[mu4c_20le]

We were up 4-0. What system is it that you're trying to play every game? Didn't Ole go 5 at the back and change up a bunch of players for last years FA cup semifinal as well? Plenty of teams play without a number 10. Ole should have rested him for the whole game then and played him for the whole game yesterday. The guy overplays players then rests them when he needs them the most. Complains about tired legs and injuries and rarely uses subs( before someone gets the list of number of subs, go look at the minutes those subs are on the pitch)

Yes, he went 5 back before, but usually to spring a tactical surprise. It requires methodical preparation, not just on a whim because he needed to rotate the squad to rest one guy. It's easy to look back on one or two matches and ask why this why that, but I think the bigger issue is that the guy we signed to back him up is not pulling his weight, that's the problem here. If VdB or Mata or Pereira could do a job there then we wouldn't have to worry about any of this.

 

[NecssryEvil]

On the day, yes, that’s right. The players weren’t good enough and made lots of errors, and Ole made the situation worse with his decision making. You saw something else and are pleased with the performance? Got it.

Show me where I said I am pleased with the performance? You can't, because I didn't. You said the players are not good enough and I agree we do not have enough players that are good enough to challenge on 3/4 fronts. So, if the players are not good enough, and the ones that played made several errors that led to goals, then why should the manager hang his head in shame?

My whole point is that until we get enough good players to where there isn't such a notable drop off when the starters need a rest, I think it is difficult to judge the manager in a COVID condensed schedule where depth is needed.

Also, the fact that United had two tough EL games to play while LC was able to rest is absolutely a huge obstacle to overcome no matter what anyone says. Especially when we look back to the original issue being discussed, not enough good players.

 

[mitchmouse]

It really hasn't.

you think we haven't played awfully and lost games we shouldn't have?

 

[Offsideagain]

Show me where I said I am pleased with the performance? You can't, because I didn't. You said the players are not good enough and I agree we do not have enough players that are good enough to challenge on 3/4 fronts. So, if the players are not good enough, and the ones that played made several errors that led to goals, then why should the manager hang his head in shame?

My whole point is that until we get enough good players to where there isn't such a notable drop off when the starters need a rest, I think it is difficult to judge the manager in a COVID condensed schedule where depth is needed.

Also, the fact that United had two tough EL games to play while LC was able to rest is absolutely a huge obstacle to overcome no matter what anyone says. Especially when we look back to the original issue being discussed, not enough good players.

That is a big part of the problem, the actual numbers of quality players. City have spent a fortune but spent it well, in general. We can’t put out two competitive teams as they can. A phrase used in commentary again and again was ‘Well drilled’. Our defence looked like over the place and every game I’m shouting at the TV ‘Tackle him’ as they let players run for yards before tackling them. Quality must improve in all department.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Pathetic. Ole will probably be smiling. But game after game its the same shite even when we scrape a win. We are lucky we got Granada in the Europa or we would have no chance there either.

Feck sake you were right.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Feck sake you were right.

Massive grin after such a performance, it's so annoying to see.

 

[croadyman]

It's not a get out clause. I'm sure you can find my posts when the draw was made that I said I thought we'd lose, or the start of the post match thread where I expected us to lose. Tiredness BS? Really? So them having full weeks off between games for a few weeks leading up to it (and their last 2 games being Brighton and sheffield) isn't any sort of advantage over us playing Milan twice, City once and west ham once, along with the travel associated with it?

I am just not going to use any excuses for this performance, for me it just stunk of Ole taking a team for granted yet again as we have seen a few times this season and generally we pay the price.

 

[RRCE]

Show me where I said I am pleased with the performance? You can't, because I didn't. You said the players are not good enough and I agree we do not have enough players that are good enough to challenge on 3/4 fronts. So, if the players are not good enough, and the ones that played made several errors that led to goals, then why should the manager hang his head in shame?

My whole point is that until we get enough good players to where there isn't such a notable drop off when the starters need a rest, I think it is difficult to judge the manager in a COVID condensed schedule where depth is needed.

Also, the fact that United had two tough EL games to play while LC was able to rest is absolutely a huge obstacle to overcome no matter what anyone says. Especially when we look back to the original issue being discussed, not enough good players.

You seemed to take issue with the fact that I wasn’t pleased with the performance. It was, in my opinion, dire.

Yes, several players played poorly and made some horrendous mistakes, but Ole clearly contributed to the loss. His team selection, tactics and substitutions were terrible on the day. Even bigger picture, Ole has passed up several chances to rest Bruno. Then, in a game like that, decides to leave him on the bench? It’s baffling squad management and decision making.

It’s another big game loss, on our way to what could well be another season without a trophy (I hope its not, of course). If you’re happy with making excuses for that game (not just the loss, but the manner of it), that’s great. I’m not. We should expect better from the club.

 

[croadyman]

The trouble is last season our fanbase dined out far too much on those league doubles over City & Chelsea, this season it's a win over City again and the fact we are in second place is being overegged now as well. We are starting to just accept mediocrity like Arsenal used to do and it's so sad.

 

[NFM]

I don't think United deliberately threw the match against Leicester, but given the match pressures I think its highly unlikely that the management did not make it clear that PL and EC were the priorities. Firstly its always a priority to finish top 4, and as high as possible. Winning the EC gives prestige, perhaps not in UK but elsewher a lot. And crucially it gives a much better CL seeding the following year. Whereas the FA cup is nice but has no standing outside UK.
Ole clearly has only a small squad to pick from. Playing the dutch lad was a clear indication of low priorities, he is poor, and a bad buy. Matic is over the hill, and Martial only plays when he wants to. It leavves OLe with about 15 men to pick from who he can trust to do a shift. Its not enough normally, in this season its almost suicidal.
So PL and EC is only what can be seriously persued.

