[Teja]

What direction? He is not taking us any direction. He is keeping us where we are when he took over. This is Manchester fecking United. Not Cardiff or Molde. We should be challenging for trophies. Any good manager would not have us playing this silly kind of football and being unable to handle basic tactics of the opposing team. He should be sacked as is any manager who is not good at game management. Why should he kept if he not good at tactics, coaching and game management?

His starting tactics are usually on-point in big games as you can tell from his record. I at least see a part of his vision, we're pressing fairly consistently and well - we went from a team that drops off after losing possession (under Mourinho) to a modern team that tries to force the opposition team to pass to the flanks and tries to cut off the passing options once they're there. I think we counter attack fluidly as well. The players still like Ole and play for him, where as with other coaches you could tell that they were just kind of going through the motions a bit.

The dreary bit is the business of breaking down teams once we actually press and win the ball back. We can't seam to cut open an organized defence that plays two banks of four and unless a team over commits to attack or gives the ball away in a dangerous area, we can't really do much. Part of it is not having any creativity in the midfield, but it's probably partly coaching / tactics as well.

Re: Game Management, Fergie was never great at adapting quickly either, and part of that responsibility rests on Carrick / Phelan / McKenna as well. I think they're still growing as coaches so I'm willing to wait and watch.

 

[Withnail]

I don't agree at all Arsenil have a better team than us. 1 win in their last 16 games and their first home win in 3 months goes a long way to suggest that.

It's been said before but what won them the game was a combination of 2 things. Tactics and them wanting it more than us. You could say it was the new managers bounce but Arsenil got their tactics spot on. They moved as a unit, knew when to press, know when to stay back, knew when to counter. We didn't. It's that simple.

They most definitely had a better midfield than us.

However, I had a feeling that given both teams confidence levels and being more comfortable on the counter whoever got the first one was going to go on and win it.

 

[Munkehboi]

Hate to say this but the home team played with an intensity and hunger to win the ball and play with tempo that actually reminded me of an old Fergie Utd team.

The away team on the other hand - one dimensional, can play on the counter and nothing else, lacked passion and drive.

 

[fps]

I don't agree at all Arsenil have a better team than us. 1 win in their last 16 games and their first home win in 3 months goes a long way to suggest that.

It's been said before but what won them the game was a combination of 2 things. Tactics and them wanting it more than us. You could say it was the new managers bounce but Arsenil got their tactics spot on. They moved as a unit, knew when to press, know when to stay back, knew when to counter. We didn't. It's that simple.

But that’s their form, not their personnel. They certainly wanted it more though.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Lindelof had a hand in both goals. When we first signed him i thought he was terrible. Then he was playing decently and I thought i was wrong. But in the end, overall he's not good enough. Maguire isn't VVD but i still rate him. But would it kill him to score a header ffs!

 

[NewGlory]

Can't shake off this image of how our entire defense shit their beds during the first goal. At least, in the second goal it was mostly De Gea, but in the first goal, just a look at this image:

1. Both Matic and Shaw are completely out of position, failing to mark Ozil and Pepe respectively, looking the opposite way instead. Of course completely free Pepe ends up being the one who eventually scores. And why would he not - he had all the space to.
2. Maguire spent entire time being too far behind, breaking the offside line and allowing Kolasinac the run-in.
3. Lindelof should have kicked the ball to the corner, instead or ricochetting it directly to Pepe
4. Fred was useless, crowding AWB's space, instead of covering some area where he would be more useful

So, basically out of 4 defenders and 2 midfielders, only AWB was not being a total idiot. He get passed by, but at least he wasn't being an idiot and that's the best you can say about our defense here. Simply incredible.

