropping off into completely unthreatening areas.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Are people being a little harsh on him? He still got 3rd with Beligum at a World Cup and won the Nations League with Portugal.

 

[MrEleson]

Obviously...? But they were better going forward once Ronaldo was off, which is what we're talking about.



He's already offside here. Why would Neves pass to him?

In the first image, Ronaldo is not a threat at all because he has no pace and can be caught by basically every single CB in the world. Playing that ball is pointless. He needs to be near the CBs forcing them deeper instead of dropping off into completely unthreatening areas.

Obviously...? But they were better going forward once Ronaldo was off, which is what we're talking about.



He's already offside here. Why would Neves pass to him?

In the first image, Ronaldo is not a threat at all because he has no pace and can be caught by basically every single CB in the world. Playing that ball is pointless. He needs to be near the CBs forcing them deeper instead of dropping off into completely unthreatening areas.

It’s more the idea that they never tried to play any risky balls at any point and always ignored his runs.

Also, he had enough pace against Uzbekistan so why would it have been any different here?

 

[FortunaUtd]

Obviously...? But they were better going forward once Ronaldo was off, which is what we're talking about.



He's already offside here. Why would Neves pass to him?

In the first image, Ronaldo is not a threat at all because he has no pace and can be caught by basically every single CB in the world. Playing that ball is pointless. He needs to be near the CBs forcing them deeper instead of dropping off into completely unthreatening areas.

Don't care about the discussion but he's not offside.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Even if Ronaldo is upfront, how do you look so bland and uninspiring with arguably the best midfield at the tournament?

Portugal for me have been the biggest letdown side at this World Cup.

 

[pacifictheme]

Hope Martinez ran this decision by Ronaldo before making it.

 

[Reds Under The Bed]

Martinez's ability to fail upwards is impressive in fairness. He'll bluff his way to another plum role in no time.

 

[Shark]

Martinez, what a joke of a hiring

 

[Buckfast in the Park]

Even if Ronaldo is upfront, how do you look so bland and uninspiring with arguably the best midfield at the tournament?

Portugal for me have been the biggest letdown side at this World Cup.

Neves and Vitinha have got Doue, Kvara and Dembele in front of them at PSG.
Going from that to Neto, Felix/Leao and 41 yo Ronaldo is a major downgrade.
To some extent it would be like having 06-07 Scholes and Carrick going from Ronaldo, Saha and Rooney to Agnonlahor and John Carew.

United is built around Bruno, in retrospect Portugal should have done the same, although I’m not convinced they have the attackers for it, but I’m sure they could have made it work with overloading the left channel with Mendes and Leao like United used to do with Rashford and Shaw.

Will always have a soft spot for Martinez for that FA Cup win with Wigan over City in 2013, legend.

 

[Shark]

Even if Ronaldo is upfront, how do you look so bland and uninspiring with arguably the best midfield at the tournament?

Portugal for me have been the biggest letdown side at this World Cup.

Even the best midfielders need movement in front of them. It's like asking Paul Scholes to have been a magician with a 35 year old Lukaku up front. No, he had some of the best and mobile strikers and wingers in the game to pick out.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

It’s more the idea that they never tried to play any risky balls at any point and always ignored his runs.

Also, he had enough pace against Uzbekistan so why would it have been any different here?

Are you actually asking why it's easier to play against Uzbekistan's defense whilst 3-0 up compared to Spain's when it's 0-0?

And again, it's difficult to play risky passes when you have less time because there's no space between the lines. This is a direct result of Ronaldo's limitations.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Don't care about the discussion but he's not offside.

He looks ahead of Cucurella. But regardless, he has no idea where Cucurella is so it's a bad run from him anyhow. Acting like a petulant child is also super helpful and the sure signs of a level-headed captain who leads by example

 

[Drainy]

Are people being a little harsh on him? He still got 3rd with Beligum at a World Cup and won the Nations League with Portugal.

Belgium's golden generation and Portugal with Cristiano.

Obviously winning anything is difficult, but I've never felt like he's set his teams up well or added anything. Just carried by great players

 

[#07]

With Martinez as Belgium's manager, Kevin De Bruyne looked uncreative. With Martinez as Portugal's manager, Bruno Fernandes looked uncreative.

There's a common denominator here...

