PL D FA Premier League

Manchester United 2:2 Southampton

Post-match discussion


Mon, 13 July 2020

Maagge

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We look tired, and I have no idea why Ole waited that long with his subs. At 2-1 with a visibly tired squad out there it wasn't about getting the 3-1 goal first and foremost. Get McTominay, Fred, James and maybe Ighalo on earlier. We know the first three can run for days and Ighalo will provide someone to play it up on.
Credit to Southampton though, they played a good game and deserved to get something from it.

I think our general play has been masked a bit by the great results (and maybe poor opposition?).
Our pressing in general isn't that coherent. Often you'll see Fernandes press urgently and gesturing to e.g. Martial or Rashford to press as well. That results in pressing half-heartedly around Fernandes which means the opponents still has a chance of playing a good pass to someone in space because the player in space wasn't closed down quickly enough. Whether Fernandes is going against the tactical instructions with his pressing or the others are, I don't know, but it looks strange and you can often see Fernandes visibly frustrated by it.
We aren't great at getting the ball out of defence either. Too many slightly off passes, passes that needs an extra touch to control or generally moving it too slowly or dwelling on the ball in dangerous areas.

There's still a lot of work ahead for this team. At least we gained a point on Chelsea and Leicester but if we show up at Selhurst like we did today we'll be in for a long night.
 

crossy1686

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It's easy to say you can beat the high press with one touch, but you need the players who can play one touch.
That’s my point, we’re still missing some quality in the middle, either in movement or vision. It can probably be trained into the players but it will take time.
 

crossy1686

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It doesn’t always have to be someone’s fault you know folks.

We can be unlucky.
We can have a shit ref.
The other team can be better on the day.

We can’t win every single game we play otherwise we’d be the best team ever to grace the PL. Sometimes shit happens.

We just have to respond strongly to this to prove it was an uncharacteristic mistake.
 

Berbasbullet

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It doesn’t always have to be someone’s fault you know folks.

We can be unlucky.
We can have a shit ref.
The other team can be better on the day.

We can’t win every single game we play otherwise we’d be the best team ever to grace the PL. Sometimes shit happens.

We just have to respond strongly to this to prove it was an uncharacteristic mistake.
Basically how I feel, it was heart breaking conceding that goal at the end as the lads proper fought for it out there in a bruising battle, especially with 10 men.

But we created loads of chances that we should have put away, it happens. Move on and win the next game and things will be much rosier.
 

Siorac

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It doesn’t always have to be someone’s fault you know folks.

We can be unlucky.
We can have a shit ref.
The other team can be better on the day.

We can’t win every single game we play otherwise we’d be the best team ever to grace the PL. Sometimes shit happens.

We just have to respond strongly to this to prove it was an uncharacteristic mistake.
That's the thing, isn't it: it was a very characteristic mistake. It's what we always do in the post-Fergie era. Our rivals dropped points, they look vulnerable - and instead of taking advantage we respond with a dreadful performance. That's the concern, that nothing has really changed. That it will be like 2016/17 when we had a 20+ game unbeaten run that took us all the way from sixth to... sixth.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Annoying result but they're a good team Southampton. They've been on a good run and have the quality to beat teams like City it seems. Maybe a draw isn't too bad.
Think people only watch United and have not taken note of how well Southampton have been and are actually surprised of their pressing game. It's what they do.
 

DomesticTadpole

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That's the thing, isn't it: it was a very characteristic mistake. It's what we always do in the post-Fergie era. Our rivals dropped points, they look vulnerable - and instead of taking advantage we respond with a dreadful performance. That's the concern, that nothing has really changed. That it will be like 2016/17 when we had a 20+ game unbeaten run that took us all the way from sixth to... sixth.
There were times during the Fergie era they used to do that, it isn't a new thing. Fergie's sides didn't always make it easy for themselves.
 

Siorac

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There were times during the Fergie era they used to do that, it isn't a new thing. Fergie's sides didn't always make it easy for themselves.
Of course. Failing to take advantage of a rival's stumble happens to every team sometimes. We are, however, very consistent at it. We basically only gain points on Chelsea this season when we get to play first. And we did the same thing last season or in 2016/17: we kept squandering opportunities to get in the top 4.
 

FrankDrebin

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No doubting Soton's ability. That's been on show for sometime throughout the course of the season.
What I find concerning is how easily they dealt with us for the majority of the game. Their passing was sharp and intuitive,their structure was regimented and balanced and minor a few moments they thoroughly deserved a point.

Looking at that game you wouldn't have thought we were ,not only the team competing for a top 4 spot, but the ones who've gone unbeaten for a considerable time.

They were the strongest team we've faced interms of consistency and it showed.
 

Fosu-Mens

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It was just a matter of time before a team succeeded in stopping our build-up play through the middle. It highlighted our dependability on our 3 starting midfielders and the problems that arise when trying to progress the ball when one or two of them are replaced by Fred/McT.
And it indicated that having fullbacks that can contribute more in the buildup would be beneficial so that teams cannot fill the middle of the pitch with players.
 

Joseunited

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One draw and everyone loses the plot.Get a grip 3 wins and we get top 4.You'd think we were woeful last night if you read through this thread.Level with Leicester with 3 games to go.Some of you need to remember how far behind them we were at the turn of the year.
 

FrankDrebin

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They doubled up on Greenwood and gave Rashford quite alot of room in the process. Interesting.
 

EwanI Ted

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One disappointment from last night was Ole’s lack of a back up plan to deal with the press. If a team presses you, you need at least the option of an out ball that goes straight over the front line to the space behind. That can be long balls down the channels, into the chest of a striker or whatever. Once Southampton got into their stride and we got nervous, continuing to play slowly from the back was a poor strategy. Given we had igahlo ok the bench, it’s a shame we didn’t use him.
 

charlenefan

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One disappointment from last night was Ole’s lack of a back up plan to deal with the press. If a team presses you, you need at least the option of an out ball that goes straight over the front line to the space behind. That can be long balls down the channels, into the chest of a striker or whatever. Once Southampton got into their stride and we got nervous, continuing to play slowly from the back was a poor strategy. Given we had igahlo ok the bench, it’s a shame we didn’t use him.
The 2nd goal really highlighted how we should have played to beat their press rather than force it through the middle work it wide and then infield and yet for some reason we didn't do it after that second goal
 

FrankDrebin

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Ighalo not being used was bizarre ,especially as we were panickly going long.
 

Adam-Utd

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The 2nd goal really highlighted how we should have played to beat their press rather than force it through the middle work it wide and then infield and yet for some reason we didn't do it after that second goal
Bingo.

it seems we were totally unaware how to beat it. The one time we did it successfully we scored.

For some reason our defence seem happy to take all the time in the world, then try to force a ball into midfield falling straight into their trap. As you say we needed to pull them wide, go back then quickly switch it to the other side where all the space was. Look at how Southampton setup, they play a very narrow 2 banks of 3 that leave you plenty of room down the sides. They obviously did their research and new that we like to use Pogba as the main build up. As soon as we got the ball into his feet he had Ings pressing him from behind and their CM flying into him.

It doesn't help either that DDG is practically a traffic cone lately, he isn't helping us enough with the ball at his feet. We really needed that 1 man extra to help ride the press but he's just so slow at distributing and keeps kicking the ball out of play, really frustrating.
 

sugar_kane

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Post win (Villa) thread after nearly a week - 8 pages

Post draw thread after about 12 hours - 22 pages

I was raging when their goal went in but it was inevitable - we looked knackered and they worked their arses off all match. We just never really got a grip on the game at any point.

Main positives are the way we instantly bounced back from them scoring but a few of our best players (Pogba, Fernandes, Greenwood) looked off the pace today. It happens and it's shit but it's football and we just need to get over it and focus on winning the next three, as it's still in our hands and Chelsea/Leicester have a few tough games yet.
 

Denis' cuff

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Post win (Villa) thread after nearly a week - 8 pages

Post draw thread after about 12 hours - 22 pages

I was raging when their goal went in but it was inevitable - we looked knackered and they worked their arses off all match. We just never really got a grip on the game at any point.

Main positives are the way we instantly bounced back from them scoring but a few of our best players (Pogba, Fernandes, Greenwood) looked off the pace today. It happens and it's shit but it's football and we just need to get over it and focus on winning the next three, as it's still in our hands and Chelsea/Leicester have a few tough games yet.
Exactly ;)

In hindsight, almost any period in the past 7 years, we’d have lost that.

We’re gonna be taking two steps forward and one back for a while yet. Heading in the right direction and still early days for this squad. Let’s see how we finish. Just hope the parasites invest where we need it and we can keep improving. Most promising period since Fergie.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Understand what? Surely you’re not comparing this team to the ones that had Jones and Smalling starting at CB, Fellaini starting in midfield or “No knees” Falcao at 9. The team is looking massively improved and we drew against a team that beat city while using the same 11 for every game since the restart. If not for 2 unlucky injuries, we win this game.
That team finished fourth one year.
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Bingo.

it seems we were totally unaware how to beat it. The one time we did it successfully we scored.

For some reason our defence seem happy to take all the time in the world, then try to force a ball into midfield falling straight into their trap. As you say we needed to pull them wide, go back then quickly switch it to the other side where all the space was. Look at how Southampton setup, they play a very narrow 2 banks of 3 that leave you plenty of room down the sides. They obviously did their research and new that we like to use Pogba as the main build up. As soon as we got the ball into his feet he had Ings pressing him from behind and their CM flying into him.

It doesn't help either that DDG is practically a traffic cone lately, he isn't helping us enough with the ball at his feet. We really needed that 1 man extra to help ride the press but he's just so slow at distributing and keeps kicking the ball out of play, really frustrating.
Mourinho spoke about this when we lost to City once, called it the first station ball, the process of playing the pass to either the nearest man or most likely pass means the opposition's press is far more effective etc.
 

DevilRed

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He's quicker no doubt. Needs to get his head straight though and back to the quality he showed when Jose signed him
As with many of our defenders, he just needs to stay healthy and get a proper run of matches.

Tuanzebe was the one I had high hopes in this season. I was convinced he would have replaced Lindelof as Maguire's partner at some point this season. Sadly, injuries yet again have robbed him of this chance and possibly set him back for a long time.

OGS really just doesn't have much luck as a manager when it comes to injuries and losing key players at the worse possible times.
 

crossy1686

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That's the thing, isn't it: it was a very characteristic mistake. It's what we always do in the post-Fergie era. Our rivals dropped points, they look vulnerable - and instead of taking advantage we respond with a dreadful performance. That's the concern, that nothing has really changed. That it will be like 2016/17 when we had a 20+ game unbeaten run that took us all the way from sixth to... sixth.
For me, the only thing that costs us these days is individual errors from the back 5 or poor finishing.

If Solskjaer can stomp those out through training or bringing players in who can focus better we’ll be absolutely fine.
 

Denis' cuff

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For me, the only thing that costs us these days is individual errors from the back 5 or poor finishing.

If Solskjaer can stomp those out through training or bringing players in who can focus better we’ll be absolutely fine.

He will;)
 

Siorac

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For me, the only thing that costs us these days is individual errors from the back 5 or poor finishing.

If Solskjaer can stomp those out through training or bringing players in who can focus better we’ll be absolutely fine.
It's very very misleading and dangerous to attribute yesterday to individual errors or poor finishing. We were outplayed for most of the game. We had no control in midfield, we could not keep possession when it mattered, we had no answer to Southampton's pressing. That is a systemic issue, a problem with fitness, or tactics, or mentality, or all of these.

Yes, despite all these we could have held on and won the game anyway because that's how football is - Portsmouth somehow beat us in the 2008 FA Cup despite being battered for the entire game, after all - but that doesn't mean these issues aren't real or that we can safely ignore them. The Villa game was already a sort of warning sign: they are, let's face it, shite but we could barely string two passes together until the Fernandes penalty because we couldn't deal with their pressing.
 

Berbasbullet

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It's very very misleading and dangerous to attribute yesterday to individual errors or poor finishing. We were outplayed for most of the game. We had no control in midfield, we could not keep possession when it mattered, we had no answer to Southampton's pressing. That is a systemic issue, a problem with fitness, or tactics, or mentality, or all of these.

Yes, despite all these we could have held on and won the game anyway because that's how football is - Portsmouth somehow beat us in the 2008 FA Cup despite being battered for the entire game, after all - but that doesn't mean these issues aren't real or that we can safely ignore them. The Villa game was already a sort of warning sign: they are, let's face it, shite but we could barely string two passes together until the Fernandes penalty because we couldn't deal with their pressing.
I agree with parts, but we were hardly battered. I think we were poor in possession but we created way more.
 

Inigo Montoya

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As with many of our defenders, he just needs to stay healthy and get a proper run of matches.

Tuanzebe was the one I had high hopes in this season. I was convinced he would have replaced Lindelof as Maguire's partner at some point this season. Sadly, injuries yet again have robbed him of this chance and possibly set him back for a long time.

OGS really just doesn't have much luck as a manager when it comes to injuries and losing key players at the worse possible times.
And that will be his fault of course:rolleyes:
 

crossy1686

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It's very very misleading and dangerous to attribute yesterday to individual errors or poor finishing. We were outplayed for most of the game. We had no control in midfield, we could not keep possession when it mattered, we had no answer to Southampton's pressing. That is a systemic issue, a problem with fitness, or tactics, or mentality, or all of these.

Yes, despite all these we could have held on and won the game anyway because that's how football is - Portsmouth somehow beat us in the 2008 FA Cup despite being battered for the entire game, after all - but that doesn't mean these issues aren't real or that we can safely ignore them. The Villa game was already a sort of warning sign: they are, let's face it, shite but we could barely string two passes together until the Fernandes penalty because we couldn't deal with their pressing.
Our biggest players had off days and looked knackered by the 60th minute. Sometimes it isn’t your day, remember when we were 4-2 up against Everton and Evra hit the post? Sometimes your luck just runs out.

There doesn’t need to be a grand investigation and autopsy every time we drop points. Sometimes multiple things go against you in a match and you have to hold your hands up and say they were better than us on the day.

We aren’t the first team Southampton have done that to by the way. They did exactly the same to City last week but they couldn’t even score 1, let alone 2.
 

Siorac

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I agree with parts, but we were hardly battered. I think we were poor in possession but we created way more.
Yeah but that's to be expected - our opponents were talked up massively as an "excellent team" after the game but they're 12th and they're there for a reason. Palace, who lost the last five, are only three points behind them... Of course a team fielding Pogba, Fernandes, Martial, Rashford and Greenwood will create more than them.
 

Denis' cuff

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Yeah but that's to be expected - our opponents were talked up massively as an "excellent team" after the game but they're 12th and they're there for a reason. Palace, who lost the last five, are only three points behind them... Of course a team fielding Pogba, Fernandes, Martial, Rashford and Greenwood will create more than them.

Ever heard of “current form”?
 

crossy1686

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Yeah but that's to be expected - our opponents were talked up massively as an "excellent team" after the game but they're 12th and they're there for a reason. Palace, who lost the last five, are only three points behind them... Of course a team fielding Pogba, Fernandes, Martial, Rashford and Greenwood will create more than them.
On home form they’re terrible but for some reason their away form in the best in the league. Puts them in a CL place on away form alone
 

Berbasbullet

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Our biggest players had off days and looked knackered by the 60th minute. Sometimes it isn’t your day, remember when we were 4-2 up against Everton and Evra hit the post? Sometimes your luck just runs out.

There doesn’t need to be a grand investigation and autopsy every time we drop points. Sometimes multiple things go against you in a match and you have to hold your hands up and say they were better than us on the day.

We aren’t the first team Southampton have done that to by the way. They did exactly the same to City last week but they couldn’t even score 1, let alone 2.
I agree with this, in football things can be out of your control. It wasn't a great performance, but we should have wond despite this, let's bounce back.
 

Siorac

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Our biggest players had off days and looked knackered by the 60th minute. Sometimes it isn’t your day, remember when we were 4-2 up against Everton and Evra hit the post? Sometimes your luck just runs out.

There doesn’t need to be a grand investigation and autopsy every time we drop points. Sometimes multiple things go against you in a match and you have to hold your hands up and say they were better than us on the day.

We aren’t the first team Southampton have done that to by the way. They did exactly the same to City last week but they couldn’t even score 1, let alone 2.
Well, no, not exactly the same. That's the thing. City basically laid siege to their goal for 60 minutes. 74% possession, 26 attempts... That was a very typical "small-team-beats-big-team" performance: backs to the wall, keeper performing heroics, and so on. We, on the other hand, were outplayed for most of the game (though admittedly we weren't behind for most of the game unlike City were so that does account for some of the difference).

As you say, we have to hold our hands up and say they were better than us. But the 12th placed team shouldn't outplay our best XI at our own place. It shows that we still have a long, long, long way to go before we get where we want to be.
 

JJ12

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We looked tired and not at it for the majority of the game - given the fixture list and the lack of rotation we shouldn't be surprised. Still nearly got the result.

Dropping points hurts again for me - I became numb to it over the last 7 years. When we are good dropping points hurts more.
 

crossy1686

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Well, no, not exactly the same. That's the thing. City basically laid siege to their goal for 60 minutes. 74% possession, 26 attempts... That was a very typical "small-team-beats-big-team" performance: backs to the wall, keeper performing heroics, and so on. We, on the other hand, were outplayed for most of the game (though admittedly we weren't behind for most of the game unlike City were so that does account for some of the difference).

As you say, we have to hold our hands up and say they were better than us. But the 12th placed team shouldn't outplay our best XI at our own place. It shows that we still have a long, long, long way to go before we get where we want to be.
This is just a prime example of why everyone loves the PL, anyone can beat anyone, regardless on position in the league.

There were different phases of play where either team had the momentum but Southampton were better in the second half and we looked knackered.

We’d all be having a very different discussion if the ref or VAR would have done its job properly and Romeu got a red, or Williams didn’t get his head smashed in during the last 5 minutes. Those are the margins.

I think we’re all annoyed because for a second we had expectations of 3rd that were dashed last minute. There’s still time though, I trust we’ll get there in the next couple of games.
 

Siorac

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We looked tired and not at it for the majority of the game - given the fixture list and the lack of rotation we shouldn't be surprised. Still nearly got the result.

Dropping points hurts again for me - I became numb to it over the last 7 years. When we are good dropping points hurts more.
Yeah exactly! Under Mourinho there was a tired inevitability to it all - but after our recent form I almost started to believe that we could come good again. It hurts all the more for that.
 

Siorac

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This is just a prime example of why everyone loves the PL, anyone can beat anyone, regardless on position in the league.

There were different phases of play where either team had the momentum but Southampton were better in the second half and we looked knackered.

We’d all be having a very different discussion if the ref or VAR would have done its job properly and Romeu got a red, or Williams didn’t get his head smashed in during the last 5 minutes. Those are the margins.

I think we’re all annoyed because for a second we had expectations of 3rd that were dashed last minute. There’s still time though, I trust we’ll get there in the next couple of games.
Sure, if Romeu had got the red he so richly deserved the game would have been very different. I still can't figure it out how VAR took a look at it and concluded "oh yeah that's fine, it seems he didn't manage to actually break Greenwood's leg".

Williams, I'm not sure about. Yeah, if that doesn't happen we might have got the three points - far from certain as to me a goal pretty much looked inevitable from the 70th minute - but we'd still be talking about how terribly we played and how we had zero control in midfield.
 

mitchmouse

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Huge step backwards: we found it difficult to break down a defence that defended properly, Ole looked caught in the headlights and I have no idea why he totally changed the midfield with the subs. Pogba and Bruno didn't have their best games but to pull both off was odd - unless he had brought on extra defenders.

Plus - although he scored a good goal - Martial missed a very good chance to put us ahead which a top goal-scorer would have put away and (as I've warned for weeks) proved oh so costly. All in all, a very poor team performance.

Worst of all: you could see their equaliser coming for at least 20 minutes. We were so poor for first 20 mins and most of the second half - what the hell was said at half time? I'm guessing most people blame Lindelof for the goal but we were asleep at the corner (I realise we were hit by the Williams injury). In fact, Lindelof was probably our MoM; he was way better than Maguire.

Had we gone third, I think it would have given us the momentum to hold on to a top-four finish and maybe even driven us to win one of the cups. Now I am very worried. We need Spurs or Liverpool to do us a favour which I wouldn't bet on and having to go to Leicester on the last day and win will be very very difficult.

I am now not even confident of beating Palace...
 

Player Ratings

5.7 Total Average Rating

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Compiled from 335 ratings.

Score Predictions

278,4,12
  • Man Utd win
  • Southampton win
  • Draw

Detailed Results

  • 21% Man Utd 3:0 Southampton
  • 20% Man Utd 3:1 Southampton
  • 18% Man Utd 2:0 Southampton
  • 16% Man Utd 2:1 Southampton
  • 7% Man Utd 4:0 Southampton
  • 6% Man Utd 4:1 Southampton
  • 3% Man Utd 5:0 Southampton
  • 2% Man Utd 1:1 Southampton
  • 2% Man Utd 3:2 Southampton
  • 2% Man Utd 2:2 Southampton
  • 2% Man Utd 1:0 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 0:1 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 0:5 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 4:2 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 2:3 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 5:1 Southampton
  • 0% Man Utd 1:2 Southampton
Compiled from 294 predictions.
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Match Stats

  1. Man Utd
  2. Southampton
Possession
47% 53%
Shots
8 9
Shots on Target
4 5
Corners
4 6
Fouls
14 15

Referee

Chris Kavanagh