And below is the moment before the one up (arrows marking where the players should have been), showing how out of position defense is and why the run-in was even possible. It's like they are all fascinated to stare at the fecking ball, instead of analyzing the proper positions and paying attention to the attacking players. Total amateur hour

 

[USREDEVIL]

Can't shake off this image of how our entire defense shit their beds during the first goal. At least, in the second goal it was mostly De Gea, but in the first goal, just a look at this image:

1. Both Matic and Shaw are completely out of position, failing to mark Ozil and Pepe respectively, looking the opposite way instead. Of course completely free Pepe ends up being the one who eventually scores. And why would he not - he had all the space to.
2. Maguire spent entire time being too far behind, breaking the offside line and allowing Kolasinac the run-in.
3. Lindelof should have kicked the ball to the corner, instead or ricochetting it directly to Pepe
4. Fred was useless, crowding AWB's space, instead of covering some area where he would be more useful

So, basically out of 4 defenders and 2 midfielders, only AWB was not being a total idiot. He get passed by, but at least he wasn't being an idiot and that's the best you can say about our defense here. Simply incredible.

Matic FFS. Looks like he's positioning only to have a good view of the goal. What's he doing?!

 

[NewGlory]

Matic FFS. Looks like he's positioning only to have a good view of the goal. What's he doing?!

Exactly! Like he is a fecking spectator. Just infuriating

 

[Forevergiggs1]

They most definitely had a better midfield than us.

However, I had a feeling that given both teams confidence levels and being more comfortable on the counter whoever got the first one was going to go on and win it.

Xhaka and Torreria are at the very best = to Fred and Matic not forgetting our 2 CMs both had decent games.

But that’s their form, not their personnel. They certainly wanted it more though.

Fair enough. I think we have a better defence than them and there's not much between the 2 CMs. Up top is maybe a bit of a grey area. Even though Pepe cost 70m and James cost 15m this season I think there's very little between the 2 although I do think Pepe has a lot higher ceiling. Lacazette and Martial if both are on their game, is there a lot of difference between the 2? Auba is the obvious standout but for me other than wanting it more Arsenil had Ozil who probably had his best game in a long time.

Maybe I was being a little harsh with saying we had a better team. As with both sides it all depends on what players show up on the day.

 

[Withnail]

Xhaka and Torreria are at the very best = to Fred and Matic not forgetting our 2 CMs both had decent games.

You're not going to convince me that any starting midfielder for any of the PL clubs is as bad as Matic, I'm afraid.

Fred was good but Matic left him isolated and he was a one man midfield at times.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

You're not going to convince me that any starting midfielder for any of the PL clubs is as bad as Matic, I'm afraid.

Fred was good but Matic left him isolated and he was a one man midfield at times.

Wasn't that long ago that Xhaka was getting booed by his own fans for his performances. I haven't seen much of Torreria but what I have seen he doesn't look much more than a bruiser with not much footballing ability. It's true Matic and his legs aren't in sync but he's been far from our worst player the last couple of games and he's actually one of the few players we have who can split teams with his passing.

 

[Withnail]

Wasn't that long ago that Xhaka was getting booed by his own fans for his performances. I haven't seen much of Torreria but what I have seen he doesn't look much more than a bruiser with not much footballing ability. It's true Matic and his legs aren't in sync but he's been far from our worst player the last couple of games and he's actually one of the few players we have who can split teams with his passing.

They were both up for it, as were the whole team, and played well against us with Torreira breaking things up and Xhaka looking decent on the ball. I don't expect either of them to keep up that level of performance for very long by the way.

Matic was decent enough against an abject Burnley who were more interested in kicking lumps out of us then attempting to play football, I'll give you that.

He's willing enough but as you say his legs are gone and he's a passenger at best against most teams.

Our strikers were crying out for someone to pick a killer pass against Arsenal and he certainly didn't deliver.

 

[oreon]

His starting tactics are usually on-point in big games as you can tell from his record. I at least see a part of his vision, we're pressing fairly consistently and well - we went from a team that drops off after losing possession (under Mourinho) to a modern team that tries to force the opposition team to pass to the flanks and tries to cut off the passing options once they're there. I think we counter attack fluidly as well. The players still like Ole and play for him, where as with other coaches you could tell that they were just kind of going through the motions a bit.

The dreary bit is the business of breaking down teams once we actually press and win the ball back. We can't seam to cut open an organized defence that plays two banks of four and unless a team over commits to attack or gives the ball away in a dangerous area, we can't really do much. Part of it is not having any creativity in the midfield, but it's probably partly coaching / tactics as well.

