[pelterz]

Running through are midfield is so so easy for teams. We are so easy to play against, the opposition just need to stop us scoring (thats the hard part) Then take the many chances we give them.
Get wharton and baleba in midfield and we will be a decent team, i fear this is another season of no silver ware and probably no Europe qualification.

Expecting silverware from 15th?

 

[Waywestofthere]

That is some prime Everton fan mentality, mate. How far have we fallen that playing Basketball 4-4 with fecking Bournemouth, at the Theater of Dreams is "entertaining"


Thank God, somebody still has standards. I see you, mate

We can’t all be as miserable as you, I guess. I’ll try harder.

 

[Ludens the Red]

The tactical setup changed part way through the second half, which made us much more open, I agree with that. This was partly personnel too, as Mainoo came on and that always makes us more porous.

Still though, the goals Bournemouth were down to player errors rather than the tactical setup. The first was a comedy of errors from Shaw and Heaven, the second was again Heaven not tracking a run (Casemiro was screening the defence at the time), the third was down to a terrible pass from Dalot that set Bournemouth away. The 4th was a midfield issue I agree, that was due to Mainoo abandoning his position to try to win a ball that had long gone.

There isn't a system in the world that can handle defenders forgetting how to defend, which is what happened last night. What's "absolutely insane" is trying to make everything a stick to bash the manager and system with. Especially when the system changed to something most of the forum has been calling out for, and that made us more vulnerable.

Yeah they were errors but my point is that the set up exasperates the errors. Like I just don’t see Bournemouth scoring those goals if the centre is better protected. Theres just too much space to run into in this donut system.

Ultimately you can try and isolate it to individual defender errors if you want but 68 goals conceded in 43 under Amorim tells you the problem is tactical.

So long as I’m breathing I will bash Amorim. I think he’s an awful coach and detrimental to the club I’ve supported for 30 years. He turned up a year ago, I couldn’t care less about him.

I think people are overstating this formation change. It was basically a 343/325 if you wanna be picky as Amad basically pushed up higher than he normally does and Dalot was slightly further back (check position map). The only obvious change was when Martinez came on and it kinda resembled a 442.

And anyway our worse period of the game was after half time whilst we were still in the 343 shape. So not sure what change it is that “the forum clamoured for” that you think made us more vulnerable. I also don’t remember this forum calling out for a 442. They’ve mostly clamoured for 3 in midfield which did not happen at any point during the game.

 

[The Hilton]

So long as I’m breathing I will bash Amorim.

This is all you need to post, not that it wasn't obvious beforehand. There's no debate to be had here as you're completely entrenched in your position, and reality is warped so that everything becomes a stick to bash the manager with.

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Amorim, but the idea that switching to a 433 will miraculously solve our problems is nothing short of fantasy.

 

[NewGlory]

We can’t all be as miserable as you, I guess. I’ll try harder.

How old are you? Three?

Hopefully by the time you are in kindergarten, they will teach how to communicate your thoughts better

 

[Posh Red]

That is some prime Everton fan mentality, mate. How far have we fallen that playing Basketball 4-4 with fecking Bournemouth, at the Theater of Dreams is "entertaining"


Thank God, somebody still has standards. I see you, mate

Ironic that the last time we drew 4 4 was against Everton under Ferguson.

If you want to be incessantly miserable then you do you. Don’t criticise others for not being miserable as well, though.

 

[Waywestofthere]

How old are you? Three?

Hopefully by the time you are in kindergarten, they will teach how to communicate your thoughts better

You should read your reply again.

 

[adkb]

We are one of the top scoring teams in the league. Last season we couldn't score a goal even if our life depended on it. Those sayin 4-4 basket ball game is everton level are completely losing the context of this team. The team is playing more like an unit and there are clear improvements in players mentality. A few more signings and we will be good to go.
It's like people here skip the last 8 years of our existence and just expect miracles to happen.

 

[Ludens the Red]

This is all you need to post, not that it wasn't obvious beforehand. There's no debate to be had here as you're completely entrenched in your position, and reality is warped so that everything becomes a stick to bash the manager with.

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Amorim, but the idea that switching to a 433 will miraculously solve our problems is nothing short of fantasy.

Reality is warped? The thing is I see it so clearly. I have no allegiance to Amorim. Being entrenched in a position regarding your overall stance on an individual does not mean there are no logical debates to be had. I’ve literally explained using facts why our midfield creates issues to our defensive core.

If I sat here and said I had a similar stance about Woodward or the Glazers or Onana or any other shite signing we’ve made you wouldnt bat an eyelid.
Why are we so obsessed as a fanbase with putting the managerial position on a pedestal. Most people gave up on Onana in less than fifty games. Most people gave up Woodward in less than a few transfer windows. Why is it different for Amorim?

I also never said switching to 433 will miraculously solve our problems either. You tried to claim that the forum clamoured for a system change that supposedly happened during the Bournemouth game. When the change was a 442 which I’ve seen absolutely nobody clamour for. I also see from your other discussion in the thread that you still won’t attribute the midfield as a causation for poor overall defending.

Makes it all the more ironic you claim that my reality is warped …

 

[The Hilton]

Reality is warped? The thing is I see it so clearly. I have no allegiance to Amorim. Being entrenched in a position regarding your overall stance on an individual does not mean there are no logical debates to be had. I’ve literally explained using facts why our midfield creates issues to our defensive core.

If I sat here and said I had a similar stance about Woodward or the Glazers or Onana or any other shite signing we’ve made you wouldnt bat an eyelid.
Why are we so obsessed as a fanbase with putting the managerial position on a pedestal. Most people gave up on Onana in less than fifty games. Most people gave up Woodward in less than a few transfer windows. Why is it different for Amorim?

I also never said switching to 433 will miraculously solve our problems either. You tried to claim that the forum clamoured for a system change that supposedly happened during the Bournemouth game. When the change was a 442 which I’ve seen absolutely nobody clamour for. I also see from your other discussion in the thread that you still won’t attribute the midfield as a causation for poor overall defending.

Makes it all the more ironic you claim that my reality is warped …

Your use of words like "literally" and facts" is very liberal, to put it mildly.

You're looking at everything through the lens of "Amorim bad", you've stated as much directly yourself. That's neither logical, nor rational. Your opinion on this topic, and everything else, is informed by your dislike of the manager rather than reality, which means there's no debate to be had.

 

[Oranges038]

I'm not absolving the midfield, I've stated very clearly that the 4th goal is primarily the fault of a midfielder in Mainoo.

You're trying to blame the second goal on the midfield though, when Casemiro was directly between the assister and the defence. And same with the 3rd, which came about due to a poor pass, when the midfield was set for possession. It just isn't accurate.

Bournemouth's midfielders only made 2 tackles, and didn't complete a single successful dribble between them, so you may want to view more stats to get a better picture. Plus, checking whoscored just now, they have 4 total tackles between them and 8 clearances. Tavenier and Adams, the Bournemouth midfield, have 2 and 2 respectively.

The second half was definitely worse, but that's partly because Mainoo came on for Casemiro, and he contributed nothing off the ball. But the other goals were down to basic defensive errors, with a more experienced CB in place of Heaven we're significantly less likely to concede all of them.

For the goals the ball was given away 50-60 yards away from the Utd goal. That shouldn't result in a free run at the back line with all the midfield players just being bypassed with ease.

You can blame the defence all you like, but when you give the ball away like that and there is zero protection in front of the defenders from midfield. A more experienced center back is still going to be exposed with that in front of them, we've already seen it this season with Maguire, De Ligt it doesn't matter who is at the back when they get zero help from the midfield in transition when the ball is lost. Teams just run at from all angles.

Put a player like Caicedo in front of that defence and those goals probably don't happen, more so than an experienced defender, but continue with a legless player and a headless player in a two and they will happen time and time again.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Your use of words like "literally" and facts" is very liberal, to put it mildly.

You're looking at everything through the lens of "Amorim bad", you've stated as much directly yourself. That's neither logical, nor rational. Your opinion on this topic, and everything else, is informed by your dislike of the manager rather than reality, which means there's no debate to be had.

Except it actually isn’t. I listed factual things. They weren’t opinions. The facts formed the basis for the opinions.

- The positional graph showed Bournemouth piled players into the centre of the pitch - FACT

- Our positional graph showed no radical change from 343 - FACT

- Manchester United have conceded 68 goals in 43 league games under Amorim indicating there are underlying problems defensively - FACT

I didn’t make up those graphs, opta did. I didn’t make up that defensive record. Manchester United did.

Amorim is inadequate so most of my opinions on him will be down to him being inadequate. If he does something well I will praise him for it as I did at Anfield, as I have when he goes for the Mount-Cunha-Mbeumo trio. As I have for improvement in set pieces. But when most of the things he does are bad the consequence is I’m going to criticise him.

