[Gasolin]

The state of the BBC article on this game. "United win BUT Chelsea left with sense of injustice”

“Maguire scored BUT Chelsea felt aggrieved he was on the pitch”

“Being on the right side of decisions helped United do the double over Chelsea for the first time since 1988”

Then a link to an article on the side “United in the hunt for the top 4 – somehow”

The length some will go to undermine the result, really... pathetic from the media, as always. We have to build some momentum now to ignore those negative comments from them.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

So according to Owen Hargreaves (I know)... Fred has light shoved Azpulicueta with such force that he simply has to put two hands up in front of him to protect himself and shove over Williams.... but in turn Williams has made a meal out of the far more forceful shove that Azpulicueta gave him and bought the free kick.

#logic

If you notice the replay, Fred's "shove" is made with the back of his hand and his wrist. No one can generate much force with a motion like that. Azpilicueta, on the other hands, firmly plants both hands on Williams and then shoves him. Two totally different types of contact.

Hargreaves seems bitter that we dumped him for being a crock.

 

[onemanarmy]

The only big downside about last night was James imo. He's well off the pace at the moment, looks like a Sunday League footballer. He was much better first few months. Hopefully it's just a drop in form.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I have a suspicion that the game advertised might be the women's game. I only glanced at the TV. I know Chelsea have Spurs this weekend, then Liverpool in the cup.

Ahh right. Either way, one of them will drop points this week. Son of Spurs is also going to be out for a while.

 

[Gasolin]

Fernandes wont immediately cure our creativity problems. We've gone from having 0 creative midfielders to 1, and it's not that difficult to limit their space and availability as Jorginho did last night. Adding a Pogba or other creative players as we will do this summer will give opponents a much more difficult problem to solve.

Agree about James - he is struggling, but to be fair last night he was almost always doubled up on. He is going through what all young players go through at some point. The surprise element has gone and they've been largely figured out. He'll either kick on and adapt his game or go the same way as many do and we realise that he isnt quite cut out for the top level.

Agreed, but currently, we play with Matic as a 6 shielding the defense, Fred as a b2b tasked to be a bit everywhere to intercept and relaunch, recycle, and Bruno to try to create. All of that with the full backs going up to create, and Maguire to go up when we attack.

When Pogba comes back, we need to think how to make it work for both Bruno and himself, because as you said, we want to give headache to the opposition. Let's say we go for a DM / CAM / CAM type of structure, then the 2 CAM are Bruno and Pogba, but what about the DM? Can Fred be that DM? Otherwise, only Matic is natural enough to hold that position without getting taken out of position too easily.

Or maybe we stack up the midfield, with Matic, Fred, Bruno and Pogba as DM, B2B, CAM, CAM, and we give up on James and play with a solo. And both Bruno and Pogba are supposed to also get up there, I don't know... happy problems to have, but still problems to solve for us to win for Ole.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If you notice the replay, Fred's "shove" is made with the back of his hand and his wrist. No one can generate much force with a motion like that. Azpilicueta, on the other hands, firmly plants both hands on Williams and then shoves him. Two totally different types of contact.

Hargreaves seems bitter that we dumped him for being a crock.

With Hargreaves it depends who he is working for. When he is on BT he is pretty fair, elsewhere he takes the opposite view. Maybe it is when actually in this country he is scared he could bump into a few United fans.

 

[dove]

You mean the league with 4 teams in last year's UCL quarter-final with no other league having more than 1? It's not that bad, especially considering some of our best players are sidelined with injuries.

Key point here is "last year".

 

[El Zoido]

So according to Owen Hargreaves (I know)... Fred has light shoved Azpulicueta with such force that he simply has to put two hands up in front of him to protect himself and shove over Williams.... but in turn Williams has made a meal out of the far more forceful shove that Azpulicueta gave him and bought the free kick.

#logic

It’s such nonsense, the contact by Fred was virtually non-existent. It looked worse from the overhead view, but the reverse angle at ground level clearly showed that he barely touched him, and not enough for him to go crashing in to Williams. Both their goals were correctly chalked off. Without VAR we may well have lost, I doubt the media would have been painting that as such an injustice.

The only decision up for debate is Maguire’s kick out, and even that is marginal.

 

[Gasolin]

Ahh right. Either way, one of them will drop points this week. Son of Spurs is also going to be out for a while.

That is actually a big downside for Spurs, Kane and Son out, that's like taking out a big chunk of their attacking threat. I can only hope for a draw and us winning just to make them a bit nervous...

 

[always_hoping]

The main thing to come out of yesterday's match is that Ole has once again, earned himself a reprieve.
When he loses his next match, the wolves will be out again.

I hate bloody Wolves.

A positive record, for once.
But does this not make it all the more frustrating that we are struggling to score goals and to win matches.
We are so inconsistent.

Indeed and it will come as no shock if United drop points at home to Watford on Sunday.

 

[gerdm07]

Am I the only one who thought the 1st half was quality for both sides? I felt I was watching 2 top four teams go at it with very good passing, movement and skill. TBF, Chelsea probably were a little better. Also TBF, both teams were lacking that final 3rd quality as both sides carved out some good chances.

More proof that Martial is just not a smart enough player to be WC. In the 1st half Bruno put him through with only one defender in front of him. Martial first touch was not perfect in that the ball inside his left foot in his stride. Nothing wrong at this point as it was a quick play and he did control the ball pretty well, just didn't get it out of feet. Well, this is when his decision making is so bad. He shot with his left foot and, because the ball was central to him, the shot went very wide of the goal. A smarter player would have considered toeing with the left foot, hitting it with the outside of the left foot (Bruno could teach Martial this skill) or, in one fluid motion, guide the ball with the left for a right footed shot to the corner.

I fear none of these thoughts popped into his mind in that split second.

 

[MadDogg]

A foul is given where the initial contact took place which was outside the box so no, it shouldn't have been a penalty.

Unless the rule has been changed in the last two or three years (and I'm pretty damn certain it hasn't been), that's incorrect.

• If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area but continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee shall award a penalty kick.

That was the official rule, and it also makes sense.

Note that this is completely different than a foul that takes place outside the box and the attacker falls over when he's inside. That is still a freekick outside because the foul itself took place outside. In this case the foul itself was still continuing when Fred was inside the box, therefore it should have been a penalty.

 

[DVG7]

I thought last night was as good an example as we have had of team togetherness. To me, that means that behind the scenes on the training ground, the players are buying in. when LVG and Mourinho were under pressure, you didn't see that type of passion after goals, and that type of mentality when it came to protecting teammates.

I also thought we were outstanding defensively, particularly on the right side. Both AWB and Bailly had candidates for block of the season, and it came off the back of some very smart play by chelsea, who on another night could have scored 3 or 4. I wouldn't be so eager to shove Bailly next to Maguire in a 4-3-3 set up just yet, but with some security behind him it did seem to bring the best out of him. He makes us fun to watch at the back, if nothing else, and he deserves massive credit for being up to speed with the game,looked like he had been a mainstay in the team.

The work Fred is doing defensively reminds me of Kante, he just seems to find a way to get his body between man and ball. The best example was Pedro running back towards his own goal and Fred tracking him and eventually seeing the opportunity to nip in and take it. He is also very smart in the final third, and whilst his shooting leaves a lot to be desired, he's turning into a proper box to box player for us and at this point is almost indispensable. A midfield of Fred, Mctominay and Bruno has a LOT of potential.

We did ride our luck somewhat last night, and I also thought we were aided by Willian effectively playing like a man down for them, he was absolutely shocking all night.

Ighalo looked like he knew how to hold a ball up, and how to make a good run in behind, so good start for him too. There is a lot to like about this team at the moment!

 

[Gasolin]

Am I the only one who thought the 1st half was quality for both sides? I felt I was watching 2 top four teams go at it with very good passing, movement and skill. TBF, Chelsea probably were a little better. Also TBF, both teams were lacking that final 3rd quality as both sides carved out some good chances.

More proof that Martial is just not a smart enough player to be WC. In the 1st half Bruno put him through with only one defender in front of him. Martial first touch was not perfect in that the ball inside his left foot in his stride. Nothing wrong at this point as it was a quick play and he did control the ball pretty well, just didn't get it out of feet. Well, this is when his decision making is so bad. He shot with his left foot and, because the ball was central to him, the shot went very wide of the goal. A smarter player would have considered toeing with the left foot, hitting it with the outside of the left foot (Bruno could teach Martial this skill) or, in one fluid motion, guide the ball with the left for a right footed shot to the corner.

I fear none of these thoughts popped into his mind in that split second.

Bruno only does that for his right foot and it's his main foot. Martial is also a right footed player, doing what you describe wouldn't really result in any meaningful shot for him most of the time cause he wouldn't put enough power most likely. The best he should have tried was to curl it in with the right, because that left shot with the exterior you're talking about? It's harder even for lefties in my opinion.

 

[drdoityourself]

Even after this fantastic result I still feel playing with five at the back is overkill with this personnel. Martial and James weren't enough to threaten and we needed a nr. 9 between them.

With Wan-Bissaka so good defensively, Maguire in form with a quick and aggressive Bailly, playing both Shaw and Williams was a bit unneccesary,

But a great result but I hope we develop a more settled formation to use in every game. I've felt over the years that constantly switching formations has led to some good singular results but a very low ceiling of perfomances.

 

[Sea-Cow]

Honestly I think it's gotten to the point where certain posters with a clear agenda could do with a time out for the health of the forum. It is clear that winning the Ole argument is more important to them than the football.

You must actually mean, "the scoreline." Because there is no possible way someone could watch our football and think that supports the "Ole In" argument??

We were awful, the football was awful, and we were extremely fortunate with multiple decisions. Its logical to call that out.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I think MUFC might have used up the whole seasons luck in this game.

Because we’ve had shed loads in other games right?

 

[Bilbo]

Agreed, but currently, we play with Matic as a 6 shielding the defense, Fred as a b2b tasked to be a bit everywhere to intercept and relaunch, recycle, and Bruno to try to create. All of that with the full backs going up to create, and Maguire to go up when we attack.

When Pogba comes back, we need to think how to make it work for both Bruno and himself, because as you said, we want to give headache to the opposition. Let's say we go for a DM / CAM / CAM type of structure, then the 2 CAM are Bruno and Pogba, but what about the DM? Can Fred be that DM? Otherwise, only Matic is natural enough to hold that position without getting taken out of position too easily.

Or maybe we stack up the midfield, with Matic, Fred, Bruno and Pogba as DM, B2B, CAM, CAM, and we give up on James and play with a solo. And both Bruno and Pogba are supposed to also get up there, I don't know... happy problems to have, but still problems to solve for us to win for Ole.

Good post. For me what we obviously lack at the moment are options. Our summer business will give us that. We've seen that Ole can be quite flexible when it comes to formation. 3412 / 532 / 433 have all been used often, and he even experimented with some success with a diamond type formation last season, so the willingness is there to set us up for whatever the occasion calls for, we just havent been able to do that well this season.

I think that McTominay might end up being used as our 6 in the long run, but who knows. I'm not even sure that we need a specialist CDM when we have two dynamic midfielders in McTominay and Fred, but for me Matic has earned another season.

We should probably write off Pogba as having a future here now but assuming we replace him with someone like Grealish or Havertz then i see us using something like a 4123 type of system in home games against most opponents. With the right pressing game we should end up dominating possession and territory and have plenty of players in the team that can create and finish chances.

As you say, nice problems to have. If we had a summer where outgoings were Pogba, Lingard, Smalling, Rojo, Sanchez and maybe Mata (though I'd like to see him retained on Oles staff) and we bought in 1 creative midfielder, 1 right sided attacker and 1 striker we could accomplish all of that with a relatively low net spend and the wage bill will be far better off for it, then actually we have what would look close to a full and balanced, and also pretty exciting, squad there.

 

[Bilbo]

I thought last night was as good an example as we have had of team togetherness. To me, that means that behind the scenes on the training ground, the players are buying in. when LVG and Mourinho were under pressure, you didn't see that type of passion after goals, and that type of mentality when it came to protecting teammates.