 

[sparx99]

I don't think United deliberately threw the match against Leicester, but given the match pressures I think its highly unlikely that the management did not make it clear that PL and EC were the priorities. Firstly its always a priority to finish top 4, and as high as possible. Winning the EC gives prestige, perhaps not in UK but elsewher a lot. And crucially it gives a much better CL seeding the following year. Whereas the FA cup is nice but has no standing outside UK.
Ole clearly has only a small squad to pick from. Playing the dutch lad was a clear indication of low priorities, he is poor, and a bad buy. Matic is over the hill, and Martial only plays when he wants to. It leavves OLe with about 15 men to pick from who he can trust to do a shift. Its not enough normally, in this season its almost suicidal.
So PL and EC is only what can be seriously persued.

I’m as disappointed in Van de Beek as the next fan but it’s also unfair that he gets thrown into games completely cold and often with 5-6-7 changes as well. So is his performance part of the problem, part of a disjointed team performance or a bit of both.

If we could find a way to get up 2-3 goals in a game then sub Bruno at 60mins and play Van de Beek with the other starters. Build him up gradually.

 

[Bilbo]

The trouble is last season our fanbase dined out far too much on those league doubles over City & Chelsea, this season it's a win over City again and the fact we are in second place is being overegged now as well. We are starting to just accept mediocrity like Arsenal used to do and it's so sad.

Really grinds my gears to have to keep on reading this 'accepting mediocrity' crap on here.

What does it even mean? How are fans supposed to react after a defeat? There is unfortunately a majority on here these days for whom spitting out the collective dummies is the only way they know how to react, but its not productive and it doesnt mean that you have higher standards or somehow 'get it' in a way that others don't.

 

[Counterfactual]

I’m as disappointed in Van de Beek as the next fan but it’s also unfair that he gets thrown into games completely cold and often with 5-6-7 changes as well. So is his performance part of the problem, part of a disjointed team performance or a bit of both.

If we could find a way to get up 2-3 goals in a game then sub Bruno at 60mins and play Van de Beek with the other starters. Build him up gradually.

Woah, that was a flash of nostalgia! That was how we used to introduce new players, wasn't it? I'd completely forgotten that!

 

[croadyman]

Really grinds my gears to have to keep on reading this 'accepting mediocrity' crap on here.

What does it even mean? How are fans supposed to react after a defeat? There is unfortunately a majority on here these days for whom spitting out the collective dummies is the only way they know how to react, but its not productive and it doesnt mean that you have higher standards or somehow 'get it' in a way that others don't.

People are saying it due to the fact that those yankee leeches are continually bleeding our club dry whilst lowering expectations every season and it's such a pathetic sad state of affairs

 

[Bilbo]

People are saying it due to the fact that those yankee leeches are continually bleeding our club dry whilst lowering expectations every season and it's such a pathetic sad state of affairs

You need to take a step back and realise how you sound, with all due respect.

Nothing about the club is pathetic or sad. If you really feel that way then it's time to try something new perhaps. There really isn't any attempt to lower expectations either. Its just a catchphrase that angry internet kids like to use. In the real world there are a lot of good people at the club trying very hard to make our team better.

 

[NecssryEvil]

You seemed to take issue with the fact that I wasn’t pleased with the performance. It was, in my opinion, dire.

Yes, several players played poorly and made some horrendous mistakes, but Ole clearly contributed to the loss. His team selection, tactics and substitutions were terrible on the day. Even bigger picture, Ole has passed up several chances to rest Bruno. Then, in a game like that, decides to leave him on the bench? It’s baffling squad management and decision making.

It’s another big game loss, on our way to what could well be another season without a trophy (I hope its not, of course). If you’re happy with making excuses for that game (not just the loss, but the manner of it), that’s great. I’m not. We should expect better from the club.

I have no issue with the fact you were not pleased with the performance, I was not either.

My point is that people question Ole's decisions without all the info he has. It's fine, I get it, we all have the ability to look at things and post our opinion. But, you and 99.99% of the people that post here do not have the info Ole and the rest of the staff have. Also, people have this notion that when things don't work on the field, that if Ole would have just did this or that, we would have won. That can't be proven, it's just speculation made again without the knowledge that the manager has. Again, no problem with people posting their opinions, I just don't take it as gospel.

Back to the point I was arguing (we do not have enough good players so Ole should not "hang his head in shame") let me change the game a bit... Chess. If I put a player I think is good, but not how good he stacks up against others, would you be able to fairly judge him if I was to pull a rook, knight and pawn off his side? He might lose to a low level player but be able to put one over against top level players given the right circumstances in any matchup. But you would never know for sure until you gave him all the pieces. Ole needs more pieces. But again, I get it, many think that if we just had a better manager we wouldn't need better players in the starting 11, just coach em up. Right?

 

[He'sRaldo]

But again, I get it, many think that if we just had a better manager we wouldn't need better players in the starting 11, just coach em up. Right?

Yes.

In fact, this is why some managers are better than others.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Yes.

In fact, this is why some managers are better than others.

Is it why Klopp replaced nearly the entire starting XI to win the league?

 

[He'sRaldo]

Is it why Klopp replaced nearly the entire starting XI to win the league?

What's with the Klopp talk?

I thought that would've died down as Ole approaches his CL winning year.

 

[sglowrider]

We just dont have squad depth and coupled with the recent injuries, to go 100% at all fronts. So basically it's all about priorities and having to take risks with team selections.

The FA cup is a more difficult trophy to win than say the Europa considering the teams that are still left in the tourney. Plus considering that there was such a short turnaround time from the Milan game versus Leicester's week's rest, the management had to make a difficult choice.
All this in view of the fact that a number of players have already shown signs of being over-played.

 

[RRCE]

I have no issue with the fact you were not pleased with the performance, I was not either.

My point is that people question Ole's decisions without all the info he has. It's fine, I get it, we all have the ability to look at things and post our opinion. But, you and 99.99% of the people that post here do not have the info Ole and the rest of the staff have. Also, people have this notion that when things don't work on the field, that if Ole would have just did this or that, we would have won. That can't be proven, it's just speculation made again without the knowledge that the manager has. Again, no problem with people posting their opinions, I just don't take it as gospel.

Back to the point I was arguing (we do not have enough good players so Ole should not "hang his head in shame") let me change the game a bit... Chess. If I put a player I think is good, but not how good he stacks up against others, would you be able to fairly judge him if I was to pull a rook, knight and pawn off his side? He might lose to a low level player but be able to put one over against top level players given the right circumstances in any matchup. But you would never know for sure until you gave him all the pieces. Ole needs more pieces. But again, I get it, many think that if we just had a better manager we wouldn't need better players in the starting 11, just coach em up. Right?

Fans don’t need to be “inside” to see that Ole has made some very poor decisions over the course of time, including the game on the weekend. He needs to be better.

I agree that we need better players. If the first 11 isn’t improved, Ole will eventually be out of a job. I don’t expect him to compete at the highest level with this group of players. He’s not a good enough Manager to do that. Quite possibly, no Manager could do that. I do believe, however, that a better Manager would have utilized the squad better, implemented a better / more consistent style of play, and gotten more out of the group than he has. I’ve seen very little to suggest that Ole is able to make a team better than the sum of its parts. Hopefully he improves, because he’s clearly learning on the job.

To be clear, it’s not the fact that we lost that bothers me. Losses happen in football. What I had a problem with was the manner of the loss. It was a dire performance, and I believe fans should expect more. Also, I’m not calling for Ole to be fired or anything like that. I want him to be better at his job, but without systemic improvement, and support from the Board and owners, we’re going to spin our wheels for a long time.

 

[NecssryEvil]

Yes.

In fact, this is why some managers are better than others.

So Klopp, Pep, Poch or whoever you want come in and would have been happy with this squad and would have challenged for titles/trophies in your opinion? Bullshit. Pep and Klopp spent tons to get their preferred team and the excuse for Poch has always been if he just had more money to spend.

 

[Denis79]

Would you swap our current season for LvG's FA Cup winning season?

If someone doesn't believe playing big games like finals and maybe even winning them is benifitial for the development of players and squad I would say they were dead wrong. What I would want is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[pocco]

You need to take a step back and realise how you sound, with all due respect.

Nothing about the club is pathetic or sad. If you really feel that way then it's time to try something new perhaps. There really isn't any attempt to lower expectations either. Its just a catchphrase that angry internet kids like to use. In the real world there are a lot of good people at the club trying very hard to make our team better.

This isn't the NHS we're talking about. We're an elite, competitive sports club, with everybody involved paid millions for the privilege of being here and the supporters paying massive money to turn up and support. You are judged against many factors at this level, it's sink or swim. Every other team that is very, very good at remaining competitive behaves like this.

We got away with it for a long time because we had the best manager for 26 years and we got a crop of youngsters that were some of the best players in the world, all of which wanted to spend their entire careers here. If you don't remain ruthless and hungry for success then you will fall by the wayside and become, well, Arsenal. It's quite conceivable the way things are going that we have a barren spell to match that of Liverpool, because other clubs have moved ahead of us and are ruthless and efficient in their decisions to remain at the top.

 

[He'sRaldo]

So Klopp, Pep, Poch or whoever you want come in and would have been happy with this squad and would have challenged for titles/trophies in your opinion? Bullshit. Pep and Klopp spent tons to get their preferred team and the excuse for Poch has always been if he just had more money to spend.

Klopp, Pep, Poch or whoever wouldn't have this squad, so it's a moot point.

 

[Waynne]

We just dont have squad depth and coupled with the recent injuries, to go 100% at all fronts. So basically it's all about priorities and having to take risks with team selections.

The FA cup is a more difficult trophy to win than say the Europa considering the teams that are still left in the tourney. Plus considering that there was such a short turnaround time from the Milan game versus Leicester's week's rest, the management had to make a difficult choice.
All this in view of the fact that a number of players have already shown signs of being over-played.

Have to agree with this.

 

[firstkuyttouch]

Really grinds my gears to have to keep on reading this 'accepting mediocrity' crap on here.

What does it even mean? How are fans supposed to react after a defeat? There is unfortunately a majority on here these days for whom spitting out the collective dummies is the only way they know how to react, but its not productive and it doesnt mean that you have higher standards or somehow 'get it' in a way that others don't.

As an outsider (see username: the man's first touch was legitimately atrocious, but he, like, tried really hard. And I loved that. I created a redcafe account because if I ever get enough posts/points/whatever, I can finally go in the Redafe "movie review thread" and tell them how they're some of the most brilliant & funny posters on the internet after lurking for years, that thread is pure gold. So, yes, you're talking to a crazy person- and knowing is half the battle) I'll offer my 2 cents on what "accepting mediocrity" means.

It is not that long ago that I and many others viewed Manchester United as some combination of the Death Star, Darth Vader (with helmet on), Rocky Balboa and the Terminator. Your club might have been down in matches but was never out, you won everything in sight, you could throw out 3 janitors in midfield and a roll of duct tape in defense and win 2-0. Sir Alex was a once in a lifetime manager, sure, but...there was an aura about United that surely extended beyond one man.

It's, what, less than a decade later? And your manager says cups are for the ego and is seen smiling and chortling and offering any excuse under the sun after every manner of defeat. I'm not just reacting to the FA Cup exit; this is something that has gone on for a long time. You've gone from outdated managers who set out to win things but were a bit past it, to a manager who is very happy to be there and be part of it all, who won't take the managers parking spot, a manager whose crowning career achievement was in Norwegian league 8 years ago.

Frankly, I'd much rather be fearful of you lot than watching a procession of plastic clubs and sports washing ventures proceed to dominate the landscape. I almost long for the days of being fearful of you lot. Instead I feel a bit of pity, because it all seems to start and end with your bloodsucking American owners and bullshit businessmen masquerading as football men. I feel that your owners and club hierarchy have been crystal clear with you the supporters on their expectations; Money=good, expectations of winning things=BAD. That's the Glazer reign in a nutshell for me. And I think they've found the perfect foil in Ole Gunnar Smilefactory, a good time fellow who will never, ever, ever rock the boat. He is happy to be there and they seem very happy to have him there.

Sorry to lose the thread; I was trying to summarize "accepting mediocrity". So Sir Alex retired, and you went from reasonably expecting to win the league at the start of every season, to now being locked in internecine wars about what the expectations should be, what anyone else could do with this squad, whether the players are fit for purpose, what kind of elite player in each position will bring out the best out of underperforming signings in that position, and on and on.

Every year United flame out of all cups, and a top 2 push is seen as real progress now, no matter the double digit distance to first. The aura is deader than dead. You're 2nd in the league yes, but with a budget that means you should be up there or thereabouts every year, and as soon as the games *might have mattered* you went on a desperate slide, only to beat City when things started to kinda not matter anymore. Similar to the green and gold scarves thing just sorta fading from sight, it is remarkable to me how many on here are just willing to say "well, who could he have rotated for Bruno" or whatever in lieu of actually asking that your manager manage well, and it's the same shit you'll be saying when Ole manages to crash out of the Europa League. Which I'd stake my nonexistent reputation on happening btw. You see, I watched your Champions League campaign this fall. And the semifinals last year. And the games in the league where the counter-attacking doesn't work. And..... All of this while the powers that be at your club are celebrating, ecstatic with the slide into mediocrity, because the dividends are rolling in nice and steady.

I think that's a bit of what your supporters mean when they talk about accepting mediocrity. Give Ole more time, give him more signings, sign Sancho, whatever, you'll be back here next season, trying to talk yourself into a 3rd place finish as progress because...reasons. Something is rotten in Denmark and it's plain to see; Manchester United has become a club designed to make money, winning things is beside the point. I think the supporters amongst you deserve better than being owned by 'mike ashley, but with a better PR team and far deeper pockets, because there are so so so many of you to milk'. Within 5 years I think the bantz will be something akin to "Lads......it's Manchester United."

And oddly enough, that bums me out.

 

[croadyman]

You need to take a step back and realise how you sound, with all due respect.

Nothing about the club is pathetic or sad. If you really feel that way then it's time to try something new perhaps. There really isn't any attempt to lower expectations either. Its just a catchphrase that angry internet kids like to use. In the real world there are a lot of good people at the club trying very hard to make our team better.

I am just so sick of seeing us play such crap football the majority of the time and looking like we have never been coached at all, do you never have any days where how awfully this club is run gets you down. These two things are why I feel so pessimistic about the future and can't see things ever changing until our owners feck off.

 

[kouroux]

This forum is embarrassing. We’ve got two threads mocking Liverpool and City and the content I see on here is far worse than 99% of what goes on on those sites. The moderators seem to allow it to go unchecked, probably because half of them seen to hold the same opinions.

It’s gone downhill ever since they stopped with the “10 likes” policy. You’ve got every FIFA-playing, never-been-to-OT, never kicked a ball numpty on the Internet creating pointless thread after pointless thread every single time we lose a game of football.

We’re 2nd. We won a Europa League Qtr Final 72 hours ago. Leicester are 3rd and have had a week off. We looked mentally and physically shot. It happens. It’s one of the most significant and under appreciated stats in football. Teams suffer after playing European away games midweek. The PPG statistics are there for all to see.

Are there any decent forums were actual Utd fans who actually go to Utd games can talk sensibly about Utd or is it just this s**te or nothing?

And has been the case for years. Beating Leicester in this context would have been a great surprise. In normal circumstances, I'd back United to win 9 times out of 10 but the Milan game was tough and drained not just physical energy but also mental.

 

[Bilbo]

As an outsider (see username: the man's first touch was legitimately atrocious, but he, like, tried really hard. And I loved that. I created a redcafe account because if I ever get enough posts/points/whatever, I can finally go in the Redafe "movie review thread" and tell them how they're some of the most brilliant & funny posters on the internet after lurking for years, that thread is pure gold. So, yes, you're talking to a crazy person- and knowing is half the battle) I'll offer my 2 cents on what "accepting mediocrity" means.

It is not that long ago that I and many others viewed Manchester United as some combination of the Death Star, Darth Vader (with helmet on), Rocky Balboa and the Terminator. Your club might have been down in matches but was never out, you won everything in sight, you could throw out 3 janitors in midfield and a roll of duct tape in defense and win 2-0. Sir Alex was a once in a lifetime manager, sure, but...there was an aura about United that surely extended beyond one man.

It's, what, less than a decade later? And your manager says cups are for the ego and is seen smiling and chortling and offering any excuse under the sun after every manner of defeat. I'm not just reacting to the FA Cup exit; this is something that has gone on for a long time. You've gone from outdated managers who set out to win things but were a bit past it, to a manager who is very happy to be there and be part of it all, who won't take the managers parking spot, a manager whose crowning career achievement was in Norwegian league 8 years ago.

Frankly, I'd much rather be fearful of you lot than watching a procession of plastic clubs and sports washing ventures proceed to dominate the landscape. I almost long for the days of being fearful of you lot. Instead I feel a bit of pity, because it all seems to start and end with your bloodsucking American owners and bullshit businessmen masquerading as football men. I feel that your owners and club hierarchy have been crystal clear with you the supporters on their expectations; Money=good, expectations of winning things=BAD. That's the Glazer reign in a nutshell for me. And I think they've found the perfect foil in Ole Gunnar Smilefactory, a good time fellow who will never, ever, ever rock the boat. He is happy to be there and they seem very happy to have him there.

Sorry to lose the thread; I was trying to summarize "accepting mediocrity". So Sir Alex retired, and you went from reasonably expecting to win the league at the start of every season, to now being locked in internecine wars about what the expectations should be, what anyone else could do with this squad, whether the players are fit for purpose, what kind of elite player in each position will bring out the best out of underperforming signings in that position, and on and on.

Every year United flame out of all cups, and a top 2 push is seen as real progress now, no matter the double digit distance to first. The aura is deader than dead. You're 2nd in the league yes, but with a budget that means you should be up there or thereabouts every year, and as soon as the games *might have mattered* you went on a desperate slide, only to beat City when things started to kinda not matter anymore. Similar to the green and gold scarves thing just sorta fading from sight, it is remarkable to me how many on here are just willing to say "well, who could he have rotated for Bruno" or whatever in lieu of actually asking that your manager manage well, and it's the same shit you'll be saying when Ole manages to crash out of the Europa League. Which I'd stake my nonexistent reputation on happening btw. You see, I watched your Champions League campaign this fall. And the semifinals last year. And the games in the league where the counter-attacking doesn't work. And..... All of this while the powers that be at your club are celebrating, ecstatic with the slide into mediocrity, because the dividends are rolling in nice and steady.

I think that's a bit of what your supporters mean when they talk about accepting mediocrity. Give Ole more time, give him more signings, sign Sancho, whatever, you'll be back here next season, trying to talk yourself into a 3rd place finish as progress because...reasons. Something is rotten in Denmark and it's plain to see; Manchester United has become a club designed to make money, winning things is beside the point. I think the supporters amongst you deserve better than being owned by 'mike ashley, but with a better PR team and far deeper pockets, because there are so so so many of you to milk'. Within 5 years I think the bantz will be something akin to "Lads......it's Manchester United."

And oddly enough, that bums me out.

First of all, good post. I fundamentally disagree with it, and that's okay, but its better to read an argument being laid out like this than short twitter style posts using over the top phrasing like 'sickening' and 'awfully run club', so thanks for taking the time to write it.

Why do I disagree? Mainly because what you are describing here is not a club that is accepting of mediocrity, but rather one that has fallen from a position of being far ahead of the pack to one that is now playing catch-up, and as we all know only too well there are a multitude of reasons for that too long and (by now) too dull to list all over again.

However, when people talk about City buying Haaland and the challengers 'kissing goodbye to the league for the next 10 years', I imagine that this is exactly how our opponents felt when United were breaking records to sign the likes of Rooney & Ferdinand. We always got the big players when we wanted them, because we had the full package. The financial muscle, the glamour, the team, the manager. The fact that we were caught up due to our challengers winning the football lottery, and not through decades of forward planning and minor improvements, is water under the bridge by now but it does mean that we lost some of the advantages that allowed us to consistently win trophies.

What I do take issue with is the constantly moving expectations. What you describe above is a team that should have won the title and choked. I think that's drastically unfair. There is 'accepting mediocrity' and then there is also properly understanding where a team really is, and this team is not ready to win the league yet. We are not yet good enough to compete with a team that can win 20 in a row when it matters. Anybody who has convinced themselves that we are is setting themselves up for disappointment, and frankly should all know better, but a lot of fans have seem to transitioned from a 'we'll be lucky to finish top 4' stance to a 'furious that we won't now win a treble' one and give no credit to a management & team that created that hope and made it possible.

It's what irks me the most about our fanbase and why I'm constantly considering quitting this forum. Zero consideration given for what is actual progress. No regard to the fact that we've played 32 matches in 15.5 weeks, and the affect that might have on performances and tactics. No analysis. Its just constant demands and simmering rage just waiting for the team to slip up so it can all boil over.
We are the modern day 'voyeurs' that Jose once alluded to, constantly looking over the fence wanting what everybody else has got (if you doubt that then witness the vomit-inducing fawning over everything Leicester since the game. Do you think City were making eyes at us in the same way after we dismantled them in similar style just 16 days ago?)

This is a long term project that was very briefly ahead of schedule but actually is exactly where many of us expected (hoped!) it would be at this point, which in itself is a notable achievement. Its just a shame that more of us cannot see it.

 

[firstkuyttouch]

First of all, good post. I fundamentally disagree with it, and that's okay, but its better to read an argument being laid out like this than short twitter style posts using over the top phrasing like 'sickening' and 'awfully run club', so thanks for taking the time to write it.

Why do I disagree? Mainly because what you are describing here is not a club that is accepting of mediocrity, but rather one that has fallen from a position of being far ahead of the pack to one that is now playing catch-up, and as we all know only too well there are a multitude of reasons for that too long and (by now) too dull to list all over again.

However, when people talk about City buying Haaland and the challengers 'kissing goodbye to the league for the next 10 years', I imagine that this is exactly how our opponents felt when United were breaking records to sign the likes of Rooney & Ferdinand. We always got the big players when we wanted them, because we had the full package. The financial muscle, the glamour, the team, the manager. The fact that we were caught up due to our challengers winning the football lottery, and not through decades of forward planning and minor improvements, is water under the bridge by now but it does mean that we lost some of the advantages that allowed us to consistently win trophies.