 

[VorZakone]

If Ronaldo didn't start, how should Portugal have lined up?

 

[Changeisgood]

Martinez seemed incapable of stamping out any authority....part of the team instead of steering the team and ultimately paid for it. Don't let a superstar run your team, especially not an over the hill one who thinks only of himself.

Portugal will be back but it will hopefully look quite different starting from the next major tournament.

 

[edumfries]

IMO The main reasons Portugal were rubbish is the balance of the wingers, Ronaldo & Bruno, the CDM & the fullbacks (basically Martinez's fault):

Bruno Fernandes is better at passing to wingers who beat the back line than passing to the ST. This is the difference between De Bruyne & Bruno - not that one is better; but De Bruyne is better at picking out the central Striker especially in low blocks than Bruno who can break the pass for fast wider forwards in to open spaces. This is why ever since Bruno has joined United we seem to be playing alternatives to a counter attacking style; to get the best out of Bruno ability to play in to open spaces.

This means Bruno needs high quality wide forwards; players like Leao and that little player that comes on as a sub should be starting games to play as wide forwards compared to Felix and Neto who were always trying to support Ronaldo. Even if Ronaldo is not timing his runs - Bruno then has 2 other forwards to pass to. Bruno knows Felix can't beat his man, that he can't pass to Ronaldo if he's marked by 2 central defenders so he spent most of the tournament passing backwards.

Ronaldo on the other hand has no ability to press or drop deep; so all he was doing is try to make runs to receive passes from Bruno that Bruno couldn't really make. Ronaldo not pressing meant that Bruno couldn't go and press higher than the striker like he normally does at United because it leaves Neves & Vitinha open when they do not play with CDM to provide stability for the rest of the team to move forward and press or attack like Paulinha can do.

Because of their lack of wide forwards Portugal's best chance of width & getting the best out of Bruno was to get the best out of their fullbacks with Mendes being their best player in the tournament. Even on the right we saw caentrao play a better game than Neto. This is why not having a CDM killed Portugal because to get the best out your fullbacks you need to provide a CDM that allows the CBs to drift wide and cover space.

If Ronaldo was really forcing Martinez to play him

Costa
Dalot - Dias - Viega - Nuno Mendes
Paulinha
Neves - Vitinha
Bruno
Ronaldo - Ramos

Such a balance team even if your carrying a 41 year old grandad. Martinez is just too bad as a manager for Portugal to have won it even if Ramos started over Ronaldo.​

 

[Lay]

If Ronaldo didn't start, how should Portugal have lined up?

I saw a stat that said over the last two tournaments, from open play that Ramos has twice as many goals as Cristiano in half the minutes. Maybe he should have started

 

[Xeque_279]

Jorge Jesus being rumored to be the next coach. I swear someone needs to test the people sitting at the FPF.

 

[Harry190]

Jorge Jesus being rumored to be the next coach. I swear someone needs to test the people sitting at the FPF.

What's wrong with him?

 

[Santos J]

Jorge Jesus being rumored to be the next coach. I swear someone needs to test the people sitting at the FPF.

No surprise really, was always going to be him or Mou before he went back to Madrid

I don't mind it really, at least it'll be funny if nothing else and 10x the coach Martinez is

 

[MrEleson]

Are you actually asking why it's easier to play against Uzbekistan's defense whilst 3-0 up compared to Spain's when it's 0-0?

And again, it's difficult to play risky passes when you have less time because there's no space between the lines. This is a direct result of Ronaldo's limitations.

You keep moving goalposts. What does the Uzbekistan defence and being 3-0 up have to do with his pace? I referenced that game (the run and finish for the 2-0) as evidence that he can obviously still out run defenders in certain situations.

 

[Fortitude]

“My work here is done. Next stop? Wherever there is a golden generation, I shall be there.”

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You keep moving goalposts. What does the Uzbekistan defence and being 3-0 up have to do with his pace? I referenced that game (the run and finish for the 2-0) as evidence that he can obviously still out run defenders in certain situations.

Because he's slow as feck now and can't maintain even his slow terrible speed for more than 20ish meters now.

Running from here:


Is completely different from running from the centre circle as in the example you showed previously:


Ronaldo has routinely been caught when put through because he doesn't have the pace anymore - and that's why this situation you cited earlier is not actually a threatening one in any way, shape, or form: