CL L Champions League Group H

Manchester United 1:3 Paris St Germain

Post-match discussion


Wed, 02 December 2020

tjb

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Like Rio and Scholes said, he was unplayable at times.
From the right side too, which is really good for us. At this point, I would rather start the rotation of Greenwood up front than stick with Martial or Rashford. We know he's our future no.9 and we will need him to be ready when Cavani goes.
Greenwood already has really good touches on the ball, good balance, control and decent pace. He has go to moves too. He simply needs to learn to use his head more and movements that both link and anticipate goals. In two years, that is a small amount of things to learn and due to his steady and consistent improvements in his game, I think it will happen.
 

Jonty

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Poor finishing and poor management cost us but entertaining nonetheless
 

Lash

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“Probably” should have taken Fred off?
feck a goat it was so obvious the ref would try to make up for his shocking 1st half decision. Don’t give him the chance. Anyone with half a brain could work that one out.
Yes we were generally the better team but I’m increasingly coming to the opinion that we should get rid of martial. CavanI is what a proper no9 looks like. He’s 33 and he probably ran twice as far as martial today.
Until that challenge though, it didn't even remotely look like Fred was getting sent off, so I'm not so sure. Hindsight is 20/20. He only could have brought Matic on probably anyway, which I'm not sure would have been the right move.

Martial certainly had a very poor game today, missing some big opportunities, I think his days as a no 9 here could be pretty numbered if he doesn't get back to his more clinical ways.
 

Tapori

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From the right side too, which is really good for us. At this point, I would rather start the rotation of Greenwood up front than stick with Martial or Rashford. We know he's our future no.9 and we will need him to be ready when Cavani goes.
Greenwood already has really good touches on the ball, good balance, control and decent pace. He has go to moves too. He simply needs to learn to use his head more and movements that both link and anticipate goals. In two years, that is a small amount of things to learn and due to his steady and consistent improvements in his game, I think it will happen.
I really like Rashford on the Right when a proper 9 like cavani plays
 

Becks00

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We effectively defeated ourselves in this game, not much to say that hasn't all been said already, would just add that we should stop this top sportsmanship thing and start learning how to use the dark arts ourselves. I really don't understand whatever paredes could have said to Fred that made him react the way he did but just has martial proved in the tottenham game we have a team of really dumb players, talented but really dumb except Bruno, Scott and may be Cavani the rest are just really stupid is beyond comprehesion. Ole really should get the players to act more smarter during a match, never f*****g lose focus that the goal is to win a match, no matter what opposition says to rile you up always remember the goal and keep your focus. It's really frustrating because under Fergie we used to be the ones who got under the skin of the opponent but now is being consistently done to us and so many teams going foward would see it as a viable tatic to get a result against us.

Just do anything and everything to win the match, the goal is always that, sorround the referee and influence his decisions, don't just stand and accept your lot, I know a lot of people on the Caf here would be against this, but it's pretty clear this side of the game is being actively encouraged by the authorities in the game.
 

The Purley King

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Until that challenge though, it didn't even remotely look like Fred was getting sent off, so I'm not so sure.
Really?
He maybe could/should have gone in the 1st half when he trod on parades foot.
He was 100% guaranteed to see red in that game.
Bollocks to all this “calculated risk” crap. Yes he’s been playing well but it’s not like we would be losing peak Roy Keane in there.
It’s criminally naive, end of.

EDIT also could have brought vdb on so not wholly reliant on matic
 

Lash

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Really?
He maybe could/should have gone in the 1st half when he trod on parades foot.
He was 100% guaranteed to see red in that game.
Bollocks to all this “calculated risk” crap. Yes he’s been playing well but it’s not like we would be losing peak Roy Keane in there.
It’s criminally naive, end of.

EDIT also could have brought vdb on so not wholly reliant on matic
Yeah, probably true. Forgot about that one. Was just thinking the second half.

I think against PSG he doesn't fancy not having two defensive minded CMs, especially when we weren't playing a back 3, I'm not sure VDB would have worked.

Still, I think it's swings and roundabouts. I didn't expect us to get a point in Paris and a couple of mistakes has cost us a draw - possibly the win. When we look back at the group, it won't be this we point to. It will be the Istanbul game.
 

tjb

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I really like Rashford on the Right when a proper 9 like cavani plays
I do too. Rashford's biggest probem for me is his decision making. Cutting inside forces him to have to be creative in his off the ball movement and in the way he dribbles to get central. A player like Neymar consistently has an arsenal of skills he can use to get in those central zones when he wants to. Messi's dribbling is so tight and his creativity both on and off the ball are so high that he can find himself in the zones he wants to be in. Rashford is an average dribbler, its his pace and aggression that make his runs deadly. When he's on the left, he usually has to wait for a defensive error to occur to gain a quick step on a defender because his dribbling and creativity in that role isn't strong enough; however on the right, due to playing on his right foot, he doesn't have to work at a disadvantage with his first touch or controlling the ball. It gives him the ability to accelerate before a defender can close him down, as he is on his stronger foot. So even when he wants to go central, he already has a head start over his defender.

Cutting inside as a wide player for me has always been more important for players who are good passers ( Ronaldinho, Neymar, Di Maria, Ribery, Messi) or having top level finishers ( Ronaldo, Salah, Robben). For most players, I don't actually think it's as useful, as the creativity both on and off the ball to get into those positions can cause less creative players to be anonymous in a lot of games.
 

The Purley King

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Yeah, probably true. Forgot about that one. Was just thinking the second half.

I think against PSG he doesn't fancy not having two defensive minded CMs, especially when we weren't playing a back 3, I'm not sure VDB would have worked.

Still, I think it's swings and roundabouts. I didn't expect us to get a point in Paris and a couple of mistakes has cost us a draw - possibly the win. When we look back at the group, it won't be this we point to. It will be the Istanbul game.
I agree the Istanbul game was worse but doesn’t excuse ole hamstringing us in this one..
I’m not blaming Fred as we all know what he is like. He doesn’t have the self control to pull out of that challenge like 99% of players on a yellow would.
Yes his second yellow wasn’t even a foul but when a ref knows he’s dropped a bollock beforehand you can guarantee he’ll find a way to make up for it later.
 

oses14

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Why didn't Ole pull Fred after that first foul that easily could have got Fred a red? Ole knew that Fred was most likely gonna commit a stupid foul to get him another yellow and sure enough he did. Bruno should have shot that instead of trying to pass it.

Overall, they played average definitely not what anyone was expecting.
 

Lash

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I agree the Istanbul game was worse but doesn’t excuse ole hamstringing us in this one..
I’m not blaming Fred as we all know what he is like. He doesn’t have the self control to pull out of that challenge like 99% of players on a yellow would.
Yes his second yellow wasn’t even a foul but when a ref knows he’s dropped a bollock beforehand you can guarantee he’ll find a way to make up for it later.
True, you're right. I did say to my dad at HT he should be off and I thought he would be. As the half went on and we grew into the game, I thought Ole had made the right call - then when we conceded it all just went to shit. There's probably a better argument for changing it immediately then, rather than HT, as he knew we'd be chasing the game at that point.
 

Fitchett

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This defeat is on three guys tonight. Martial for two shocking misses and a generally lifeless display, Fred for sheer stupidity in the first half, which led to the ref looking to make up for his mistake in not issuing a red card, Solskjaer for not subbing Fred at half time or earlier, when it was obvious to everyone that he was going to pick up a red card this evening.
 

Manny

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Just incredibly frustrating..

Conceding early after Mbappe walked through McT, Martial being non-present as ever and fluffing his lines, Rashford injured after looking like our best player and Fred loosing his head.

The West Ham game needs some heavy rotation and I'd say just rest anyone who needs to start against Leipzig
 

justsomebloke

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Let's keep some perspective here - this was a very good and essentially even game between two very good teams. Could have gone either way, but this time it was us drawing the shortest straw. Don't really feel bad about it - we've had wins I've felt worse about.

I kind of sympathise with the decision to keep Fred on. He'd had an excellent game, both defensively and offensively, and was really the driving force of the team. That's something you want to see in this team, and which we've not always had.

Two clear negatives: One was obviously Martials finishing. Overall his offensive contributions were better and more numerous than you'd expect with him playing on the wing, but he just doesn't score. He is obviously now in that classic striker dead zone where the non-scoring has become a thing in itself. The other was wobbly defense in the first half , where they did far too much backing into the box, and on several occasion struggled with marking and shape. For once I thought the central pairing was better than the full backs, with also some good offensive contributions from both Maguire and Lindelof. Telles in particular were again caught too far in-field on a few occasions, including on PSG first goal.

But otherwise, this was a good performance. Fred and McTominay were both excellent, McTominay especially defensively in the second half. We created quite a lot of good offensive play, Cavani moving relentlessly and well and Rashford creating lots down the right flank, though he took some time to get going. And it was a team effort, in fact one of the better attacking performances they've delivered this season. Except for the finishing. Bruno less good than usual though. And that shot from Pogba - what a goal that would have been.

Good performance, and losing to PSG is nothing to be ashamed about. Hope they build off the positives here for the West Ham game.
 

Get In Scholesy

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Tough result to stomach obviously, but when you don’t finish your chances along with going down to 10 men, there isn’t much else to expect.

I may get stick for saying this, but if we manage to finish 3rd and drop into the Europa League, I’m not too sold on taking it seriously this season.

With the fixture congestion it might bring, I don’t think our squad has the capacity to manage it.

Rather we focus on the league and go for it, as unpredictable as it has been thus far, managing the schedule to prioritize the league might be our best option.

That being said, feck that, let’s go and beat Leipzig.
 

sammsky1

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Tough result to stomach obviously, but when you don’t finish your chances along with going down to 10 men, there isn’t much else to expect.

I may get stick for saying this, but if we manage to finish 3rd and drop into the Europa League, I’m not too sold on taking it seriously this season.

With the fixture congestion it might bring, I don’t think our squad has the capacity to manage it.

Rather we focus on the league and go for it, as unpredictable as it has been thus far, managing the schedule to prioritize the league might be our best option.

That being said, feck that, let’s go and beat Leipzig.
100% agree. Would have less priority than League Cup for me.
But am very confident we’ll do the needful next week at Leipzig.
 

glazed

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Until that challenge though, it didn't even remotely look like Fred was getting sent off, so I'm not so sure. Hindsight is 20/20. He only could have brought Matic on probably anyway, which I'm not sure would have been the right move.
I mean scholes literally said at half time Fred got away with murder and should now come off for VdB. I was staggered that he didn't. No hindsight required.
 

justsomebloke

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Pros. Our team is actually very good. Despite being set up to counter, despite there being no connection between Bruno and a CM behind him, we actually played well due to our individual talent. I can only dream of what we’ll do when
1) Ole develops a proper system/style of play
2) Ole realises we have the players to dominate most matches and don’t have to play a low block vs PSG with two holding CM’s
OK, so you've basically just decided that we don't have a system, so if we play well, it's got to be due to "individual talent". And you think we're playing a low block because we have two central midfielders, and that we could have dominated PSG if only the manager wasn't too cowardly.

Fred and McTominay both had excellent games today, and our transition play through the midfield, as well as our marked ability to regain the ball, were two of the strongest aspects of the team's performance - both in large part due to them. The central midfield was arguably the best-functioning part of the team, for once. They were TOTALLY the right choice of midfielders.
 

croadyman

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We created more than them but when you miss chances against quality opposition you often pay the price.They were more clinical than us and that's the reason we are still battling to qualify.
 

justsomebloke

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Ive never seen such an obvious red card in my life. I was genuinely angry, baffled and shocked to see Fred still out there on 46 minutes.

A player aggressively produces a head butt motion and gets a yellow, is on borrowed time. A good tackle was deemed a 2nd yellow. That’s how obvious it was.

DVB on at half time secures 11 v 11 for 90 mins.

Risk v opportunity completely misjudged
I disagree. It didn't look to me like a head butt motion. Paredes put his forehead rather aggressively against his, and Fred basically swiped his head away sideways. More a movement away from Paredes than at him.

Obviously a debatable decision to keep Fred on, but certainly not by any means obvious that he should have been taken off. He was possibly our best player out there.
 

Devil may care

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Very odd game, we didn't start well but after we conceded we took control of the first half and were all over them for the first 25 minutes of the second and then in a mad minute we are 2-1 down and a man down. We still fought on pretty well but just couldn't get the goal we needed and the way we pushed for it was always going to leave us vulnerable to conceding a 3rd.

I was surprised Fred didn't get sent off for the head push, Parades play acted but in those situations I don't think I've ever seen a player not get a red, the frustrating thing was he then got a 2nd yellow that shouldn't have been a yellow.

I see Ole's thread bumped so I'm sure most are unhappy with him tonight, I think not taking Fred off at half time was a 50/50 call, it's about a manager showing trust but it's a risk and in yhis case it backfired. My main issue was him taking Cavani off when we were chasing the game and putting Mason up on his own, then realizing he needed a focal point and throws Igalho.

I still think we'll get what we need from the Leipzig game.
 

Borys

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There was nothing wrong with Fred's (2nd yellow) tackle.
The issue I think was that the referee knew he messed up by not sending Fred off in the first half, so the first opportunity the referee got, he gave him a 2nd yellow.
Yeah thinking about it, that seems to be most likely scenario.
 

croadyman

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“Probably” should have taken Fred off?
feck a goat it was so obvious the ref would try to make up for his shocking 1st half decision. Don’t give him the chance. Anyone with half a brain could work that one out.
Yes we were generally the better team but I’m increasingly coming to the opinion that we should get rid of martial. CavanI is what a proper no9 looks like. He’s 33 and he probably ran twice as far as martial today.
Yeah it's not hard to lose faith in Tony as he has had more than enough chances in his five years here. He cannot be disappointed that Edinson has taken the no 9 role because has proved himself.
 

always_hoping

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At the weekend I was buzzing for days after that win v Southampton. Tonight hours after the game I'm still left extremely frustrated that United didn't get at least a draw out of that game.

That's the nature of following this club nowadays and at least it isn't a borefest as it was for a lot of Jose, Van Gaal era as United managers.
 

Eckers99

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We lack that killer instinct and it was always going to catch up with us eventually. Tonight was the night.
 

croadyman

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We lack that killer instinct and it was always going to catch up with us eventually. Tonight was the night.
Yeah tonight showed we are not ruthless enough in the big moments when we are in the ascendancy during games
 

Greck

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Let's keep some perspective here - this was a very good and essentially even game between two very good teams. Could have gone either way, but this time it was us drawing the shortest straw. Don't really feel bad about it - we've had wins I've felt worse about.

I kind of sympathise with the decision to keep Fred on. He'd had an excellent game, both defensively and offensively, and was really the driving force of the team. That's something you want to see in this team, and which we've not always had.

Two clear negatives: One was obviously Martials finishing. Overall his offensive contributions were better and more numerous than you'd expect with him playing on the wing, but he just doesn't score. He is obviously now in that classic striker dead zone where the non-scoring has become a thing in itself. The other was wobbly defense in the first half , where they did far too much backing into the box, and on several occasion struggled with marking and shape. For once I thought the central pairing was better than the full backs, with also some good offensive contributions from both Maguire and Lindelof. Telles in particular were again caught too far in-field on a few occasions, including on PSG first goal.

But otherwise, this was a good performance. Fred and McTominay were both excellent, McTominay especially defensively in the second half. We created quite a lot of good offensive play, Cavani moving relentlessly and well and Rashford creating lots down the right flank, though he took some time to get going. And it was a team effort, in fact one of the better attacking performances they've delivered this season. Except for the finishing. Bruno less good than usual though. And that shot from Pogba - what a goal that would have been.

Good performance, and losing to PSG is nothing to be ashamed about. Hope they build off the positives here for the West Ham game.
Good post but disagree on Fred being any kind of a driving force. In fact even with 10 men the team continued to play decently without him. He should have been taken off. We wouldn't have collapsed without him. There's a reason the conventional wisdom in that situation says you always take the player off. That reason is multiplied when you factor in the fact that he would have to defend a full hour with the likes of Neymar and Mbappe running at him. Basic risk assessment makes it a no-brainer to take the player off. You stand more to lose versus what you have to gain. You can survive a substitution but not a sending off. It was a bad bet

edit: The odds were even worsened by the gravity of what was on the line, which is our entire CL campaign. Hopefully beat RB and put this in the rearview because I won't be watching a single Europa game this year. Miserable competition
 
Last edited:

HowieC

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I do too. Rashford's biggest probem for me is his decision making. Cutting inside forces him to have to be creative in his off the ball movement and in the way he dribbles to get central. A player like Neymar consistently has an arsenal of skills he can use to get in those central zones when he wants to. Messi's dribbling is so tight and his creativity both on and off the ball are so high that he can find himself in the zones he wants to be in. Rashford is an average dribbler, its his pace and aggression that make his runs deadly. When he's on the left, he usually has to wait for a defensive error to occur to gain a quick step on a defender because his dribbling and creativity in that role isn't strong enough; however on the right, due to playing on his right foot, he doesn't have to work at a disadvantage with his first touch or controlling the ball. It gives him the ability to accelerate before a defender can close him down, as he is on his stronger foot. So even when he wants to go central, he already has a head start over his defender.

Cutting inside as a wide player for me has always been more important for players who are good passers ( Ronaldinho, Neymar, Di Maria, Ribery, Messi) or having top level finishers ( Ronaldo, Salah, Robben). For most players, I don't actually think it's as useful, as the creativity both on and off the ball to get into those positions can cause less creative players to be anonymous in a lot of games.
Great post, v accurate
 

redmanx

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Let's keep some perspective here - this was a very good and essentially even game between two very good teams. Could have gone either way, but this time it was us drawing the shortest straw. Don't really feel bad about it - we've had wins I've felt worse about.

I kind of sympathise with the decision to keep Fred on. He'd had an excellent game, both defensively and offensively, and was really the driving force of the team. That's something you want to see in this team, and which we've not always had.

Two clear negatives: One was obviously Martials finishing. Overall his offensive contributions were better and more numerous than you'd expect with him playing on the wing, but he just doesn't score. He is obviously now in that classic striker dead zone where the non-scoring has become a thing in itself. The other was wobbly defense in the first half , where they did far too much backing into the box, and on several occasion struggled with marking and shape. For once I thought the central pairing was better than the full backs, with also some good offensive contributions from both Maguire and Lindelof. Telles in particular were again caught too far in-field on a few occasions, including on PSG first goal.

But otherwise, this was a good performance. Fred and McTominay were both excellent, McTominay especially defensively in the second half. We created quite a lot of good offensive play, Cavani moving relentlessly and well and Rashford creating lots down the right flank, though he took some time to get going. And it was a team effort, in fact one of the better attacking performances they've delivered this season. Except for the finishing. Bruno less good than usual though. And that shot from Pogba - what a goal that would have been.

Good performance, and losing to PSG is nothing to be ashamed about. Hope they build off the positives here for the West Ham game.
I agree, no manager expects his players to pick up red cards and they hope the players are intelligent enough to keep out of trouble. Fred has been playing well and has contributed to our recent run so Ole no doubt hoped he would continue to do so. The ref was fooled and Fred had to go. No manager can wipe his players bums every minute of every match, they have to learn to look out for themselves and not to get embroiled in the histrionics of the opposition. The same goes for Martial, Ole cant go on the pitch and score goals for him, though if the Ole of old had been playing he would have certainly scored where Martial couldnt! Its time to "rest" Martial who is still far too inconsistent and give Cavani a good run in his place. A draw against Leipzig is a big challenge but it can be done if the players all get their fingers out of their bums and put in a good, solid performance.
 

NewGlory

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This game was lost when Ole started Fred and McT in the midfield, betting on counter-attacks. Sure, we usually play better on counters, but that is only if we can absorb the opponent's attacks. Our back four never had any chance of absorbing Mbappe and Neymar. We would have done better starting DvB. Fred's red card didn't help obviously, but our tactics set us back way before that.
 

DSG

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Sorry but that one is on Ole. We all said Fred should have been subbed at half time. It was a red card waiting to happen. Irrelevant score line after we went 2-1 down, always chasing the game. Lsts just move on.
Very weird game.
Can’t understand why ref didn’t send off Fred for headbutt
Can’t understand why OGS didn’t take Fred off and replace with Matic or Donny. Ole dropped a big ball there.
2nd yellow on Fred was unfortunate.
Martial misses a complete sitter. Cavani should also have nailed his chip.

very frustrating loss as PSG aren’t great and were beatable.
Have to disagree.

Thought we played ok in patches against one of Europe's biggest bottle jobs. There for the taking, some great forward I grant you but an average team in average league we should be beating them.

Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory with poor management. Take Fred, off ride out the game and come away with a scrappy draw. This kind of poor management invites pressure now. He shouldn't risk big name players now against West Ham so we can goto Germany in decent nick. He maybe forced to now though. If we lose to Leipzig the only real route back into the Champions League next season will be via Automatic Qualification.

No doubt them c**nts from West Ham will play like Prime 70's Brazil on Saturday night.
We had them against the ropes. Controlled the game. I see this as the following SQUAD and MANAGEMENT mistakes:

1. Ole didn't go with a 3-5-2, adding Tuanzebe, like we played in Paris. Why? PSG really didn't threaten in Paris and we looked deadly on the break.
2. Fred. In my opinion, Paredes AND Fred should have been sent off. Paredes for taunting and placing his forehead on Fred, and Fred for retaliating. The second yellow for Fred was going to come anyhow.
3. Ole should have pulled Fred at halftime.
4. Tony Martial. How could someone have such sublime moments, but at the same time, miss so many easy chances???
5. I thought Marquinhos foot was slightly ahead of Cavani's, and thus offside. Where is the VAR with lines?

No issues with Cavani missing the chip. He was excellent all night.

Look, I've been a staunch supporter of Ole throughout, but I'm starting to wonder if he's the manager to take us to titles and seriously challenge for the league.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Looking at this game objectively, it's a very good football match.

Subjectively...
We were again disappointing in regards to missing easy chances and the Fred debacles.

That said, wow :D says a lot about how shit PSG were that they had to resort to cheat and winding our players up to get advantages. Guess they finally learned from last two games against us that we were not lucky and actually we're damn good with far better quality players.
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Say whatever you want, because Martial shit the bed and Fred 100% should have been replaced before his red, but this is the first time I can remember since SAF left that a played a top European side and absolutely dominated the game. Both in possession and pressing wise, we looked the better side pretty much the entire game, which hasn't happened against the bigger clubs. Most of the time we've been the team sitting back and countering top teams, which is where we are comfortable. But we went directly at PSG, and were we not wasteful we probably put 3-5 past them.

Shit result, but I was really pleased with the majority of the team. Martial and Bruno were the only two players I watched and thought were poor, and Martial was mainly due to his finishing. Fred I thought was actually okay apart from his recklessness that got him sent off. Defense did about as well as you can hope for who we have and how aggressive we were in our gameplay.
 

SpanishMain

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This defeat is on three guys tonight. Martial for two shocking misses and a generally lifeless display, Fred for sheer stupidity in the first half, which led to the ref looking to make up for his mistake in not issuing a red card, Solskjaer for not subbing Fred at half time or earlier, when it was obvious to everyone that he was going to pick up a red card this evening.
Add one more: Magurie. With Fred running around like a bull in a china shop, our captain should have done "something" to get him back in line.
 

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  • 9% Man Utd 1:2 PSG
  • 9% Man Utd 2:2 PSG
  • 7% Man Utd 0:2 PSG
  • 6% Man Utd 1:0 PSG
  • 6% Man Utd 2:0 PSG
  • 5% Man Utd 3:1 PSG
  • 2% Man Utd 3:0 PSG
  • 2% Man Utd 3:2 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:0 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 1:3 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:1 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 0:3 PSG
  • 1% Man Utd 4:1 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 4:0 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 0:5 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 4:3 PSG
  • 0% Man Utd 2:3 PSG
Compiled from 215 predictions.
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Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. PSG
Possession
44% 56%
Shots
12 13
Shots on Target
5 6
Corners
3 5
Fouls
20 10

Referee

Daniele Orsato