What I do take issue with is the constantly moving expectations. What you describe above is a team that should have won the title and choked. I think that's drastically unfair. There is 'accepting mediocrity' and then there is also properly understanding where a team really is, and this team is not ready to win the league yet. We are not yet good enough to compete with a team that can win 20 in a row when it matters. Anybody who has convinced themselves that we are is setting themselves up for disappointment, and frankly should all know better, but a lot of fans have seem to transitioned from a 'we'll be lucky to finish top 4' stance to a 'furious that we won't now win a treble' one and give no credit to a management & team that created that hope and made it possible.

It's what irks me the most about our fanbase and why I'm constantly considering quitting this forum. Zero consideration given for what is actual progress. No regard to the fact that we've played 32 matches in 15.5 weeks, and the affect that might have on performances and tactics. No analysis. Its just constant demands and simmering rage just waiting for the team to slip up so it can all boil over.
We are the modern day 'voyeurs' that Jose once alluded to, constantly looking over the fence wanting what everybody else has got (if you doubt that then witness the vomit-inducing fawning over everything Leicester since the game. Do you think City were making eyes at us in the same way after we dismantled them in similar style just 16 days ago?)

This is a long term project that was very briefly ahead of schedule but actually is exactly where many of us expected (hoped!) it would be at this point, which in itself is a notable achievement. Its just a shame that more of us cannot see it.

Cheers. I guess where I disagree is in the belief there is a project. I see a lot of money being spent to satisfy the voyeurs and to me that money is being spent to accomplish what is required; top 4, and the attendant money. I also disagree that this, the present, could be seen as progress- this team was not cheap to assemble, it’s full of talented players, some more flawed than others, some perhaps less committed than others, so no different than most clubs in world football I’d say in that regard, but to hear it talked about as this group of plucky ahead of their timers....that doesn’t make sense to me. I guess what I’m getting at is it’s not so much if City signed Haaland well there goes the neighborhood for a decade, it’s the belief in my gut that if United signed Haaland....he wouldn’t achieve much under the current setup.

Thanks for replying, good chat

 

[Bilbo]

I am just so sick of seeing us play such crap football the majority of the time and looking like we have never been coached at all, do you never have any days where how awfully this club is run gets you down. These two things are why I feel so pessimistic about the future and can't see things ever changing until our owners feck off.

No

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

you think we haven't played awfully and lost games we shouldn't have?

They have been very few times it has happened.

I refuse to include the shocking results of our first 5 league games in the mix because we hadn't had a pre season and we were woefully match unfit.

 

[Craig Ward]

We had an off night, we didnt play well and were soundly beaten by a very good team. It happens

Thats football - some games we will look amazing, others pretty grim.

Leicester were sharper, better tactically and won the important duels - especially in midfield. Our attack wasnt involved enough and our defense overrun by runners from midfield.

We were too flat and outworked. Poor show on the night

Usual complaints and it wont change unless players are sold and replaced with better:
Lindelof - shambles of a defender. So weak and placid. Makes Maguire look mobile on times
Pogba - Marmite. Either a match winner or a huge part of the problem when we lose the midfield battle.
Martial - On the back of a great season he's fallen of the edge of a cliff. In awful form with no sign of him coming good. Worrying times for him.
Van Der Beek - The man people love to blame. Barely had a kick all season. I feel for him, sporadic minutes cant be doing him any favours. Must be wondering why we signed him. At Ajax, he was combative, driven and allowed freedom to play. Here - he's watching much lesser players get heaps of game time ahead of him (Matic/Fred/McTom). Must be soul destroying for him to be so limited
Fred - World class at running around, league one level passing. Can be vital for us on times, but we need more composure on the ball - especially when pogba's just strolling around doing nada and Matic is blowing out of his arse after 10 minutes.

All game I was thinking how good Ndidi and Tielemans we're - they would both absolutely walk into our team. They're both better than anything we have in Midfield.
Saying that, most Leicester players are better than what we have in key areas
Soyuncu - Probably better than Maguire, certainly better then Lindelof
Maddison - Better than any creative midfielder we have bar Fernandes
Vardy - Streets ahead of Martial

I started writing this calm and objective but now i'm back to feeling how ordinary our squad is. We are a good x11 and a alright squad. Saying something when half the Leicester team walk into our starting 11 with absolute ease

 

[Zaphod2319]

It didn't take long for the journalists to jump on Ole's quote about trophies and egos.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...manchester-united-solskjaer-fa-cup-ego-things

 

[Lentwood]

First of all, good post. I fundamentally disagree with it, and that's okay, but its better to read an argument being laid out like this than short twitter style posts using over the top phrasing like 'sickening' and 'awfully run club', so thanks for taking the time to write it.

Why do I disagree? Mainly because what you are describing here is not a club that is accepting of mediocrity, but rather one that has fallen from a position of being far ahead of the pack to one that is now playing catch-up, and as we all know only too well there are a multitude of reasons for that too long and (by now) too dull to list all over again.

However, when people talk about City buying Haaland and the challengers 'kissing goodbye to the league for the next 10 years', I imagine that this is exactly how our opponents felt when United were breaking records to sign the likes of Rooney & Ferdinand. We always got the big players when we wanted them, because we had the full package. The financial muscle, the glamour, the team, the manager. The fact that we were caught up due to our challengers winning the football lottery, and not through decades of forward planning and minor improvements, is water under the bridge by now but it does mean that we lost some of the advantages that allowed us to consistently win trophies.