Re: Game Management, Fergie was never great at adapting quickly either, and part of that responsibility rests on Carrick / Phelan / McKenna as well. I think they're still growing as coaches so I'm willing to wait and watch.

What's the point of waiting ? So in 2 years we can realize we need another change of manager. The game has changed, you need a coach who has a clear system of how he wants his team to play. Look at Chelsea with less time Lampard was able to implement a system and a style of play that you can visibly point to.
LVG said it best there's no difference on how Mourinho and Ole set up except for Ole has his team press more. But the underline philosophy is the same, win the ball and attack in transition. I don't think playing that way works anymore, you can see Mourinho is struggling right now.
Ole is by no means the problem but he's not a solution. It'd be best to move on from him. Bring in another manager who has system of play. And more importantly a DOF with a hstory of great scouting and let the two pair work in tandem to rebuild the squad.
I don't think we should wait and hope that it works out. Bring in proven experience in scouting and modern football, and work from there.

 

[meninred]

both goals came from not defending second balls.But this happens in football . it was the overall performance that was a concern.
Arsenal has more energy and intensity than Utd. I read that Arteta told them to run more than was within the last few seasons.
But Ole was not able to change that

 

[Isotope]

We lost 2-0. So it's not just defending we're rubbish.

Although tbh, I don't really get the hysteria of us losing to Arsenal on away game. The score was respectable, and I honestly think they have better players in midfield and especially in attack. None of our players in midfield and attack would get into theirs. Well, maybe Rashford at a push.

 

[BergkamptoOvermars]

Xhaka and Torreria are at the very best = to Fred and Matic not forgetting our 2 CMs both had decent games.




Fair enough. I think we have a better defence than them and there's not much between the 2 CMs. Up top is maybe a bit of a grey area. Even though Pepe cost 70m and James cost 15m this season I think there's very little between the 2 although I do think Pepe has a lot higher ceiling. Lacazette and Martial if both are on their game, is there a lot of difference between the 2? Auba is the obvious standout but for me other than wanting it more Arsenil had Ozil who probably had his best game in a long time.

Maybe I was being a little harsh with saying we had a better team. As with both sides it all depends on what players show up on the day.

Arsenal are a much better balanced team and squad despite spending less more. Our position in the table is due to off field issues and the fallout from Emery tenure.

United have only finished above Arsenal once in the last 7 years.

 

[Teja]

What's the point of waiting ? So in 2 years we can realize we need another change of manager. The game has changed, you need a coach who has a clear system of how he wants his team to play. Look at Chelsea with less time Lampard was able to implement a system and a style of play that you can visibly point to.
LVG said it best there's no difference on how Mourinho and Ole set up except for Ole has his team press more. But the underline philosophy is the same, win the ball and attack in transition. I don't think playing that way works anymore, you can see Mourinho is struggling right now.
Ole is by no means the problem but he's not a solution. It'd be best to move on from him. Bring in another manager who has system of play. And more importantly a DOF with a hstory of great scouting and let the two pair work in tandem to rebuild the squad.
I don't think we should wait and hope that it works out. Bring in proven experience in scouting and modern football, and work from there.

We have to agree to disagree then, I think the tactical system we have is fine, we need some personnel changes, some luck in the transfer market (need to spot Salah / Mane players like Liverpool have) and some improvement in our younger players which will happen naturally due to game-time - seriously just look at Rashford / James / Martial / McTominay this season.

Transfers wise, we're clearly very short on depth and quality in some positions but I'm happy we haven't knee-jerked it in Jan and are purely looking at it from a longer term perspective.

Overall, I'm pretty optimistic despite the loss. I was a lot more gloomy after we lost to Watford than now.

 

[Andrew Richmond]

For me there was no surprises in the performance or the result.

Disappointing yes, surprising no.

 

[mu4c_20le]

We lost 2-0. So it's not just defending we're rubbish.

Although tbh, I don't really get the hysteria of us losing to Arsenal on away game. The score was respectable, and I honestly think they have better players in midfield and especially in attack. None of our players in midfield and attack would get into theirs. Well, maybe Rashford at a push.