I also thought we were outstanding defensively, particularly on the right side. Both AWB and Bailly had candidates for block of the season, and it came off the back of some very smart play by chelsea, who on another night could have scored 3 or 4. I wouldn't be so eager to shove Bailly next to Maguire in a 4-3-3 set up just yet, but with some security behind him it did seem to bring the best out of him. He makes us fun to watch at the back, if nothing else, and he deserves massive credit for being up to speed with the game,looked like he had been a mainstay in the team.

The work Fred is doing defensively reminds me of Kante, he just seems to find a way to get his body between man and ball. The best example was Pedro running back towards his own goal and Fred tracking him and eventually seeing the opportunity to nip in and take it. He is also very smart in the final third, and whilst his shooting leaves a lot to be desired, he's turning into a proper box to box player for us and at this point is almost indispensable. A midfield of Fred, Mctominay and Bruno has a LOT of potential.

We did ride our luck somewhat last night, and I also thought we were aided by Willian effectively playing like a man down for them, he was absolutely shocking all night.

Ighalo looked like he knew how to hold a ball up, and how to make a good run in behind, so good start for him too. There is a lot to like about this team at the moment!

Good post

 

[Bilbo]

You must actually mean, "the scoreline." Because there is no possible way someone could watch our football and think that supports the "Ole In" argument??

We were awful, the football was awful, and we were extremely fortunate with multiple decisions. Its logical to call that out.

No I do mean the football, because the volume of posts talking about our actual football matches pale into insignificance when stacked up with posts arguing about Ole. It's far more important to many.

It wasnt awful last night. Far from it. It was a highly entertaining match full of incident and talking points. Exactly why we all watch football, no?

 

[soapythecat]

Finally got around to watching the full 90 minutes this afternoon. I'm enjoying seeing this United side battle for a win last night at a tough place for us of recent years. I think we deserved the win.
My biggest point on the game (VAR aside) was how we desperately need to drop Daniel James - if he is allowed to continually perform at this level, then I doubt he will kick on. He was comfortably the worst player on the pitch last night and offered absolutely nothing at this level. No output, doesn't find the space to use his pace often enough, he quite literally offers pretty much nothing. Given we had Greenwood and Igalho on the bench, we could have turned the screw on Chelsea last night had we had more output from both front men. He needs dropping for his own good. Performances like that, when we lose, and he'll start to get hounded out by the fans.
He should not be starting for us at all.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Good game. Watchable been a while

 

[freddie the red]

So, the worst manager ever in the history of the PL has taken the pants down of both oil rich shitty and the mineral rich rent boys.
Twice.
Away from home.
In the same season.
Better sack the Nordmann charlatan now then

 

[Sea-Cow]

No I do mean the football, because the volume of posts talking about our actual football matches pale into insignificance when stacked up with posts arguing about Ole. It's far more important to many.

It wasnt awful last night. Far from it. It was a highly entertaining match full of incident and talking points. Exactly why we all watch football, no?

But to me, arguing about the football IS also, at its core, an argument about Ole. The football is awful, every week. We struggle to create chances, every week. Hell, we struggle to pass the ball forward to teammates, every week.

And I guess last night might have been highly entertaining for the neutral, but yes, I would still say the football that we played was awful and we were extremely lucky.

 

[Sea-Cow]

So, the worst manager ever in the history of the PL has taken the pants down of both oil rich shitty and the mineral rich rent boys.
Twice.
Away from home.
In the same season.
Better sack the Nordmann charlatan now then

Oh my god this is so tedious.

No one tell him about Villa at home. Or Watford away. Or Burnley at home.

 

[Tom Cato]

Key point here is "last year".

You are one positive bundle of uplifting joyful constructive spirit.

 

[Tom Cato]

Oh my god this is so tedious.

No one tell him about Villa at home. Or Watford away. Or Burnley at home.

There's an argument to be made that the top6 teams are harder to beat. I look forward to your two sentence dismantling of this lazy effort post.

 

[peridigm]

There's an argument to be made that the top6 teams are harder to beat. I look forward to your two sentence dismantling of this lazy effort post.

As are teams grasping for air in the relegation zone. I think I will look this up. How many games have we lost to relegation zone teams since SAF retired.
There is also the simple fact that most teams raise their game when they play United. It's about time we became the game raising cnuts against those above us.

 

[Sea-Cow]

There's an argument to be made that the top6 teams are harder to beat. I look forward to your two sentence dismantling of this lazy effort post.

So thats why we lost to Villa at home? Because they were too easy? Yeah that makes sense.

Edit -- I was thinking of the Crystal Palace game. My mistake. We didn't lose to Villa at home. We battled to a proud 2-2 draw.

Second Edit -- I have to respond via Edit because I've reached my daily post limit. But let me say --

Paul the Wolf -- You're right, I was thinking of Crystal Palace at home and I forgot that we drew with newly promoted Villa 2-2 at home.

Mr. Cato -- Thank you. I will consider the lazy post thoroughly dismantled.

 

[Amadaeus]

Yea, this type of win will not do us any good in the long term. We took our opportunities and got a lot of support by VAR.

Football needs to improve. As expected, we look solid in defense(That is what happens when you spend £130m on defense), but our movement, interplay, and attack is still lacking. Chelsea was far superior in that regards and it was a result that we rode our luck in. Eitherway I will take it, but as I stated before nothing will change with this victory unless we instill a better philosophy into these players.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So thats why we lost to Villa at home? Because they were too easy? Yeah that makes sense.

Last time we lost to Villa at home was 2009 , guess who was the manager, but carry on with your agenda.

 

[Tom Cato]

So thats why we lost to Villa at home? Because they were too easy? Yeah that makes sense.

A better response than I could have hoped for. You are correct about everything

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yea, this type of win will not do us any good in the long term. We took our opportunities and got a lot of support by VAR.

Football needs to improve. As expected, we look solid in defense(That is what happens when you spend £130m on defense), but our movement, interplay, and attack is still lacking. Chelsea was far superior in that regards and it was a result that we rode our luck in. Eitherway I will take it, but as I stated before nothing will change with this victory unless we instill a better philosophy into these players.

We didn't ride any luck, whether the VAR or the referee disallowed goals that should have been disallowed is neither here nor there, other than that DDG had one soft shot to save. We were better than Chelsea in all departments and deserved to win.

 

[Kurton]

Good win, but we only do well when onus is on the opponent to attack. Still lot to prove but let's celebrate the win.

 

[ReddBalls]

So thats why we lost to Villa at home? Because they were too easy? Yeah that makes sense.

Nope, it was because of a nonexistent midfield.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Add Pogba to that side and we may have steamrollered them.

Resigned to losing him in Summer but it would be great to see a flourish from him in March to May.

Bruno can easily fill the void he leaves. He’s not as good. But Pogba has never really been truly at his best for us for any prolonged period so it’s a wash. Great to finally have someone that can take a decent set piece.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

we were extremely fortunate with multiple decisions

Which decisions were those, the ones VAR clarified and that in past seasons would likely have gone against us erroneously?

 

[Amadaeus]

We didn't ride any luck, whether the VAR or the referee disallowed goals that should have been disallowed is neither here nor there, other than that DDG had one soft shot to save. We were better than Chelsea in all departments and deserved to win.

Maguire should have been sent of(even Keane admitted that), Chelsea first goal should have stood, and we were lucky Chelsea played with Batshuyi as their striker as he missed multiple easy chances. Those were important elements in the game that luck was on our side. You can’t just look at the result and call it a victory. You have to actually watch the game and see whether it was deserved. You can only cover up holes in your team for a short time until it becomes bigger. I didn’t see a United team that was undoubtedly better and deserving of a victory against Chelsea today.

 

[Canagel]

The truth is that it was a low quality game starved of quality. Could've gone either way tbh (in the chances created it was roughly similar , they hit the post and we hit the post, I don't remember much clear chances although their striker wasted a lot ) It was not a masterclass by any means. Our ball retention is still as crap as ever and on the another day VAR might not have saved us. We were efficient nothing more.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The only decision up for debate is Maguire’s kick out, and even that is marginal.

How people cannot see the difference in the Son and Harry incidents is beyond me.

Sons was clearly an intentional and additional kick at chest height.

Maguire was similar but had shades of grey.

For what it’s worth the Son Red was a little bit too severe. I don’t think any ref pulls a red card without a slow motion replay. It’s a perfect illustration of VAR being problematic. At regular speed it’s probably a chat and a yellow. Especially as Rudiger acted like a total ar5e.