Most people who dislike him, dislike him due to his actions and management of the football club, it isn’t the other way round. We didn’t decide on the day he arrived that he was totally inflexible, lacking tactical nous, lacking defensive organisation, poor with the academy players and displays poor levels of confidence on the touchline. These were things he displayed over the year and a bit of his presence here which caused people to dislike him as Manchester United manager.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

We are one of the top scoring teams in the league. Last season we couldn't score a goal even if our life depended on it. Those sayin 4-4 basket ball game is everton level are completely losing the context of this team. The team is playing more like an unit and there are clear improvements in players mentality. A few more signings and we will be good to go.
It's like people here skip the last 8 years of our existence and just expect miracles to happen.

Its confusing at times to know what people are actually debating and what they are arguing for. But you cannot claim 'the team is playing as a unit' at the same time as defending a 4-4 draw. While we had more chances overall, Bournemouth carved us open numerous times and could have easily won it at the end. In fact, both teams had 9 shots on target. Whilst the main debate here seems bizarrely whether to blame a midfielder or the defense for several of the goals, that debate highlights that the team was explicitly not playing 'as a unit'. The defense itself was disorganised, and even with our first choice CBs, we struggle to defend the 6 yard box, and the midfield often fails to cover effectively. Ultimately this is about coaching rather than individuals. There were some good attacking passages of play on Monday, but most of goals still come from individual brilliance or short interchanges.

I dont think anyone is 'expecting miracles to happen'. But a genuine top class coach can improve the players at their disposal and make the whole more than the sum of the parts. I see no sign of that with Amorim, and after the first season it was clearly not the case with ETH. A good manager doesn't need 2 years and £0.5bn to deliver a team that can play decent football.

 

[Hound Dog]

Ironic that the last time we drew 4 4 was against Everton under Ferguson.

If you want to be incessantly miserable then you do you. Don’t criticise others for not being miserable as well, though.

In a game that ended up granting City the 2012 title, no less.

 

[Krysen]

It’s hard to believe we let in four goals. We should’ve won that game.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

We swallowed 4 vs Bournemouth because we played with risk, whilst trying out a new tactical trick with Kids as our cbs. If that left you despondent, angry and miserable. You just love misery.....

 

[The Hilton]

Except it actually isn’t. I listed factual things. They weren’t opinions. The facts formed the basis for the opinions.

- The positional graph showed Bournemouth piled players into the centre of the pitch - FACT

- Our positional graph showed no radical change from 343 - FACT

- Manchester United have conceded 68 goals in 43 league games under Amorim indicating there are underlying problems defensively - FACT

I didn’t make up those graphs, opta did. I didn’t make up that defensive record. Manchester United did.

Amorim is inadequate so most of my opinions on him will be down to him being inadequate. If he does something well I will praise him for it as I did at Anfield, as I have when he goes for the Mount-Cunha-Mbeumo trio. As I have for improvement in set pieces. But when most of the things he does are bad the consequence is I’m going to criticise him.

Most people who dislike him, dislike him due to his actions and management of the football club, it isn’t the other way round. We didn’t decide on the day he arrived that he was totally inflexible, lacking tactical nous, lacking defensive organisation, poor with the academy players and displays poor levels of confidence on the touchline. These were things he displayed over the year and a bit of his presence here which caused people to dislike him as Manchester United manager.

Are you able to provide the positional graphs of which you speak? Given how unreliable a narrator you are for what happened during the match, I don't accept your interpretation of a graph that may or may not exist.

 

[The Hilton]

For the goals the ball was given away 50-60 yards away from the Utd goal. That shouldn't result in a free run at the back line with all the midfield players just being bypassed with ease.

You can blame the defence all you like, but when you give the ball away like that and there is zero protection in front of the defenders from midfield. A more experienced center back is still going to be exposed with that in front of them, we've already seen it this season with Maguire, De Ligt it doesn't matter who is at the back when they get zero help from the midfield in transition when the ball is lost. Teams just run at from all angles.

Put a player like Caicedo in front of that defence and those goals probably don't happen, more so than an experienced defender, but continue with a legless player and a headless player in a two and they will happen time and time again.

The second goal wasn't a free run at the United back line, Casemiro was directly between the assister and the defence. You simply aren't reflecting reality for that one.

The third goal was due to a terrible pass that exposed us. Caicedo, or anyone else, is going to be caught out by it. Unless you expect one of the midfielders to literally always sit just in front of the defence, we'd always get caught out by that situation.

De Ligt for Heaven or Yoro last night and at least 2 of the Bournemouth goals never happen, probably 3.