They have a better 10, but their midfield isn't that impressive, they just raised their game and had us on the backfoot. Our forwards had that problem again where they needed 3 touches to control the ball, which made it really easy for Toreria and Xhaka to close them down. I think even if SAF were managing us, this would be one of those games where we get dominated for 80 minutes and squeeze out a later winner or something. They played out of their skins.

 

[RedBanker]

1. Ole is an utterly limited manager. Not United class. Not PL class even. 2020 nothing has changed. Don't feel any bitterness towards Ole now. He is here to stay. He isn't walking nor getting fired. This is us now.
2. Arteta has come in with a plan and within 10 days his drills are clearly visible on field. He seemingly does not need 5 transfer windows and rebuilds etc.
3. Our players don't give a damn about passion for the badge and winning. Of course they have no clear instructions as to what to do and how to do it either.
4. We will win 20 percent of the remaining PL matches. Rest an even draw-loss share. Get your calculations as to where we will end up after 38 games. My estimate is 12 to 14.
5. Our so called attacking trident is average at best. And James is not becoming a great player any time soon.
6. If Ole and the management has accepted and embraced mediocrity then it would be best to bench all non performing seniors and play only youth. At least it will be refreshing and the obvious losses/draws will not pinch so much. Bring in Gomes Garner and whoever is there.
7. Harry Maguire. Did Leicester just pull off the con of the century? Seems so.

 

[thepolice123]

Can't shake off this image of how our entire defense shit their beds during the first goal. At least, in the second goal it was mostly De Gea, but in the first goal, just a look at this image:

1. Both Matic and Shaw are completely out of position, failing to mark Ozil and Pepe respectively, looking the opposite way instead. Of course completely free Pepe ends up being the one who eventually scores. And why would he not - he had all the space to.
2. Maguire spent entire time being too far behind, breaking the offside line and allowing Kolasinac the run-in.
3. Lindelof should have kicked the ball to the corner, instead or ricochetting it directly to Pepe
4. Fred was useless, crowding AWB's space, instead of covering some area where he would be more useful

So, basically out of 4 defenders and 2 midfielders, only AWB was not being a total idiot. He get passed by, but at least he wasn't being an idiot and that's the best you can say about our defense here. Simply incredible.

And below is the moment before the one up (arrows marking where the players should have been), showing how out of position defense is and why the run-in was even possible. It's like they are all fascinated to stare at the fecking ball, instead of analyzing the proper positions and paying attention to the attacking players. Total amateur hour

You're showing a analysing an image which doesn't really paint the full picture. And even so Matic and Shaw are positioned correctly. When the ball is so close to the box, you need to focus more on the zone instead of man-marking. With their positioning it is nearly impossible for Kolasinc to get the ball to them unless he gets a deflection which eventually happened. If Kolasinc drills the ball into the 6 yard box Shaw would be the first to cut it out, we wouldn't even be talking about positioning. It looked like bad defending because the cross got deflected, which is really just the case.

 

[Isotope]

They have a better 10, but their midfield isn't that impressive, they just raised their game and had us on the backfoot. Our forwards had that problem again where they needed 3 touches to control the ball, which made it really easy for Toreria and Xhaka to close them down. I think even if SAF were managing us, this would be one of those games where we get dominated for 80 minutes and squeeze out a later winner or something. They played out of their skins.

Their midfield isn't that impressive but it's better than (a tired) Fred and Matic. And combined with their 10x better AM.
And it's common for the home team to play out of their skin also.

 

[Buster15]

Hate to say this but the home team played with an intensity and hunger to win the ball and play with tempo that actually reminded me of an old Fergie Utd team.

The away team on the other hand - one dimensional, can play on the counter and nothing else, lacked passion and drive.

Intensity and hunger should be a basic minimum for any professional football team.
Every player should always give the maximum effort.

Obviously individual form will not always be 100% and quality of play can drop.
But to not always try to be first to the ball is inexcusable.

 

[NewGlory]

"Because we are not in medieval times" In case somebody wonders whether Ole ever gets mad. He WAS mad As for the main point – qhether you like Ole or not – he has a point. It's 2020 and yelling at modern players won't get you anywhere.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Red00012]

"Because we are not in medieval times" In case somebody wonders whether Ole ever gets mad. He WAS mad As for the main point – qhether you like Ole or not – he has a point. It's 2020 and yelling at modern players won't get you anywhere.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Feels like Medieval times when Lingard last played a decent game. When couldn’t RVP just mention that.