What I do take issue with is the constantly moving expectations. What you describe above is a team that should have won the title and choked. I think that's drastically unfair. There is 'accepting mediocrity' and then there is also properly understanding where a team really is, and this team is not ready to win the league yet. We are not yet good enough to compete with a team that can win 20 in a row when it matters. Anybody who has convinced themselves that we are is setting themselves up for disappointment, and frankly should all know better, but a lot of fans have seem to transitioned from a 'we'll be lucky to finish top 4' stance to a 'furious that we won't now win a treble' one and give no credit to a management & team that created that hope and made it possible.

It's what irks me the most about our fanbase and why I'm constantly considering quitting this forum. Zero consideration given for what is actual progress. No regard to the fact that we've played 32 matches in 15.5 weeks, and the affect that might have on performances and tactics. No analysis. Its just constant demands and simmering rage just waiting for the team to slip up so it can all boil over.
We are the modern day 'voyeurs' that Jose once alluded to, constantly looking over the fence wanting what everybody else has got (if you doubt that then witness the vomit-inducing fawning over everything Leicester since the game. Do you think City were making eyes at us in the same way after we dismantled them in similar style just 16 days ago?)

This is a long term project that was very briefly ahead of schedule but actually is exactly where many of us expected (hoped!) it would be at this point, which in itself is a notable achievement. Its just a shame that more of us cannot see it.

Good post. Don't leave the forum, there are some of us left who thinks like this, albeit we do seem to be in the minority.

I've highlighted before that there is little point comparing this Man Utd with the Utd of the 90s or the 00s without understanding the periods of transition that those sides had to go through and that the current side is going through now.

I imagine if this forum had been around in the late 80s, fans would have been almost unanimous in their desire to get rid of SAF. What most of the new crowd fail to realise is that by any modern definition of 'progress', SAF would have been kicked out the door on at least two/three occasions. People seem to think it was all linear progress. Far from it. SAF finished 11th in his 3rd season at the club. Just imagine that for a second! Imagine Ole finishing 11th this season! We'd have to close this site! We then followed that up the following season by getting beaten 1-5 by Man City and going 7 games without a win. Again, just imagine that now! It would be another three season before we lifted a league title, it's inconceivable a modern manager would have been given the chance to turn it around these days.

Likewise, when Roman Abrahamovic first came onto the scene at Chelsea, United were struggling big time. We had the likes of Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson, Roy Carroll and David Bellion playing fairly frequently. We had Roy Keane partnering Laurent Blanc at CB at times. We had Phil Neville and John O'Shea playing together in CM...I mean...just imagine the levels of meltdown on here now!

I actually think we are well-ahead of what I would consider to be the base criteria for keeping Ole in a job. I don't even think it's a debate. Ole has surpassed every single one of my expectations.

 

[Stacks]

We just dont have squad depth and coupled with the recent injuries, to go 100% at all fronts. So basically it's all about priorities and having to take risks with team selections.

The FA cup is a more difficult trophy to win than say the Europa considering the teams that are still left in the tourney. Plus considering that there was such a short turnaround time from the Milan game versus Leicester's week's rest, the management had to make a difficult choice.
All this in view of the fact that a number of players have already shown signs of being over-played.

Leicester had multiple players out.

 

[NecssryEvil]

First of all, good post. I fundamentally disagree with it, and that's okay, but its better to read an argument being laid out like this than short twitter style posts using over the top phrasing like 'sickening' and 'awfully run club', so thanks for taking the time to write it.

Why do I disagree? Mainly because what you are describing here is not a club that is accepting of mediocrity, but rather one that has fallen from a position of being far ahead of the pack to one that is now playing catch-up, and as we all know only too well there are a multitude of reasons for that too long and (by now) too dull to list all over again.

However, when people talk about City buying Haaland and the challengers 'kissing goodbye to the league for the next 10 years', I imagine that this is exactly how our opponents felt when United were breaking records to sign the likes of Rooney & Ferdinand. We always got the big players when we wanted them, because we had the full package. The financial muscle, the glamour, the team, the manager. The fact that we were caught up due to our challengers winning the football lottery, and not through decades of forward planning and minor improvements, is water under the bridge by now but it does mean that we lost some of the advantages that allowed us to consistently win trophies.

What I do take issue with is the constantly moving expectations. What you describe above is a team that should have won the title and choked. I think that's drastically unfair. There is 'accepting mediocrity' and then there is also properly understanding where a team really is, and this team is not ready to win the league yet. We are not yet good enough to compete with a team that can win 20 in a row when it matters. Anybody who has convinced themselves that we are is setting themselves up for disappointment, and frankly should all know better, but a lot of fans have seem to transitioned from a 'we'll be lucky to finish top 4' stance to a 'furious that we won't now win a treble' one and give no credit to a management & team that created that hope and made it possible.

It's what irks me the most about our fanbase and why I'm constantly considering quitting this forum. Zero consideration given for what is actual progress. No regard to the fact that we've played 32 matches in 15.5 weeks, and the affect that might have on performances and tactics. No analysis. Its just constant demands and simmering rage just waiting for the team to slip up so it can all boil over.
We are the modern day 'voyeurs' that Jose once alluded to, constantly looking over the fence wanting what everybody else has got (if you doubt that then witness the vomit-inducing fawning over everything Leicester since the game. Do you think City were making eyes at us in the same way after we dismantled them in similar style just 16 days ago?)

This is a long term project that was very briefly ahead of schedule but actually is exactly where many of us expected (hoped!) it would be at this point, which in itself is a notable achievement. Its just a shame that more of us cannot see it.

Great post.