 

[lex talionis]

It seems to me that the defensive problems against Bournemouth arose primarily from mistakes by inexperienced defenders, Heaven and Yoro. These two players have great careers ahead of them, but Yoro is struggling and Heaven still only 19 years old. Nights like this are necessary for their development, but it comes at a cost to us.

I'll join the hand wringing but we shouldn't cry too hard about the dropped points. With the slight tactical adjustment we were much more fluid in attack and should have scored more goals. And with experience, Yoro and Heaven will see danger earlier and shut it down.

Onward and upward!

 

[adkb]

Its confusing at times to know what people are actually debating and what they are arguing for. But you cannot claim 'the team is playing as a unit' at the same time as defending a 4-4 draw. While we had more chances overall, Bournemouth carved us open numerous times and could have easily won it at the end. In fact, both teams had 9 shots on target. Whilst the main debate here seems bizarrely whether to blame a midfielder or the defense for several of the goals, that debate highlights that the team was explicitly not playing 'as a unit'. The defense itself was disorganised, and even with our first choice CBs, we struggle to defend the 6 yard box, and the midfield often fails to cover effectively. Ultimately this is about coaching rather than individuals. There were some good attacking passages of play on Monday, but most of goals still come from individual brilliance or short interchanges.

I dont think anyone is 'expecting miracles to happen'. But a genuine top class coach can improve the players at their disposal and make the whole more than the sum of the parts. I see no sign of that with Amorim, and after the first season it was clearly not the case with ETH. A good manager doesn't need 2 years and £0.5bn to deliver a team that can play decent football.

The problem is we have had many top class coaches and we tend to fall in the same patterns. I think the problem is not simply coaches.

I agree that 4-4 is hardly anything to defend, but I am not talking only about this game. I am talking about since start of the season. There is clear plan, players are clearly showing up, although not consistently. I am curious to see if this continues, cause if it does, we are on the right path.

 

[Gordon'sHill]

The problem is we have had many top class coaches and we tend to fall in the same patterns. I think the problem is not simply coaches.

I agree that 4-4 is hardly anything to defend, but I am not talking only about this game. I am talking about since start of the season. There is clear plan, players are clearly showing up, although not consistently. I am curious to see if this continues, cause if it does, we are on the right path.

Have we really had 'so many top class coaches'? Moyes was a disaster, he's a mid-table PL manager. Nothing about him every suggested top class, Everton fans were happy to see him go. He's finally won a trophy after 25 years so fair play to him, but should never have been near the club. LVG was heading to retirement and was well past his prime, and always a difficult character even in his early days. Mourinho horribly toxic and again on a downward path when we hired him, as shown by his subsequent career path. Ole's coaching CV pre appointing him read Cardiff, relegated from PL with worst points total in history, then sacked. Top class? Finally we look at ETH who had some promise, but noone had rushed to take him from Ajax and ultimately he couldn't make the transition. Perhaps one of the more logical hires but always a risk. Then we have Amorim, very similar risk profile to ETH and with no achievements outside of Portugal. So to date, not 'top class', and the jury very much out.

So I think generally our history of managerial appointments post Fergie has been terrible. The myth we have had 'great' managers is not true. Sure there are other structural issues but show me a manager who has left United and done better elsewhere?

 

[lex talionis]

Have we really had 'so many top class coaches'? Moyes was a disaster, he's a mid-table PL manager. Nothing about him every suggested top class, Everton fans were happy to see him go. He's finally won a trophy after 25 years so fair play to him, but should never have been near the club. LVG was heading to retirement and was well past his prime, and always a difficult character even in his early days. Mourinho horribly toxic and again on a downward path when we hired him, as shown by his subsequent career path. Ole's coaching CV pre appointing him read Cardiff, relegated from PL with worst points total in history, then sacked. Top class? Finally we look at ETH who had some promise, but noone had rushed to take him from Ajax and ultimately he couldn't make the transition. Perhaps one of the more logical hires but always a risk. Then we have Amorim, very similar risk profile to ETH and with no achievements outside of Portugal. So to date, not 'top class', and the jury very much out.

So I think generally our history of managerial appointments post Fergie has been terrible. The myth we have had 'great' managers is not true. Sure there are other structural issues but show me a manager who has left United and done better elsewhere?

I could not agree with you more. Club management confused great resumes with great managers. Moyes didn't even have a great resume, but he was
a Scot so we hired him. Louis and Jose had great resumes, but their milk has spoiled. Ole didn't even have a great resume, but he was a club legend. EtH was just a bizarre choice...my take on him is that he knows the game in his head but he's incredibly poor communicator and man manager. And our current manager conquered...the Portuguese league.