 

[mu4c_20le]

"Because we are not in medieval times" In case somebody wonders whether Ole ever gets mad. He WAS mad As for the main point – qhether you like Ole or not – he has a point. It's 2020 and yelling at modern players won't get you anywhere.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Burn!

 

[gerdm07]

Can't shake off this image of how our entire defense shit their beds during the first goal. At least, in the second goal it was mostly De Gea, but in the first goal, just a look at this image:

1. Both Matic and Shaw are completely out of position, failing to mark Ozil and Pepe respectively, looking the opposite way instead. Of course completely free Pepe ends up being the one who eventually scores. And why would he not - he had all the space to.
2. Maguire spent entire time being too far behind, breaking the offside line and allowing Kolasinac the run-in.
3. Lindelof should have kicked the ball to the corner, instead or ricochetting it directly to Pepe
4. Fred was useless, crowding AWB's space, instead of covering some area where he would be more useful

So, basically out of 4 defenders and 2 midfielders, only AWB was not being a total idiot. He get passed by, but at least he wasn't being an idiot and that's the best you can say about our defense here. Simply incredible.

And below is the moment before the one up (arrows marking where the players should have been), showing how out of position defense is and why the run-in was even possible. It's like they are all fascinated to stare at the fecking ball, instead of analyzing the proper positions and paying attention to the attacking players. Total amateur hour

In the first image where do you geniuses think Matic should be? I think he is in a good position because he has taken passing lane away.

Shaw is also in a good position IMO. No one is attacking the far post so he should be about where he is, maybe a little more central. He definitely should not be in line with the others.

The second image is the real problem. Maguire put him onside and Lindelof is too slow to react. Fred also did not follow the run. I guess Lindelof thought Fred would get there but that's too much to ask. Lindelof should be a little closer to AWB and Maguire should be in line and linked with Lindelof. The flat-back 4 is out of shape.

 

[NewGlory]

In the first image where do you geniuses think Matic should be? I think he is in a good position because he has taken passing lane away.

Shaw is also in a good position IMO. No one is attacking the far post so he should be about where he is, maybe a little more central. He definitely should not be in line with the others.

The second image is the real problem. Maguire put him onside and Lindelof is too slow to react. Fred also did not follow the run. I guess Lindelof thought Fred would get there but that's too much to ask. Lindelof should be a little closer to AWB and Maguire should be in line and linked with Lindelof. The flat-back 4 is out of shape.

I agree, second image (which actually chronologically happened first - sorry for the confusion) is when they allowed attack to unleash and the mistakes there are pretty obvious.

As for first image and "where we geniuses think" Matic and Shaw should have been instead:

1. They are both with their backs to Ozil and Pepe respectively, so they have no idea where these two are moving and therefore unable to defend.
2. Yes, in this frozen frame Matic is blocking the passing lane in that moment but things are not static on the field, attackers move around so the next moment the man he's marking will slip into a different, open position and he will lose him. Kolasinic doesn't have to pass exactly where Pepe or Ozil is right now, he can pass into an open space not blocked by Matic, which Ozil can easily slip into and Matic is immediately taken out of game.
3. Which is exactly what happened to Shaw. Pepe slipped into an open space and scored goal and Shaw could do feck nothing about it.

So no - neither Matic nor Shaw were doing any blocking of the pass that was effective. The only defender that is blocking a pass there was Lindelof. Of course he was lousy at it, allowed the ball to ricochet off his foot and immediately Pepe intercepted it.

Matic and Shaw should have picked up Ozil and Pepe and should have tracked them more closely. Instead they allowed them all the space in the world to roam around and do whatever. As soon as Pepe got a chance to get the ball, it was turned into a goal. It's way too late to do "positional" defense when attackers are this close to the goal line. You gotta pick them up, otherwise they move in and out of open spaces and you become useless. Which is, again, exactly what happened to Shaw vs. Pepe.

 

[NewGlory]

Intensity and hunger should be a basic minimum for any professional football team.
Every player should always give the maximum effort.