 

[Bilbo]

Cheers. I guess where I disagree is in the belief there is a project. I see a lot of money being spent to satisfy the voyeurs and to me that money is being spent to accomplish what is required; top 4, and the attendant money. I also disagree that this, the present, could be seen as progress- this team was not cheap to assemble, it’s full of talented players, some more flawed than others, some perhaps less committed than others, so no different than most clubs in world football I’d say in that regard, but to hear it talked about as this group of plucky ahead of their timers....that doesn’t make sense to me. I guess what I’m getting at is it’s not so much if City signed Haaland well there goes the neighborhood for a decade, it’s the belief in my gut that if United signed Haaland....he wouldn’t achieve much under the current setup.

Thanks for replying, good chat

When you have a club the size of United whose finishes since we last won the title have been 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th, 3rd, then I absolutely feel comfortable with the first step in this project being establishing ourselves back in the top 4 on a regular basis. Its the obvious first target in a league that isn't La Liga or the Bundesliga where our peers on the global stage are all but guaranteed a high league position.

I think you have a point when you claim that our 'underdogs' tag is slightly oversold on here at times, but I don't think that anybody really believes that. I think its a direct consequence and counter-argument for those who are arguing that not winning the title is a failure, but there have been clear examples, for those who want to see them, of why this team have not been able to compete. Sometimes it takes new players to highlight the things we have been lacking. Bruno immediately illustrated our lack of leadership simply by being one. Cavani showed how poor our forward movement has been simply by doing it. Henderson looks like he is going to be a better commander of the area - another benefit for the team.

There is little doubt, to me anyway, that this team is improving. We haven't always played eye-catching football, but many of us warned that this was likely all the way back in August with this schedule. Our tactics IMO have been designed to manage that to some extent. Less pressing. Less sprints. This season has been about resilience. We don't lose very often. I believe the form we saw post-restart was a good example of the level of this team, and I think its how we will play next season after a good rest.

 

[Counterfactual]

As an outsider (see username: the man's first touch was legitimately atrocious, but he, like, tried really hard. And I loved that. I created a redcafe account because if I ever get enough posts/points/whatever, I can finally go in the Redafe "movie review thread" and tell them how they're some of the most brilliant & funny posters on the internet after lurking for years, that thread is pure gold. So, yes, you're talking to a crazy person- and knowing is half the battle) I'll offer my 2 cents on what "accepting mediocrity" means.

It is not that long ago that I and many others viewed Manchester United as some combination of the Death Star, Darth Vader (with helmet on), Rocky Balboa and the Terminator. Your club might have been down in matches but was never out, you won everything in sight, you could throw out 3 janitors in midfield and a roll of duct tape in defense and win 2-0. Sir Alex was a once in a lifetime manager, sure, but...there was an aura about United that surely extended beyond one man.

It's, what, less than a decade later? And your manager says cups are for the ego and is seen smiling and chortling and offering any excuse under the sun after every manner of defeat. I'm not just reacting to the FA Cup exit; this is something that has gone on for a long time. You've gone from outdated managers who set out to win things but were a bit past it, to a manager who is very happy to be there and be part of it all, who won't take the managers parking spot, a manager whose crowning career achievement was in Norwegian league 8 years ago.

Frankly, I'd much rather be fearful of you lot than watching a procession of plastic clubs and sports washing ventures proceed to dominate the landscape. I almost long for the days of being fearful of you lot. Instead I feel a bit of pity, because it all seems to start and end with your bloodsucking American owners and bullshit businessmen masquerading as football men. I feel that your owners and club hierarchy have been crystal clear with you the supporters on their expectations; Money=good, expectations of winning things=BAD. That's the Glazer reign in a nutshell for me. And I think they've found the perfect foil in Ole Gunnar Smilefactory, a good time fellow who will never, ever, ever rock the boat. He is happy to be there and they seem very happy to have him there.

Sorry to lose the thread; I was trying to summarize "accepting mediocrity". So Sir Alex retired, and you went from reasonably expecting to win the league at the start of every season, to now being locked in internecine wars about what the expectations should be, what anyone else could do with this squad, whether the players are fit for purpose, what kind of elite player in each position will bring out the best out of underperforming signings in that position, and on and on.

Every year United flame out of all cups, and a top 2 push is seen as real progress now, no matter the double digit distance to first. The aura is deader than dead. You're 2nd in the league yes, but with a budget that means you should be up there or thereabouts every year, and as soon as the games *might have mattered* you went on a desperate slide, only to beat City when things started to kinda not matter anymore. Similar to the green and gold scarves thing just sorta fading from sight, it is remarkable to me how many on here are just willing to say "well, who could he have rotated for Bruno" or whatever in lieu of actually asking that your manager manage well, and it's the same shit you'll be saying when Ole manages to crash out of the Europa League. Which I'd stake my nonexistent reputation on happening btw. You see, I watched your Champions League campaign this fall. And the semifinals last year. And the games in the league where the counter-attacking doesn't work. And..... All of this while the powers that be at your club are celebrating, ecstatic with the slide into mediocrity, because the dividends are rolling in nice and steady.

I think that's a bit of what your supporters mean when they talk about accepting mediocrity. Give Ole more time, give him more signings, sign Sancho, whatever, you'll be back here next season, trying to talk yourself into a 3rd place finish as progress because...reasons. Something is rotten in Denmark and it's plain to see; Manchester United has become a club designed to make money, winning things is beside the point. I think the supporters amongst you deserve better than being owned by 'mike ashley, but with a better PR team and far deeper pockets, because there are so so so many of you to milk'. Within 5 years I think the bantz will be something akin to "Lads......it's Manchester United."

And oddly enough, that bums me out.

Someone promote this newbie. We need more well-argued posts like this.