Obviously individual form will not always be 100% and quality of play can drop.
But to not always try to be first to the ball is inexcusable.

That is what I hated about this game. It was the first game this season when United didn't have that basic minimum of intensity and hunger. In contrast, every other game we lost this season (even the Watford disaster) was about form and quality.

The last time players didn't gave intensity and hunger was during Mourinho (and maybe end of season last year, but we all chalked it off at deadwood players + exhaustion). We thought we had fixed the intensity and hunger problem. Sigh

 

[gerdm07]

I agree, second image (which actually chronologically happened first - sorry for the confusion) is when they allowed attack to unleash and the mistakes there are pretty obvious.

As for first image and "where we geniuses think" Matic and Shaw should have been instead:

1. They are both with their backs to Ozil and Pepe respectively, so they have no idea where these two are moving and therefore unable to defend.
2. Yes, in this frozen frame Matic is blocking the passing lane in that moment but things are not static on the field, attackers move around so the next moment the man he's marking will slip into a different, open position and he will lose him. Kolasinic doesn't have to pass exactly where Pepe or Ozil is right now, he can pass into an open space not blocked by Matic, which Ozil can easily slip into and Matic is immediately taken out of game.
3. Which is exactly what happened to Shaw. Pepe slipped into an open space and scored goal and Shaw could do feck nothing about it.

So no - neither Matic nor Shaw were doing any blocking of the pass that was effective. The only defender that is blocking a pass there was Lindelof. Of course he was lousy at it, allowed the ball to ricochet off his foot and immediately Pepe intercepted it.

Matic and Shaw should have picked up Ozil and Pepe and should have tracked them more closely. Instead they allowed them all the space in the world to roam around and do whatever. As soon as Pepe got a chance to get the ball, it was turned into a goal. It's way too late to do "positional" defense when attackers are this close to the goal line. You gotta pick them up, otherwise they move in and out of open spaces and you become useless. Which is, again, exactly what happened to Shaw vs. Pepe.

Your original post said "Both Matic and Shaw are completely out of position, failing to mark Ozil and Pepe respectively" which is wrong. They should not be marking individuals, they should be marking space and cutting out passing lanes which is what they are doing. Yes, they should be more aware of where Ozil and Pepe are going. I'm fine with the defense at this point and they scored because of an unfortunate ricochet off Lindelof. IMO if the players followed your arrows they would really be out of position.

Like I said, I'm not fine with their positioning in the second image before the pass is made to Kolasinic. A flat-back four should move together and be linked with the one defender pressuring the ball and the closest providing cover. Basically think (S Shaw, M Maguire, L Lindelof, A AWB)

.............................ball
......................... A
S......M......L

We were more like

..................................A
S................L
.........M

The diagram is not accurate, though, because S and L were too closely lined up with A. L was definitely too far from A. S and L should have been line up with M. Ole will be pissed when he sees the photo.

In summary Maguire was in pretty good position, Lindelof is not close enough to AWB and is not appropriately diagonal to him to give cover. This is why Kolasini has too much space when he gets the ball. Maybe Lindelof was thinking Fred would provide cover but that's faulty thinking because Fred was too far away.

Regardless, once the pass is made Lindelof should provide immediate pressure to the ball and Fred should move back to provide cover for him. AWB should track back where Fred vacated. If Lindelof gives better pressure the pass likely doesn't get by him for the goal.

 

[Buster15]

That is what I hated about this game. It was the first game this season when United didn't have that basic minimum of intensity and hunger. In contrast, every other game we lost this season (even the Watford disaster) was about form and quality.

The last time players didn't gave intensity and hunger was during Mourinho (and maybe end of season last year, but we all chalked it off at deadwood players + exhaustion). We thought we had fixed the intensity and hunger problem. Sigh

And I can well understand that sigh.
For me, it just seems too easy for individual players and sometimes the team in general to just go through the motions but not be fully committed.

And when they do, there are nothing like enough consequences.
The same players still get selected.
I realise that the squad is paper thin.
But that must never be an excuse for underperformance.

 

[mitchmouse]

I’ll take Van Persie’s word that they were good runs over yours cheers

and do you take everything he said... and by the way rio said the opposite